Discussion Who takes ULTIMATE blame for Afghanistan fiasco? Does Biden deserve full blame? Other President?

[Remobz]

Good day ladies and gentlemen. A new topic to discuss today.

Disclaimer*********

I am NOT from USA. I am a foreigner simply trying to be objective and create a discussion about the whole Afghanistan mess. With that said, I have no loyalties to any US political parties.

Alright, as for you Americans please try and be objective in how we approach this question. Let us put the blame in an objective manner if we can?

I will ask some questions for us to ponder about who gets the ultimate blame.

1) Was USA justified in invading Afghanistan? Could it have been handled another way?

2) Why did Bush shift focus on a false flag war when Taliban were on the ropes? Why didn't Bush send the same men and equipment like in the Iraqi invasion to finally destroy the Taliban or chase them out of the Country? Could Bush have won the war in the early stages but screwed it up instead?

3) For the Trump supporters here. Why didn't Trump pull the troops out under his watch? Trump had 5 years to do it. Did he pass the buck to Biden on purpose knowing it would be a failure in some way? No withdrawals are ever clean and easy to do in war zones.

Yes, we can criticize many things done wrong under Biden watch concerning the withdrawal. Was it always doomed to failure? I mean not like he could take back all the weapons from Afghan Army thinking they would mostly fall into Taliban hands. One would assume any President would expect Afghan Army to fight it out with US supplied weapons right? Not complete defeat and surrender in weeks right?

Does the ULTIMATE blame go to George Bush? Could Bush have won it in the early stages with an Iraqi style surge? Was every other President doomed to failure after Bush left as President? Would Trump have done a PERFECT withdrawal or done right way whatever that means?

What do you all think?

 

[Remobz]

Guys remember the question is who takes the ULTIMATE blame for losing the war. Does Biden deserve ALL the blame?

 

[Indus]

Bush for trying to change hearts and minds instead of focusing on Bin Laden and starting Iraq to distract.

Then Trump for a shitty withdrawal strategy that left it with only a token force so the only option was to withdraw.

Obama for not packing up after BinLaden was dead.

Biden actually gets the lowest blame of anyone.. he accepted facts and got us out.

65% Bush, 9.99% Obama, 25% Trump, 0.01% Biden

 

[zinfamous]

Um, Dubya, right?

Isn't that kind of obvious when he decided to reroute attention to Iraq early on, when we had bin Laden and the leadership structure of Al Qaeda completely cornered at Tora Bora?

Obviously Afghanistan could have been a vastly different situation if Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld bloodlust didn't drive their tiny-dick thinking over to another completely unrelated-to-anything country just to go ham and murder some 600k+ civilians for literally no reason but their own death cult satisfaction.

 

[iRONic]

Hmmm, somebody got a thread starting inch…

 

[conehead433]

Not only was Afghanistan completely unrelated they had no natural resources like OIL, so there were zero reasons for being there. And then the US completely botched the whole affair by not doing what was needed in Afghanistan. The only real source of income the Taliban had was poppy fields, and all the US had to do was torch every single poppy field in the country. Of course chances are the opium/heroin trade was most likely a major source of income for the Afghan government as well. Destroying the poppy fields would have resulted in Afghanistan basically being throw back into the Stone Age, which is not terribly different from where they are now. Blame the puppeteer or the marionette as you like but GW Bush was not smart enough to instigate the invasion so my vote goes to Dick Cheney, the mastermind of the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions. He will forever be a shitstain on US history.

 

[shortylickens]

 

[conehead433]

Dude, you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[zinfamous]

Not only was Afghanistan completely unrelated they had no natural resources like OIL, so there were zero reasons for being there. And then the US completely botched the whole affair by not doing what was needed in Afghanistan. The only real source of income the Taliban had was poppy fields, and all the US had to do was torch every single poppy field in the country. Of course chances are the opium/heroin trade was most likely a major source of income for the Afghan government as well. Destroying the poppy fields would have resulted in Afghanistan basically being throw back into the Stone Age, which is not terribly different from where they are now. Blame the puppeteer or the marionette as you like but GW Bush was not smart enough to instigate the invasion so my vote goes to Dick Cheney, the mastermind of the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions. He will forever be a shitstain on US history.

Important to consider that the US strategy...for pretty much forever in Afghanistan, relied on the "northern alliance" of terrorist warlords for intel and targeting--basically these were the assholes that were terrorizing all the afghan people in their regions, and just used the US as their own personal assassination squad to deal with their rivals. That's exactly what the US military did for so long.

Burning the poppy fields would have been a disaster; rather incentivize the farmers to grow something else--and even if the land is mostly non-arable, it's not like we don't already pay US "corn farmers" 10s of billions per years to essentially sit on fields of dirt, if they aren't growing completely unpalatable corn for intensely wasteful production practices.

 

[rommelrommel]

Not only was Afghanistan completely unrelated they had no natural resources like OIL, so there were zero reasons for being there. And then the US completely botched the whole affair by not doing what was needed in Afghanistan. The only real source of income the Taliban had was poppy fields, and all the US had to do was torch every single poppy field in the country. Of course chances are the opium/heroin trade was most likely a major source of income for the Afghan government as well. Destroying the poppy fields would have resulted in Afghanistan basically being throw back into the Stone Age, which is not terribly different from where they are now. Blame the puppeteer or the marionette as you like but GW Bush was not smart enough to instigate the invasion so my vote goes to Dick Cheney, the mastermind of the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions. He will forever be a shitstain on US history.

They should have just bought up the opium, suppression efforts just piss off the locals because it's what they know. Market price is next to nothing at the source.

 

[rommelrommel]

1) Yes, although not justified in staying nearly as long as they did.

2) Bush did "win." The Taliban collapsed as a government almost immediately. Beating an insurgency is a different kettle of fish. Really "winning" would have been leaving fairly quickly.

3) Trump was incompetent at accomplishing much of anything, but Biden more or less finished Trump's withdrawal plan. I don't think anyone should be "blamed" at all for leaving. I actually give Trump some credit for starting the withdrawal. The Afghan government was gonna collapse no matter what after two decades.

 

[woolfe9998]

It's debatable how the actual withdrawal was handled. The tabliban were going to take over regardless. It was only a question of how quickly it happened.

What isn't debatable is that the prolonged war needed to end after 19 years. And Biden finally got us out. Come election time, that is mostly what people are going to remember. Obama and Trump reduced our footprint and played with getting us out, but only Biden was willing to rip the bandaid off.

 

[WelshBloke]

Not only was Afghanistan completely unrelated they had no natural resources like OIL, so there were zero reasons for being there. And then the US completely botched the whole affair by not doing what was needed in Afghanistan. The only real source of income the Taliban had was poppy fields, and all the US had to do was torch every single poppy field in the country. Of course chances are the opium/heroin trade was most likely a major source of income for the Afghan government as well. Destroying the poppy fields would have resulted in Afghanistan basically being throw back into the Stone Age, which is not terribly different from where they are now. Blame the puppeteer or the marionette as you like but GW Bush was not smart enough to instigate the invasion so my vote goes to Dick Cheney, the mastermind of the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions. He will forever be a shitstain on US history.

IIRC the Taliban offered to totally stop all opium production, the West went "Hell no!"

 

[Moonbeam]

The cause is the same as for the war in Viet Nam. American fear of loss of status and power in the world, fear of the imagined weakness of humility, makes it possible for politicians to use bravado as a tool for winning elections. Only those successful at competition like winning wars are worth anything. Peacemakers and lovers of life aren't worth shit.

The cause of war is the sleep of ignorance that is caused by the fear of seeing the truth. We lust for it in the naive dream that the vicarious emotional stimulation that war will bring, the misery it will inflict, will awaken us to life. We do not want to see that our deep disgust with life equates to being disgusting ourselves and all of which comes from the fact that's how we were already made to feel.

 

[Pens1566]

I'd suggest the ones that got us into it in the first place, and then the ones that agreed to the exit plan with the Taliban as those holding primary responsibility.

 

[Remobz]

It's debatable how the actual withdrawal was handled. The tabliban were going to take over regardless. It was only a question of how quickly it happened.

What isn't debatable is that the prolonged war needed to end after 19 years. And Biden finally got us out. Come election time, that is mostly what people are going to remember. Obama and Trump reduced our footprint and played with getting us out, but only Biden was willing to rip the bandaid off.

I just thought of something. I wonder if Trump's advisors knew that withdrawal would be ugly and a mess. Trump being Trump ONLY wants perfect results for his image. So, maybe Trump knew with upcoming elections that a failure in Afghanistan before the mid terms elections would ruin him. Maybe he delayed on purpose in case Biden would win then the headache would go to Biden instead. What do you think?

I personally feel no matter who the President was it would still end in some sort of disaster and the Afghan Army would still collapse and lose all of its equipment. One has to understand the Afghan mentality in that they do things with a tribal mentality of mistrust and corruption. That Country will always be at war or divided due to tribal mentality and culture of corruption.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Afghanistan, it is their fucking Country. Too many greedy shitheads and many are more than willing to backstab someone for a few coins.
It. Is. Their. Problem.

 

[UNCjigga]

1. Soviet Union for invading Afghanistan in the first place

2. Bush Sr./Reagan/arms dealers for arming the Mujahideen against Soviets and starting a small arms race between every clan/tribe/faction

3. Taliban, for being the Taliban

4. GWB/Cheney for focusing on regime change vs. the Taliban and Saddam/Iraq vs. finishing the job against Bin Laden.

5. Hamid Karzai (general ineptness and corruption)

6. Obama for not finishing the job after Bin Laden’s death.

7. El Trumpo for putting his foot in his mouth re: withdrawal.

8. Biden for the actual hasty withdrawal

—
Even Trump is pretty far down the blame list.

 

[Remobz]

1) Yes, although not justified in staying nearly as long as they did.

2) Bush did "win." The Taliban collapsed as a government almost immediately. Beating an insurgency is a different kettle of fish. Really "winning" would have been leaving fairly quickly.

3) Trump was incompetent at accomplishing much of anything, but Biden more or less finished Trump's withdrawal plan. I don't think anyone should be "blamed" at all for leaving. I actually give Trump some credit for starting the withdrawal. The Afghan government was gonna collapse no matter what after two decades.

Taliban Agrees to Surrender Kandahar

abcnews.go.com

That article said that the Taliban wanted a peace deal. Rumsfeld was the one that wanted Taliban leader dead or arrested. I wonder if Bush would of made some deal on his own if not for Rumsfeld being there.

Then again, look at this link about the Iraqi invasion.

2003 invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Imagine a force of that size to completely take over ALL of Afghanistan and kill Bin Laden along with most Taliban. Think about it. A force that size could really accomplish a lot. Do you agree?

Then again, how long would the pace last? I think Afghanistan is just not good to occupy for long. FULL STOP!! LOL! Get in and get out not long after.

 

[Remobz]

1. Soviet Union for invading Afghanistan in the first place

2. Bush Sr./Reagan/arms dealers for arming the Mujahideen against Soviets and starting a small arms race between every clan/tribe/faction

3. Taliban, for being the Taliban

4. GWB/Cheney for focusing on regime change vs. the Taliban and Saddam/Iraq vs. finishing the job against Bin Laden.

5. Hamid Karzai (general ineptness and corruption)

6. Obama for not finishing the job after Bin Laden’s death.

7. El Trumpo for putting his foot in his mouth re: withdrawal.

8. Biden for the actual hasty withdrawal

—
Even Trump is pretty far down the blame list.

2003 invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bush takes the Ultimate blame. Taliban wanted a peace deal and Rumsfeld said NO! And watch how massive that invasion force was for Iraqi invasion. Check the link out. The Taliban would almost cease to exist as a fighting force if Bush used it to conquer all of Afghanistan. Bush instead started the false flag war in Iraq. Wasted opportunity? What do you think?

 

[Moonbeam]

2003 invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bush takes the Ultimate blame. Taliban wanted a peace deal and Rumsfeld said NO! And watch how massive that invasion force was for Iraqi invasion. Check the link out. The Taliban would almost cease to exist as a fighting force if Bush used it to conquer all of Afghanistan. Bush instead started the false flag war in Iraq. Wasted opportunity? What do you think?

I think the Republican party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Big Oil Inc. Military power is used to lay pipelines of riches to line shareholder's pockets and keep CEOs in power. If you don't do the bleeding of the sheep someone else happily will. It's part of the pleasure of competition, the rewards of being soulless.

 

[hal2kilo]

I think the Republican party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Big Oil Inc. Military power is used to lay pipelines of riches to line shareholder's pockets and keep CEOs in power. If you don't do the bleeding of the sheep someone else happily will. It's part of the pleasure of competition, the rewards of being soulless.

Kind of like this.

ending scene from day of the condor - Bing video

www.bing.com

 

[woolfe9998]

I just thought of something. I wonder if Trump's advisors knew that withdrawal would be ugly and a mess. Trump being Trump ONLY wants perfect results for his image. So, maybe Trump knew with upcoming elections that a failure in Afghanistan before the mid terms elections would ruin him. Maybe he delayed on purpose in case Biden would win then the headache would go to Biden instead. What do you think?

I personally feel no matter who the President was it would still end in some sort of disaster and the Afghan Army would still collapse and lose all of its equipment. One has to understand the Afghan mentality in that they do things with a tribal mentality of mistrust and corruption. That Country will always be at war or divided due to tribal mentality and culture of corruption.

It may well be that both Obama and Trump knew the Taliban were likely to take over after a total withdrawal, which is why they kept reducing our footprint but wouldn't ever quite take the final step. They'd rather have that be on a future POTUS.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Good day ladies and gentlemen. A new topic to discuss today.

Disclaimer*********

I am NOT from USA. I am a foreigner simply trying to be objective and create a discussion about the whole Afghanistan mess. With that said, I have no loyalties to any US political parties.

Alright, as for you Americans please try and be objective in how we approach this question. Let us put the blame in an objective manner if we can?

I will ask some questions for us to ponder about who gets the ultimate blame.

1) Was USA justified in invading Afghanistan? Could it have been handled another way?

2) Why did Bush shift focus on a false flag war when Taliban were on the ropes? Why didn't Bush send the same men and equipment like in the Iraqi invasion to finally destroy the Taliban or chase them out of the Country? Could Bush have won the war in the early stages but screwed it up instead?

3) For the Trump supporters here. Why didn't Trump pull the troops out under his watch? Trump had 5 years to do it. Did he pass the buck to Biden on purpose knowing it would be a failure in some way? No withdrawals are ever clean and easy to do in war zones.

Yes, we can criticize many things done wrong under Biden watch concerning the withdrawal. Was it always doomed to failure? I mean not like he could take back all the weapons from Afghan Army thinking they would mostly fall into Taliban hands. One would assume any President would expect Afghan Army to fight it out with US supplied weapons right? Not complete defeat and surrender in weeks right?

Does the ULTIMATE blame go to George Bush? Could Bush have won it in the early stages with an Iraqi style surge? Was every other President doomed to failure after Bush left as President? Would Trump have done a PERFECT withdrawal or done right way whatever that means?

What do you all think?

1) Yes, but we should have cornered and killed Bin Laden at Tora Bora and left.

2) Bush is the worst president post 2000. I mean I literally rate him worse than Trump for his fuck-ups in Afghanistan and starting the iraq war.

3) Not a Trump supporter. Fuck that asshole in his pisshole.

 

[Remobz]

It may well be that both Obama and Trump knew the Taliban were likely to take over after a total withdrawal, which is why they kept reducing our footprint but wouldn't ever quite take the final step. They'd rather have that be on a future POTUS.

Yeah, most likely. I mean Trump had 5 years to do something. Trump supporters seem to forget this fact. Trump was the one screaming to get out of there and attacked Obama for it. Trump supporters love blaming Biden for the whole mess. Trump had 5 years to do something. I am convinced Trump would screw something up as well. And the Afghan Army would still collapse and lose many weapons to the Taliban.