White Nationalist mass protest turns to riot at University of Virginia

[realibrad]

Their stated goal is genocide. That is a GOAL, they are WORKING TOWARDS THIS GOAL.

How fucking stupid are you?

I agree that they want that as their goal. They have a long way to go before they even come close to attaining that goal though. So, because of that, lets try and do other things before using violence. Again, I'm not saying sit by and keep your fingers crossed. I am saying lets do other things and see if we can slow this thing down and stop it.

You have countless examples where violence has not stopped movements, so why do you think it will work here?

We should wait until they grow in numbers and then stop them? How did that work out last time around? They already have the support of Russia who are sponsoring parties and organizations both monetarily and ideologically. But hey, maybe Russia is small potatoes and we should do what was done last time around, sit around with our thumbs up our arses.

Do you have a reason for asking this over and over.

1. Do not sit by and hope they don't grow.
2. We should be active in trying to stop this movement, but it currently does not require violence which has historically made situations like this worse.
3. The current circumstances are different because the US is not even close to as dire of a situation as Germany and other countries where fascist movements took hold of the society.

The ME has been fucked for so long by so many different nations but no one has ever fucked the ME like the US has. When you get a bunch of desperate people who no longer have homes or who lost children/parents and introduce a violent ideology they will follow.

Agreed. The ME was fucked from the time of Khan. So we agree that no matter how much violence was thrown at them, their bad ideas stuck. What the US did in trying to spread good ideas through bombs only made it worse.

This does not explain how the fuck there are Nazis in the US or the UK.

Agreed, so lets understand how we got here and stop saying that what happened in Germany will happen here because things are different. Not saying it can't, just saying that because things are different we have a good chance of stopping this without mobs of people taking justice into their own hands.

I'm sorry but Nazism is an unacceptable ideology, if you are so fucked in the skull that you yearn for genocide and think your retarded arse is part of some master race you really, really, REALLY need to learn that being stupid or being evil has to hurt.

Well then better start those gas chambers, cause right now you have a lot to kill. Because if you truly believe these people cannot be helped, and their ideology is unacceptable and will inherently lead to genocide, then what option do you have other than killing them?

 

[JSt0rm]

So who did you post your comment for when you responded to me? Was it for me, or for other people whom already agree with you? Why not just explain it to me?

so confused. How do you have a job? What do you do for a living?

 

[bshole]

I do think that some people are literally so easily brought to these ideologies (ISIS, Nazism, Al Q and so on) that it's unavoidable.

What's your take on how ISIS is being dealt with? No sore feeling for those precious belief holders being callously killed?

Punching a Nazi or an antifa member serves a purpose you fool, it shows that their idiocy is not tolerated. If enough people do it they will eventually get the idea, it hurts like fuck to be a retarded Nazi boi.

You can't bomb and murder your way throughout the Middle East and expect to eliminate terrorism. I have attached an article which goes into some depth on this very topic. The primary consensus of the scientists and experts referenced in the article is that bombing ISIS/terrorists is doing more harm than good. It is pretty telling that in the areas that we are bombing, WE are considered a bigger threat to safety and security than ISIS.

Cabayan runs the Pentagon’s Strategic Multilayer Assessment (SMA) programme. His counter-terrorism unit taps the expertise of a volunteer pool of 300 scientists from academia, industry, intelligence agencies and military universities. They convene virtually and physically to answer classified and unclassified questions from combatants, including special operations forces fighting ISIS in Syria and Iraq. The result is a steady stream of white papers largely concluding that the US counter-terrorism strategy – decapitating insurgency leadership, bombing terrorist strongholds – is counter-productive.
:
Cabayan praises Mironova’s “brave” style of research, and the data from the ground that it brings. At the SMA meeting in March this year, the question was whether the physical defeat of ISIS in Mosul would eliminate the threat. Sixty scientists, including Mironova, examined the problem from a variety of perspectives. Their unequivocal answer was no. Events so far bear out that prediction.
:
It is an agile trajectory. Statistical models built around what is known of the frequency and casualty counts of insurgent and terrorist incidents in Syria and Iraq show the jihadists as Davids and conventional armies as lumbering Goliaths. The extremist groups can fragment and coalesce with relative ease: they are “anti-fragile”, strengthening under attack. They are not wedded to charismatic leaders, but are self-organising networks that can operate independently of a single node of control, and have a ready source of new personnel.
:
Drone strikes aimed at decapitating terrorist cells are likely to fail too. A 2017 study by Jennifer Varriale Carson at the University of Central Missouri concluded that killing high-profile jihadists is “counter-productive, if its main intention is a decrease in terrorism perpetrated by the global jihadist movement”. In July 2016, The Georgetown Public Policy Review reported a “statistically significant rise in the number of terrorist attacks [in Pakistan] occurring after the US drone program begins targeting a given province“.
:
Terrorist groups are seldom defeated by military force; they either achieve political solutions, or they wither away because grievances are solved or dissipate, or they alienate their supporters through excess brutality. Conversely, the US-led bombings of civilians in Fallujah and Mosul in Iraq and Raqqa in Syria, and the atrocities now being committed by the Iraqi liberators against ISIS suspects and their families, risk creating a new round of Sunni grievances.
:
According to a Pentagon-funded meta study of public opinion polls taken during 2015 and 2016, the “vast majority” of Muslims in Iraq and Syria do not support ISIS. But those who do cite religion or ideology far less than social, economic and governance grievances. And in Mosul, the study said, 46 per cent of the population believed coalition air strikes were the biggest threat to the security of their families, while 38 per cent said ISIS was the greatest threat.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...r-what-makes-normal-people-become-extremists/

 

[realibrad]

No. The reparations ended in mid 1932, months before Hitler took power.

I should have said is "People started to go along with what he said because of previous racism, but also because he was offering improving things by casting off the real reason for their poverty which were the sanctions from WWI.

It is correct that the government collapsed and payments stopped even before 1932. The point remains that it was a perfect storm that allowed Hitler to take power beyond racism.

 

[JSt0rm]

I should have said is "People started to go along with what he said because of previous racism, but also because he was offering improving things by casting off the real reason for their poverty which were the sanctions from WWI.

It is correct that the government collapsed and payments stopped even before 1932. The point remains that it was a perfect storm that allowed Hitler to take power beyond racism.

Wtf do you do for a living? Like I need context.

 

[J.Wilkins]

You can't bomb and murder your way throughout the Middle East and expect to eliminate terrorism.

I'm not even going to get into that since we for the very most part agree (look at my earlier post on this) but what do you propose be done about ISIS?

My opinion is full war, troops on ground, precision strikes and eradication without bombing the everliving shit out of civilians. Involve every nation on earth that wants to be a part of the UN.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I should have said is "People started to go along with what he said because of previous racism, but also because he was offering improving things by casting off the real reason for their poverty which were the sanctions from WWI.

It is correct that the government collapsed and payments stopped even before 1932. The point remains that it was a perfect storm that allowed Hitler to take power beyond racism.

Really, so the famous Göbbels tactics used were not used according to you and not a reason why he garnered the support he did?

It had absolutely FUCK ALL to do with racism, I can tell you that much.

 

[Younigue]

I agree that they want that as their goal. They have a long way to go before they even come close to attaining that goal though. So, because of that, lets try and do other things before using violence. Again, I'm not saying sit by and keep your fingers crossed. I am saying lets do other things and see if we can slow this thing down and stop it.

You have countless examples where violence has not stopped movements, so why do you think it will work here?



Do you have a reason for asking this over and over.

1. Do not sit by and hope they don't grow.
2. We should be active in trying to stop this movement, but it currently does not require violence which has historically made situations like this worse.
3. The current circumstances are different because the US is not even close to as dire of a situation as Germany and other countries where fascist movements took hold of the society.



Agreed. The ME was fucked from the time of Khan. So we agree that no matter how much violence was thrown at them, their bad ideas stuck. What the US did in trying to spread good ideas through bombs only made it worse.



Agreed, so lets understand how we got here and stop saying that what happened in Germany will happen here because things are different. Not saying it can't, just saying that because things are different we have a good chance of stopping this without mobs of people taking justice into their own hands.



Well then better start those gas chambers, cause right now you have a lot to kill. Because if you truly believe these people cannot be helped, and their ideology is unacceptable and will inherently lead to genocide, then what option do you have other than killing them?

The election of this President speaks volumes to me about their growth. The climate within the country speaks volumes. I mentioned it before, you're trying to make small something that is no longer small. You are trying to make simple something that is certainly not simple... and yes, entered the realm of action. Of course they must be deterred, the time is not some time in the future while they grow. It's the human condition to pump out people prone to indoctrination. And though many programs (probably cut now) and good humans are working that angle it's too little in the face of this threat you want to convince yourself is still yet benign. There is nothing about them that is benign. Again, they don't even want to be seen as such. They want to be seen as a threat. They want to be taken seriously. Well, seriously in a way that gets them what they want and to be seen as mighty and powerful and right. But in a functioning society (yes, that's getting harder and harder to state as a plausible truth) 'seriously' means stopping them. They have grown too big already. Do you think they would voluntarily/peacefully subject themselves to deprogramming? The answer is no but en masse that would have to happen followed by publicly and honestly expressing remorse and renouncing Nazism.

You're fooling yourself if you don't think the problem has already grown too big. They are a problem on their own add to that a President seemingly approving of them.

You gotta let this line of discussion go. You're not wrong per se but you are most certainly not right.

 

[J.Wilkins]

The election of this President speaks volumes to me about their growth. The climate within the country speaks volumes. I mentioned it before, you're trying to make small something that is no longer small. You are trying to make simple something that is certainly not simple... and yes, entered the realm of action. Of course they must be deterred, the time is not some time in the future while they grow. It's the human condition to pump out people prone to indoctrination. And though many programs (probably cut now) and good humans are working that angle it's too little in the face of this threat you want to convince yourself is still yet benign. There is nothing about them that is benign. Again, they don't even want to be seen as such. They want to be seen as a threat. They want to be taken seriously. Well, seriously in a way that gets them what they want and to be seen as mighty and powerful and right. But in a functioning society (yes, that's getting harder and harder to state as a plausible truth) 'seriously' means stopping them. They have grown too big already. Do you think they would voluntarily/peacefully subject themselves to deprogramming? The answer is no but en masse that would have to happen followed by publicly and honestly expressing remorse and renouncing Nazism.

Your fooling yourself if you don't think the problem has already grown too big. They are a problem on their own add to that a President seemingly approving of them.

You gotta let this line of discussion go. You're not wrong per se but you are most certainly not right.

In a perfect world where everyone could be reasoned with he'd be right but in this world he's wrong.

 

[realibrad]

Really, so the famous Göbbels tactics used were not used according to you and not a reason why he garnered the support he did?

It had absolutely FUCK ALL to do with racism, I can tell you that much.

Again, racism was a huge part, but it also took many other parts to fall into place. A collapsed government, economic ruin which caused desperation ect. To think racism was the only factor that lead to the rise of Hitler is wrong.

Also, having fuck all means it does not have any connection. I think you mean it was about racism. Does not detract from your point, but just something.

 

[realibrad]

I'm not even going to get into that since we for the very most part agree (look at my earlier post on this) but what do you propose be done about ISIS?

My opinion is full war, troops on ground, precision strikes and eradication without bombing the everliving shit out of civilians. Involve every nation on earth that wants to be a part of the UN.

Funny, you tell me the real world does not work the way I say it should, but you want war that does not have large civilian casualties. Not sure what you think is going to happen with ISIS sense they live and work among their civilian captives.

 

[realibrad]

The election of this President speaks volumes to me about their growth. The climate within the country speaks volumes. I mentioned it before, you're trying to make small something that is no longer small. You are trying to make simple something that is certainly not simple... and yes, entered the realm of action. Of course they must be deterred, the time is not some time in the future while they grow. It's the human condition to pump out people prone to indoctrination. And though many programs (probably cut now) and good humans are working that angle it's too little in the face of this threat you want to convince yourself is still yet benign. There is nothing about them that is benign. Again, they don't even want to be seen as such. They want to be seen as a threat. They want to be taken seriously. Well, seriously in a way that gets them what they want and to be seen as mighty and powerful and right. But in a functioning society (yes, that's getting harder and harder to state as a plausible truth) 'seriously' means stopping them. They have grown too big already. Do you think they would voluntarily/peacefully subject themselves to deprogramming? The answer is no but en masse that would have to happen followed by publicly and honestly expressing remorse and renouncing Nazism.

You're fooling yourself if you don't think the problem has already grown too big. They are a problem on their own add to that a President seemingly approving of them.

You gotta let this line of discussion go. You're not wrong per se but you are most certainly not right.

So tell me, what is the solution? How do you stop these people in your eyes at this point?

 

[agent00f]

The election of this President speaks volumes to me about their growth. The climate within the country speaks volumes. I mentioned it before, you're trying to make small something that is no longer small. You are trying to make simple something that is certainly not simple... and yes, entered the realm of action. Of course they must be deterred, the time is not some time in the future while they grow. It's the human condition to pump out people prone to indoctrination. And though many programs (probably cut now) and good humans are working that angle it's too little in the face of this threat you want to convince yourself is still yet benign. There is nothing about them that is benign. Again, they don't even want to be seen as such. They want to be seen as a threat. They want to be taken seriously. Well, seriously in a way that gets them what they want and to be seen as mighty and powerful and right. But in a functioning society (yes, that's getting harder and harder to state as a plausible truth) 'seriously' means stopping them. They have grown too big already. Do you think they would voluntarily/peacefully subject themselves to deprogramming? The answer is no but en masse that would have to happen followed by publicly and honestly expressing remorse and renouncing Nazism.

Your fooling yourself if you don't think the problem has already grown too big. They are a problem on their own add to that a President seemingly approving of them.

You gotta let this line of discussion go. You're not wrong per se but you are most certainly not right.

Pretty much every conservative left on the forum was in this thread eagerly taking a bullet to protect the nazis/klan. Now I suppose they might all be paste-eating helmet-wearing imbeciles as some liberals propose, but their behavior is pretty much in line with broader GOP interests to retain enough racists to still win elections.

The gop base looks pretty big to me; even bigger when you include totally-not-conservatives like realibrad & co.

 

[realibrad]

In a perfect world where everyone could be reasoned with he'd be right but in this world he's wrong.

In a perfect world we go to war and kill only the bad guys but your world is wrong. Better still go to war and accept all the casualties because we have no other option.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Again, racism was a huge part, but it also took many other parts to fall into place. A collapsed government, economic ruin which caused desperation ect. To think racism was the only factor that lead to the rise of Hitler is wrong.

Also, having fuck all means it does not have any connection. I think you mean it was about racism. Does not detract from your point, but just something.

No, the enemy within was the fucking idea and it wasn't because of "race" or even ethnicity, it was because they were an easily identifiable target that they could use in their tactic.

EXACTLY the same thing Trump did and exactly the same thing these Nazis are doing.

Ever heard about the waitandsee tribe?

 

[alien42]

Again, racism was a huge part, but it also took many other parts to fall into place. A collapsed government, economic ruin which caused desperation ect. To think racism was the only factor that lead to the rise of Hitler is wrong.

at first i thought you were talking about Trump but then i got to "economic ruin" and thought, that can't be right. that makes it seem like racism was a bigger factor in getting Trump elected than Hitler. i truly do hope that is not the case.

 

[J.Wilkins]

In a perfect world we go to war and kill only the bad guys but your world is wrong. Better still go to war and accept all the casualties because we have no other option.

No, I still support that and it's entirely doable (with minimal amount of civilian casualties).

Reasoning with people who have decided that reality is wrong and their reality that they have made up is right is completely impossible.

Example: You.

 

[realibrad]

No, the enemy within was the fucking idea and it wasn't because of "race" or even ethnicity, it was because they were an easily identifiable target that they could use in their tactic.

EXACTLY the same thing Trump did and exactly the same thing these Nazis are doing.

Ever heard about the waitandsee tribe?

So you don't think it was because of racism?

 

[realibrad]

at first i thought you were talking about Trump but then i got to "economic ruin" and thought, that can't be right. that makes it seem like racism was a bigger factor in getting Trump elected than Hitler. i truly do hope that is not the case.

I was talking about what allowed Hitler to take power. I have been saying that we in the US are not in the same situation as post WWI Germany and those differences means we are better able to fight this movement.

 

[realibrad]

No, I still support that and it's entirely doable (with minimal amount of civilian casualties).

Reasoning with people who have decided that reality is wrong and their reality that they have made up is right is completely impossible.

Example: You.

I suppose that is a whole other discussion.

My point is, we are not the same as Post WWI German and as such we can do things they could not. We also don't need to resort to violence yet, but you think we do.

I have asked you multiple times now. If you don't think you can get these people to change their mind through violence at the level of hitting them, what will you do after that does not work?

 

[Younigue]

So tell me, what is the solution? How do you stop these people in your eyes at this point?

We've already talked, you and me.

If there are people willing to put a stop to them, I'm for it. I just know that I myself can't perpetrate violence upon anyone. And neither are you willing. Your "solutions" leave far too much room for growth among their numbers.

Why are you belaboring your point. I think everyone understands what you are saying, they disagree. Your solution (though less violent to begin with) is no better than their's or mine. Violence is inevitable. But so is dismantling their lives. It is not a single pronged attack that will stop them.

Any way, I think you should stop. You've changed no one's mind, so to what end do you continue?

 

[alien42]

I was talking about what allowed Hitler to take power. I have been saying that we in the US are not in the same situation as post WWI Germany and those differences means we are better able to fight this movement.

i know what you were talking about and my point was that while Germany was going through economic ruin before the election of Hitler, the US was doing quite well economically before the election of Trump. to me that indicates that race may have been a bigger factor in the election of Trump than Hitler.

 

[realibrad]

We've already talked, you and me.

If there are people willing to put a stop to them, I'm for it. I just know that I myself can't perpetrate violence upon anyone. And neither are you willing. Your "solutions" leave far too much room for growth among their numbers.

Why are you belaboring your point. I think everyone understands what you are saying, they disagree. Your solution (though less violent to begin with) is no better than their's or mine. Violence is inevitable. But so is dismantling their lives. It is not a single pronged attack that will stop them.

Any way, I think you should stop. You've changed no one's mind, so to what end do you continue?

So you are okay with others doing your dirty work? I mean this quite literally, that is sad.

I continue in hopes that I can help sway people. If I fail, violence happens, If I do nothing, violence happens.

 

[realibrad]

i know what you were talking about and my point was that while Germany was going through economic ruin before the election of Hitler, the US was doing quite well economically before the election of Trump. to me that indicates that race may have been a bigger factor in the election of Trump than Hitler.

Are you trying to say Trump is equal to Hitler? If not them I'm confused. We have a movement building that has its base in racism. That movement left unchecked will lead to horrible things. There are those trying to argue that those horrible things are inevitable and as such, require violence to deal with them even if it goes as far as murder to prevent what they see as inevitable. I think its not inevitable because the movement in Germany does not share key elements that we can exploit to stop this movement before violence is required.

So we have one group saying we cannot stop this movement without violence up to even murder.
I am saying we can still stop this movement without violence because we still have a lot going for us.

 

[alien42]

Are you trying to say Trump is equal to Hitler? If not them I'm confused.

no, just comparing their rise to power and the social and economic factors involved. while i find Trump to be immoral, corrupt, unethical, and a breeder of hate and bigotry, he has not committed genocide.

We have a movement building that has its base in racism. That movement left unchecked will lead to horrible things. There are those trying to argue that those horrible things are inevitable and as such, require violence to deal with them even if it goes as far as murder to prevent what they see as inevitable. I think its not inevitable because the movement in Germany does not share key elements that we can exploit to stop this movement before violence is required.

So we have one group saying we cannot stop this movement without violence up to even murder.
I am saying we can still stop this movement without violence because we still have a lot going for us.

for starters, we need a President who identifies them as terrorists and federal law enforcement that monitors and keeps track of them. it's the next part that's supposed to be the most difficult, not that first part.