Whoa! Ultimate truth found?!

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Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
The color we experience is purely subjective as made clear from those who are color blind and think something like peanut butter is green. Or those who have other senses tied together and green may have a smell or taste. If you want to know how the brain processes colors you can always look it up on the internet. Otherwise you are just going to get a subjective answer.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
At this point we have to take a step to the right and ask, do you believe in the spiritual? If the answer is yes then you can say that there is some sort of 'soul' that does the experiencing of those biochemical reactions. If, like me, you answer no there is no spiritual, then your quest ends at those biochemical processes.

I do not believe in the spiritual. I also don't agree that the quest necessarily must end at biochemical processes. I feel that this may be unjustified and may hinder the discovery of a real answer. I see no reason why there can't be a third option, unless you feel that we have discovered all there is to know about the fundamental nature of the universe.
We need to approach it scientifically, but not be closed off to a different approach. That is to say, objective analysis of the phenomenon of consciousness may be inadequate to fully account for its existence. It might require a truly unexpected discovery to understand this.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
I do not believe in the spiritual. I also don't agree that the quest necessarily must end at biochemical processes. I feel that this may be unjustified and may hinder the discovery of a real answer. I see no reason why there can't be a third option, unless you feel that we have discovered all there is to know about the fundamental nature of the universe.
We need to approach it scientifically, but not be closed off to a different approach. That is to say, objective analysis of the phenomenon of consciousness may be inadequate to fully account for its existence. It might require a truly unexpected discovery to understand this.

Why do you think it requires some special physics? It sounds to me you are trying to complicate things and have nothing to back it up. Where you should be looking at how the brain interprets things like seeing color, pain,... How all those systems interact and why people think certain things.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
Why do you think it requires some special physics? It sounds to me you are trying to complicate things and have nothing to back it up. Where you should be looking at how the brain interprets things like seeing color, pain,... How all those systems interact and why people think certain things.

I say I am completely clueless. I did not say I believe we need new physics. I said I would prefer to have an open mind.
You claim that you know where the answer is. What is your justification for claiming that consciousness is caused by those bolded statements?
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
If you are completely clueless then start reading and researching, there is a lot of information out there on how the brain works and interprets the world around you.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
If you are completely clueless then start reading and researching, there is a lot of information out there on how the brain works and interprets the world around you.

No, there is nothing of the sort. No college, no PHD professor, no university, no neuroscientist, I mean no one has the answer to the question, "how does matter become aware". Everyone is completely clueless and they are all guessing at it right now. Granted they have a much better shot at figuring it out than I ever will, but they are just as clueless as I am right now regarding that one question. That one question is all I am interested in.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
No, there is nothing of the sort. No college, no PHD professor, no university, no neuroscientist, I mean no one has the answer to the question, "how does matter become aware". Everyone is completely clueless and they are all guessing at it right now. Granted they have a much better shot at figuring it out than I ever will, but they are just as clueless as I am right now regarding that one question. That one question is all I am interested in.

How do you know this?
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
How do you know this?

All I can say is I have not been able to discover anyone who knows or has published anything like an answer. There are many hypothesis, and most of them are different. The only thing that seems certain is that it involves the brain of course.
I cannot be certain that there isn't some brilliant scientist somewhere hiding in a basement who has it all figured out, if that's what you are asking. I don't have friends who are leading neuroscientists, so I can't call them up and ask them. I have to rely on my best efforts to search for an answer and from what I gather the best scientists do not agree and they do not claim to know it.
You seem to think its been solved already? Source?
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
No, there is nothing of the sort. No college, no PHD professor, no university, no neuroscientist, I mean no one has the answer to the question, "how does matter become aware". Everyone is completely clueless and they are all guessing at it right now. Granted they have a much better shot at figuring it out than I ever will, but they are just as clueless as I am right now regarding that one question. That one question is all I am interested in.

I didn't read the whole discussion, so I don't know the context for this, question, but maybe I could give you a few ideas.

First, you have single-celled organisms, the most basic form of life. Those eventually evolved into animals and humans by means of natural selection. So what are animals/species? It are self-sustaining chemical reactions. To sustain the reaction, it turned out it was possible/an advantage that those could be mobile, instead of just growing out of the ground. But if you can move, you must be well adapted for that so you won't get injured or die. You must be able to detect air waves (aka sound), detect things that touch your skin, detect temperature, etc. But most importantly, you must be able to see your environment, because that's the most important sense (for most animals). There are a lot of things necessary to be able to survive good as a mobile organism, but if nature has time it can apparently do that.

Anyway, it's nice if an animal has a eyes, ears, a nose, etc., but the animal most determine what it has to do, where it needs to go. It needs a processor. The brain.

The human brain doesn't have power hungry, very accurate transistors, but neurons, and if you have enough of those, the animal will have a consciousness. The brain will be able to process the input from its senses quite good, and it will be able to store information, aka memories. I think memories are actually very important. For example, I suspect that I'm aware in every dream, but I simply forget most and they get lost.

Intelligence probably plays also decent role in it. It you have language, are able to communicate and acquire knowledge, this may help to become more self-aware.

TL;DR: The way I see it, it that the brain is some sort of SoC, or a LoC: life on a chip. By means of natural selection, mobile animals evolved and humans gained enough neurons that we're more intelligent. We are much better at processing and storing information. So I think consciousness is simply mandatory. The most interesting question to me is how such a self-sustaining chemical reaction could start the resulted in all life you see.

Edit: This is just how I view it. I don't know if this is truly correct or too simplified, I could be wrong.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
The argument sort of goes like this, and no its not my argument. Some smart guy came up with it.
You can't deny that you are having a conscious experience. Even if you are a smart ass and claim to deny it, then you are having the experience of being a smart ass who denies their experience.
Since consciousness is always true and is the only thing that anyone knows with 100% certainty, then some people think it is ultimate truth and is fundamental to reality. In other words, the world doesn't create consciousness, but consciousness created the world. I don't personally buy into all that, but I have to admit that there is something odd about its 100% certainty and undeniability.
Even if you are hallucinating you entire life and your whole life is a lie, you are still having an experience of that and the experiencing part is always true. If you are in the matrix, your reality is fake but your experience of it is true and real.
Experience is always true and 100% undeniable. Maybe its something fundamental to the universe rather than some fluke evolutionary phenomenon?

Bishop Berkeley much ?

It's a long way from being a new concept.
 
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