"Who would have thought the Americans could have made it worse for women? This is liberation?""

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Veiled and Worried in Baghdad
By LAUREN SANDLER
Veiled and Worried in Baghdad

BAGHDAD, Iraq

A single word is on the tight, pencil-lined lips of women here. You'll
hear it spoken over lunch at a women's leadership conference in a
restaurant off busy Al Nidal Street, in a shade-darkened beauty shop in
upscale Mansour, in the ramshackle ghettos of Sadr City. The word is
"himaya," or security. With an intensity reminiscent of how they feared
Saddam Hussein, women now fear the abduction, rape and murder that have
become rampant here since his regime fell. Life for Iraqi women has been
reduced to one need that must be met before anything else can happen.

"Under Saddam we could drive, we could walk down the street until two in
the morning," a young designer told me as she bounced her 4-year-old
daughter on her lap. "Who would have thought the Americans could have
made it worse for women? This is liberation?"

In their palace surrounded by armed soldiers, officials from the
occupying forces talk about democracy. But in the same cool marble rooms,
when one mentions the fears of the majority of Iraq's population, one can
hear a representative of the Ministry of the Interior, which oversees the
police, say, "We don't do women." What they don't seem to realize is that
you can't do democracy if you don't do women.

In Afghanistan, women threw off their burqas when American forces
arrived. In Baghdad the veils have multiplied, and most women are hiding
at home instead of working, studying or playing a role in reconstructing
Iraq. Under Saddam Hussein, crimes against women - or at least ones his
son Uday, Iraq's vicious Caligula, did not commit - were relatively rare
(though solid statistics for such crimes don't exist). Last October, the
regime opened the doors to the prisons. Kidnappers, rapists and murderers
were allowed to blend back into society, but they were kept in check by
the police state. When the Americans arrived and the police force
disappeared, however, these old predators re-emerged alongside new ones.
And in a country that essentially relies on rumor as its national news,
word of sadistic abduction quickly began to spread.

A young Iraqi woman I met represents the reality of these rumors, sitting
in her darkened living room surrounded by female relatives. She leans
forward to show the sutures running the length of her scalp. She and her
fiancé were carjacked by a gang of thieves in July, and when one tried to
rape her she threw herself out of the speeding car. She says that was the
last time she left the house. She hasn't heard a word from her fiancé
since he went to the police station to file a report, not about the
attempted rape, but about his missing Toyota RAV-4.

"What's important isn't a woman's life here, but a nice car," she said
with a blade-sharp laugh.

Two sisters, 13 and 18, weren't as lucky. A neighbor - a kidnapper and
murderer who had been released in the general amnesty - led a gang of
heavily armed friends to their home one night a few weeks ago. The girls
were beaten and raped. When the police finally arrived, the attackers
fled with the 13-year-old. She was taken to an abandoned house and left
there, blindfolded, for a couple of weeks before she was dropped at her
door upon threat of death if anyone learned of what had happened. Now she
hides out with her sister, young brother and mother in an abandoned
office building in a seedy neighborhood.

"What do you expect?" said the 18-year-old. "They let out the criminals.
They got rid of the law. Here we are."

Even these brutalized sisters are luckier than many women in Iraq. They
have no adult male relatives, and thus are not at risk for the honor
killings that claim the lives of many Muslim women here. Tribal custom
demands that a designated male kill a female relative who has been raped,
and the law allows only a maximum of three years in prison for such a
killing, which Iraqis call "washing the scandal."

"We never investigate these cases anyway - someone has to come and
confess the killing, which they almost never do," said an investigator
who looked into the case and then dismissed it because the sisters "knew
one of the men, so it must not be kidnapping."

This violence has made postwar Iraq a prison of fear for women. "This
issue of security is the immediate issue for women now - this horrible
time that was triggered the very first day of the invasion," said Yanar
Mohammed, the founder of the Organization of Women's Freedom in Iraq.

Ms. Mohammed organized a demonstration against the violence last month.
She also sent a letter to the occupation administrator, Paul Bremer,
demanding his attention. Weeks later, with no reply from Mr. Bremer, she
shook her head in the shadowy light of her office, darkened by one of
frequent blackouts here. "We want to be able to talk about other issues,
like the separation of mosque and state and the development of a civil
law based on equality between men and women, but when women can't even
leave their homes to discuss such things, our work is quite hard," she
said.

Baghdadi women were used to a cosmopolitan city in which doctorates,
debating and dancing into the wee hours were ordinary parts of life. That
Baghdad now seems as ancient as this country's Mesopotamian history.
College students are staying home; lawyers are avoiding their offices. A
formerly first-world capital has become a city where the women have
largely vanished.

To support their basic liberties will no doubt require the deeply
complicated task of disentangling the threads of tribal, Islamic and
civil law that have made the misogyny in each systemic. This is a matter
of culture, not just policy.

But to understand the culture of women in Iraq, coalition officials must
venture beyond their razor-wired checkpoints and step down from their
convoys of Land Cruisers so they can talk to the nation they occupy. On
the streets and in the markets, they'll receive warm invitations to share
enormous lunches in welcoming homes, as is the Iraqi custom. And there
they'll hear this notion repeated frankly and frequently: without himaya
for women, there will be no place for democracy to grow in Iraq.


Lauren Sandler, a journalist, is investigating issues of women and
culture in Iraq for the Carr Foundation.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
Make no mistake, we opened the Pandora's Box when we went into Iraq.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,420
293
126
Life is hell for Hussein's former aristocracy. RAV-4? Cosmopolitan living, dancing, and doctorates? Not for the vast majority of Iraqi women, only for Baathists who enjoyed this status because they were ardent supporters of the Baathist party and Hussein.

If you go to regions filled with Hussein's ardent supporters, I'm sure you'll find a lot of pissed-off people who liked it better when they were profiting from murder and oppression. So sad.

Had Old Baghdad Pete been around during WWII, he would have probably went to German communities full of National Socialist Party members to get their stories of how badly things were for them since the Allied Occupation and their opinions on the United States (without disclosing they were members of the Nazi Party and portraying them as 'average Germans' of course).
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
1
0
Iraq is slowly but surely turning into a islamic state (the fanatical kind, not moderate kind). Most people knew this would happen is hussein were removed. As nasty as he was, he was the only thing keeping the fanatics and criminals in their place.

Now if what I just read is true (the part about Bremer) I'm extremely disapointed in him. The lest he could have done is answer the letter, and/or sent someone in his place to look into this.

I find it interesting tho that certain people are avoiding this topic like the plague so far (exept for tcsenter). Guess they just don't want to deal with the negative things this war has caused (kinda like Bremer, who seems to be ignoring the average joe on the street).

Oh yeah, tcsenter. I find your reply sorta interesting. I mean, it's almost as if you're either asuming the people who are geting raped and kidnaped are all former Baath party members or supporters. That or you're just trying to avoid the whole subject by justfying the war.

Also, the way you asume the average joe on the street is somehow safer/better off, now that hussein is gone, even tho fanatics and criminals are running losse, is just sad.

Now, I and I'm sure everyone here agrees that hussein had to be removed sooner or later(he could have been contained and slowly but surely driven out of possition of power, but that's just my opinion). But removing a leader like that and effectivly destroying all branshes of goverment (legal and political) by banning everyone who had been affiliated with the Baath party was a major fuckup, which caused looting and anarcy in many places, due to the fact that there was no one left to enforce any type of laws/rules.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
Many people thought Saddam was crazy as shvt; but its turning out that he's actually been pretty damn smart with his ability to keep Iraq in one peice.

Only thing I fault Saddam for was trying to take Saudi Arabia back in 1990; had he not done that, Iraq would have had Kuwait and everything would be at peace.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Life is hell for Hussein's former aristocracy. RAV-4? Cosmopolitan living, dancing, and doctorates? Not for the vast majority of Iraqi women, only for Baathists who enjoyed this status because they were ardent supporters of the Baathist party and Hussein.

If you go to regions filled with Hussein's ardent supporters, I'm sure you'll find a lot of pissed-off people who liked it better when they were profiting from murder and oppression. So sad.

Had Old Baghdad Pete been around during WWII, he would have probably went to German communities full of National Socialist Party members to get their stories of how badly things were for them since the Allied Occupation and their opinions on the United States (without disclosing they were members of the Nazi Party and portraying them as 'average Germans' of course).
So wealthy women do not like rape but poor women do?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: sillyTIM
Many people thought Saddam was crazy as shvt; but its turning out that he's actually been pretty damn smart with his ability to keep Iraq in one peice.

Only thing I fault Saddam for was trying to take Saudi Arabia back in 1990; had he not done that, Iraq would have had Kuwait and everything would be at peace.
Stop Posting

 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
ooooh, i touched a sore spot with you, baby? shame

I guess you wouldn't also like hearing that George H. W. Bush in 1990 knew Saddam had a program he was actively working on creating nuclear weapons, and allowed it to go on.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: sillyTIM
Many people thought Saddam was crazy as shvt; but its turning out that he's actually been pretty damn smart with his ability to keep Iraq in one peice.

Only thing I fault Saddam for was trying to take Saudi Arabia back in 1990; had he not done that, Iraq would have had Kuwait and everything would be at peace.
Stop Posting

 

VioletAura

Banned
Aug 28, 2003
302
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Many people thought Saddam was crazy as shvt; but its turning out that he's actually been pretty damn smart with his ability to keep Iraq in one peice.

Only thing I fault Saddam for was trying to take Saudi Arabia back in 1990; had he not done that, Iraq would have had Kuwait and everything would be at peace.

He never tried to take Saudi Arabia. That was a big lie. "Desert Shield" was a farce. Any army trying to take saudi arabia will be up to their necks in blood... their own.
The US is now finding out how difficult it is to run Iraq with the treat of Islamic revolution just over the border, Saddam did what he had to do to keep Iraq together.
Women had more rights in Iraq than most other arab states, now they live in fear and under the threat of losing all their rights under a potential islamic state. Good job bush, how happy those women must be to liberated from Saddam only to lose everything.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
So the Iraqi people are raping their own women and this is our fault why? They were afraid to do it under Saddam but its OK now that he's gone? When are the Iraqi's gonna take blame for their own behavior.. Its not like the U.S. troops are raping them.. its THEIR OWN PEOPLE..

STOP RAPING YOUR WOMEN YOU MORONS.
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: VioletAura
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Many people thought Saddam was crazy as shvt; but its turning out that he's actually been pretty damn smart with his ability to keep Iraq in one peice.

Only thing I fault Saddam for was trying to take Saudi Arabia back in 1990; had he not done that, Iraq would have had Kuwait and everything would be at peace.

He never tried to take Saudi Arabia. That was a big lie. "Desert Shield" was a farce. Any army trying to take saudi arabia will be up to their necks in blood... their own.
The US is now finding out how difficult it is to run Iraq with the treat of Islamic revolution just over the border, Saddam did what he had to do to keep Iraq together.
Women had more rights in Iraq than most other arab states, now they live in fear and under the threat of losing all their rights under a potential islamic state. Good job bush, how happy those women must be to liberated from Saddam only to lose everything.



That is right. At least they had power to run their vacuum cleaners prior to our illegal war that destroyed their infrastructure.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
So the Iraqi people are raping their own women and this is our fault why? They were afraid to do it under Saddam but its OK now that he's gone? When are the Iraqi's gonna take blame for their own behavior.. Its not like the U.S. troops are raping them.. its THEIR OWN PEOPLE..

STOP RAPING YOUR WOMEN YOU MORONS.

Let's see how American behave if our police were gone and all court house were closed.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Life is hell for Hussein's former aristocracy. RAV-4? Cosmopolitan living, dancing, and doctorates? Not for the vast majority of Iraqi women, only for Baathists who enjoyed this status because they were ardent supporters of the Baathist party and Hussein.

If you go to regions filled with Hussein's ardent supporters, I'm sure you'll find a lot of pissed-off people who liked it better when they were profiting from murder and oppression. So sad.

Had Old Baghdad Pete been around during WWII, he would have probably went to German communities full of National Socialist Party members to get their stories of how badly things were for them since the Allied Occupation and their opinions on the United States (without disclosing they were members of the Nazi Party and portraying them as 'average Germans' of course).

So are you advocating this? Are they getting what they deserve?

"Two sisters, 13 and 18, weren't as lucky. A neighbor ? a kidnapper and murderer who had been released in the general amnesty ? led a gang of heavily armed friends to their home one night a few weeks ago. The girls were beaten and raped. When the police finally arrived, the attackers fled with the 13-year-old. She was taken to an abandoned house and left there, blindfolded, for a couple of weeks before she was dropped at her door upon threat of death if anyone learned of what had happened. Now she hides out with her sister, young brother and mother in an abandoned office building in a seedy neighborhood."

The article is about the terror Iraqi women must face everyday. Not about your obsession with Saddam and the Ba'ath Party.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,420
293
126
So wealthy women do not like rape but poor women do?
Don't you read?

The point was that these members of Hussein's protected and exclusive aristocracy are now living with the same realities all those disenfranchised Iraqis have been living with. Things got bad for Hitler's support base, too. So sad, too bad.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
saddam granted general amnesty and freed all prisoners. what do you expect. that and the islamic mysogonic view of women doesn't help
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Under Saddam Hussein, crimes against women - or at least ones his son Uday, Iraq's vicious Caligula, did not commit - were relatively rare (though solid statistics for such crimes don't exist). Last October, the regime opened the doors to the prisons. Kidnappers, rapists and murderers were allowed to blend back into society, but they were kept in check by the police state. When the Americans arrived and the police force disappeared, however, these old predators re-emerged alongside new ones.

I don't even think I can take this article seriously. The only piece of real, measurable evidence that seems to support this woman's assertion is in the first sentence of the above quote, but even she admits that the information isn't reliable! The rest of the article is a collection of emotional personal stories, and although they are horrible and tragic, they prove little about the general condition in Iraq, and serve only to make the Americans look like big evil conquerors. The people in Iraq now have political freedom and no longer have to fear being captured arbitrarily by Saddam and gassed or put in a meat shredder. And yet the author seems to think that Saddam was better than the American government because party supporters received Saddam's protection!

:disgust::|
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
Yeah, we give Iraqis political freedom when their desires happen to line up with ours. In other cases we suspend elections.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Stonewall
Under Saddam Hussein, crimes against women - or at least ones his son Uday, Iraq's vicious Caligula, did not commit - were relatively rare (though solid statistics for such crimes don't exist). Last October, the regime opened the doors to the prisons. Kidnappers, rapists and murderers were allowed to blend back into society, but they were kept in check by the police state. When the Americans arrived and the police force disappeared, however, these old predators re-emerged alongside new ones.

I don't even think I can take this article seriously. The only piece of real, measurable evidence that seems to support this woman's assertion is in the first sentence of the above quote, but even she admits that the information isn't reliable! The rest of the article is a collection of emotional personal stories, and although they are horrible and tragic, they prove little about the general condition in Iraq, and serve only to make the Americans look like big evil conquerors. The people in Iraq now have political freedom and no longer have to fear being captured arbitrarily by Saddam and gassed or put in a meat shredder. And yet the author seems to think that Saddam was better than the American government because party supporters received Saddam's protection!

:disgust::|

And you know people was not better under Saddam because?

Seems funny to me that you have no problem questioning someone who have nothing to gain by writing about those stories, (at least not you or I know of) but no problem whatsoever believing the Administration telling you how bad Saddam was and how much Iraqi love us because we gave them freedom. Don't you think may be, just maybe the Administration has the need to "sex up" the result and the reason after wasting hundreds of billions of dollar and causing thousands of death?
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
100
91
Originally posted by: Stonewall
Under Saddam Hussein, crimes against women - or at least ones his son Uday, Iraq's vicious Caligula, did not commit - were relatively rare (though solid statistics for such crimes don't exist). Last October, the regime opened the doors to the prisons. Kidnappers, rapists and murderers were allowed to blend back into society, but they were kept in check by the police state. When the Americans arrived and the police force disappeared, however, these old predators re-emerged alongside new ones.
I don't even think I can take this article seriously. The only piece of real, measurable evidence that seems to support this woman's assertion is in the first sentence of the above quote, but even she admits that the information isn't reliable! The rest of the article is a collection of emotional personal stories, and although they are horrible and tragic, they prove little about the general condition in Iraq, and serve only to make the Americans look like big evil conquerors. The people in Iraq now have political freedom and no longer have to fear being captured arbitrarily by Saddam and gassed or put in a meat shredder. And yet the author seems to think that Saddam was better than the American government because party supporters received Saddam's protection! :disgust::|

Is this a joke? This story is nothing new, everyone has guns and there is little law and order and the women are the most vulnerable. Welcome to anarchy 101.
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
0
0
you can't do democracy if you don't do women

That's absurd! The USA was a democracy, before women could vote, or take part. They didn't have to worry about being abducted, and raped.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
1
71
you think thats bad have your heard about whats happening in afghanistan. Its worse than it was before we went. And the opium levels are now up 1000% from zero production
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Bigdude
you can't do democracy if you don't do women

That's absurd! The USA was a democracy, before women could vote, or take part. They didn't have to worry about being abducted, and raped.

They've always had to worry about that.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Bigdude
you can't do democracy if you don't do women

That's absurd! The USA was a democracy, before women could vote, or take part. They didn't have to worry about being abducted, and raped.

They've always had to worry about that.

Good point. BTW... Thanks for your absurd comments PhillyHamas!
 
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