Whoa! Ultimate truth found?!

[moonbogg]

The argument sort of goes like this, and no its not my argument. Some smart guy came up with it.
You can't deny that you are having a conscious experience. Even if you are a smart ass and claim to deny it, then you are having the experience of being a smart ass who denies their experience.
Since consciousness is always true and is the only thing that anyone knows with 100% certainty, then some people think it is ultimate truth and is fundamental to reality. In other words, the world doesn't create consciousness, but consciousness created the world. I don't personally buy into all that, but I have to admit that there is something odd about its 100% certainty and undeniability.
Even if you are hallucinating you entire life and your whole life is a lie, you are still having an experience of that and the experiencing part is always true. If you are in the matrix, your reality is fake but your experience of it is true and real.
Experience is always true and 100% undeniable. Maybe its something fundamental to the universe rather than some fluke evolutionary phenomenon?

 

[Greenman]

Or maybe it's just an interesting pile of words with no meaning what so ever.

 

[Paul98]

Consciousness has very little to do with the real world, for the most part it's not changing anything about it. Now your consciousness is all of how you see and experience the world.

Your consciousness doesn't create the earth, but it does create "your earth" aka how you experience the earth. But that doesn't mean that is how the earth actually is.

That is just playing with words to try and make it sound like something it's not.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The argument sort of goes like this, and no its not my argument. Some smart guy came up with it.

who says the guy is smart??

 

[moonbogg]

The guy's name is Peter Russell. I thought his ideas were interesting.

http://www.peterrussell.com/index2.php

The most interesting thing is that science hasn't even tried to really touch consciousness (according to him) until recently. The back of science is against the wall and is now forced to confront the bizarre anomaly of consciousness since it is the one thing that is so strange its difficult to even ask questions about it (according to some). It is pretty strange, isn't it? Some people write it off like its just no big deal, but I think its a pretty big deal.

 

[dank69]

What about the "last Thursday" meme. Who is to say that the experiences, even the ones we are having now, aren't just preprogrammed memories?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Even if you are hallucinating you entire life and your whole life is a lie, you are still having an experience of that and the experiencing part is always true.

No, that experience, by the definition you just used, is false. All this is really saying is that if you have an experience, then you have had an experience. That is just semantics, not some deep truth. If I have a balloon, then I have a balloon and that will always be 100% true! This does not mean that balloons are somehow the key to the mystery of life, the universe, and everything.

 

[Paul98]

No, that experience, by the definition you just used, is false. All this is really saying is that if you have an experience, then you have had an experience. That is just semantics, not some deep truth. If I have a balloon, then I have a balloon and that will always be 100% true! This does not mean that balloons are somehow the key to the mystery of life, the universe, and everything.

Agreed, that's also how I read it.

 

[Kadarin]

The back of science is against the wall and is now forced to confront the bizarre anomaly of consciousness

Ok, this is idiotic.

Science isn't some monolithic thing that is "forced" to do this or that.

 

[moonbogg]

Ok, this is idiotic.

Science isn't some monolithic thing that is "forced" to do this or that.

Um, yes it is.

 

[Kadarin]

Um, yes it is.

Um, no, it isn't. Science is a process involving observation, experimentation, and theorizing that people choose to do to learn more about the world around them. And it works, and works extremely well.

If we do not know something, say about "consciousness" for example, then people can choose to do science to try to learn something about it. There's no "force" involved; if you believe that there is, then your understanding of what science is must be fundamentally flawed.

 

[moonbogg]

OK look I'm acting like that because I felt attacked because I didn't sound very smart, and that's fine. Just forget about me and my ideas. I want to know what you guys think about Peter Russell's ideas about consciousness. Do you think they have merit?

Read this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-russell/brain-consciousness_b_873595.html

 

[Kadarin]

OK look I'm acting like that because I felt attacked because I didn't sound very smart, and that's fine. Just forget about me and my ideas. I want to know what you guys think about Peter Russell's ideas about consciousness. Do you think they have merit?

Read this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-russell/brain-consciousness_b_873595.html

That article essentially says nothing. He throws out a number of ideas that are "gaining traction" without any supporting facts, presumably to entice you to purchase his book at the bottom of the page.

In science, "we don't know yet" is a perfectly valid answer. Someone motivated to work on the question of consciousness will have to come up with some good ways to take observations, make some measurements, perform experiments, and come up with good theories as to what's actually happening in the process, and at that point we will be able to say that we have a better understanding.

Given the context of the article, I'd have to say that the title of your thread is incorrect. No "ultimate truth" has been found (if you want to claim it has been, then show some real evidence), and you're confusing science with the philosophical ramblings of someone who wants to sell you a book.

 

[disappoint]

1) In other words, the world doesn't create consciousness, but consciousness created the world.

2) I don't personally buy into all that, but I have to admit that there is something odd about its 100% certainty and undeniability.

How does consciousness create the world?

You don't personally buy into that, but in your opinion it's 100% certain and undeniable?
How is that not contradictory?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

People need to stop talking about "truth" as though it were some magical, mystical, oraclular and hidden treasure eluding discovery. "Truth" is merely what happens when a person puts a bunch of words together using agreeable definitions.

"Ultimate truth" or "Absolute truth" is basically snake oil. There's no magic to it. There's no secret knowledge. It's tautologies. Period.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How does consciousness create the world?

What is "the world"?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Ultimately, one way or another the Ultimate truth will be found.....
I am surprised that at this juncture nobody has chimed and said -- The ultimate truth is that there is no God.....very interesting!!

 

[Retro Rob]

"Ultimate truth" or "Absolute truth" is basically snake oil.

This is a contradictory statement. If there is no absolute truth, then it cannot be snake oil, as that is a statement of absolute truth. That statement is not a "fact", however.

You're basically the stating the equivalent of one who believes the moon is made of cheese. Truth is whatever you want it to be, at the time. As long as you're willing to believe it, there certainly is no absolute truth.

Additionally, making the statement that there is no absolute truth implies a universal negative. I will eagerly await the day you can empirically demonstrate that there is and has never been absolute truth.

 

[MongGrel]

This is the reason there aren't Philosophy Major Billionares.

 

[HeXen]

If it's something that can't be answered in my lifetime, then I'd rather not waste my life thinking about things like this. I reserve thinking to be for my benefit, not for an empty outcome. That's what LSD is for.

 

[Retro Rob]

Ultimately, one way or another the Ultimate truth will be found.....
I am surprised that at this juncture nobody has chimed and said -- The ultimate truth is that there is no God.....very interesting!!

There are already truths in our world anyway. It's absolutely true that I will die if you chop my head off -- that's both absolutely true and factual at the same time.

So I have no qualms in believing that there are not only absolute truths, but we could fine the Absolute Truth(s).

 

[Retro Rob]

People need to stop talking about "truth" as though it were some magical, mystical, oraclular and hidden treasure eluding discovery. "Truth" is merely what happens when a person puts a bunch of words together using agreeable definitions.

I don't think that's what's really being said...I think there are simply unknowns that will be discovered at some point in time.

For instance, who truly knows what happens after we die. I believe that nothing happens, we're just dead....but that's an assumption.

However, no one has ever come back to life to tell us, so it is yet to be known.

I think that by virtue of there being plenty of unknowns in both science and philosophy, the search for these are completely natural and should be encouraged.

 

[HeXen]

I don't think that's what's really being said...I think there are simply unknowns that will be discovered at some point in time.

For instance, who truly knows what happens after we die. I believe that nothing happens, we're just dead....but that's an assumption.

However, no one has ever come back to life to tell us, so it is yet to be known.

I think that by virtue of there being plenty of unknowns in both science and philosophy, the search for these are completely natural and should be encouraged.

Well there are stories of people that were clinically dead for quite a while and told stories but of course we'll never know if their experience was real or not.

I read some reports stating some were dead for nearly an hour but who knows. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22154552

 

[Scotteq]

This Just In!!

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no death. Life is but a Dream, and We are just an Imagination of ourselves...

...here's Tom with the weather.


...and thanks to Bill Hicks for that.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

This is a contradictory statement. If there is no absolute truth, then it cannot be snake oil, as that is a statement of absolute truth. That statement is not a "fact", however.

Oh for fuck's sake, Rob. Read what I wrote again and quote the part that says there is no absolute truth. You're arguing against a figment of your imagination again.

Christ almighty nothing ever changes around here.