Who's buying Skylake-X? (You may now change your vote)

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Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,509
1,571
136
They are saying it because they have just about hit the wall on clockspeed and IPC increases, so they need something else to get the public excited and willingly to spend money on.

People think cherrypicking games that benefit from moar cores is an irrefutable sign that some kind of multi-core paradise will soon be upon us, when the reality is that many styles of games just aren't great candidates for increased threading.

The Core Wars is going to be a very long and slow process.

Well by that notion, its been a long and slow process starting in 2006. Yeah people pimped quad core too early. My q8400 at 2.6ghz wasn't really noticably faster than my e6600 at 2.4ghz but by 2011-12 it was obvious you wanted a quad core for gaming. Look how long those intel chips have lasted us. I would have skipped the q8400 if I hadn't gotten the upgrade bug and bought a new cpu when the 6600's mobo died in early 2010 (I should have just waited till 2011).

I don't see the same thing happening this time around though. Much more pressure to utilize the moar cores.
 

ZGR

Platinum Member
Oct 26, 2012
2,058
671
136
I'm going to have to upgrade sooner than I hoped. 4 cores just isn't enough for gaming and recording at 4k60. I am also streaming at 720p60 on the same system.

My cpu is pegged at 100% during gaming but it isn't dropping frames or going below 60fps. I would love to stream 1080p60 on a single system.

I'm really impressed at how well this i7 has aged but it is definitely near the end of its life. It probably has 1 GPU upgrade left before I retire it as the streaming rig.

I really like recording 4k60 and it is amazing what the CPU performance hit is. It runs out of steam completely if I stream at 1080p60 and record at 4k60.

I really need more info on Skylake-X's L2 cache improvements before biting the bullet. If it has sizeable improvements in games I will be all over it. I will give up my hope of an L4 cache in a future CPU.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
What you do want for handbrake and encoding is a ryzen cpu unless its h265. If its h264 you get 80-90% of the way for half cost with eg a 1700x and a b350mb non oc. Ryzen is the state of the art atm for this kind of workload. And at the same priceclass as a 7820 a 12/16c threadripper will probably be faster. I would wait and see for your workload. Things have changed since your 3570k.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11170...review-a-deep-dive-on-1800x-1700x-and-1700/20
Not really state of the art, just cheaper.
 
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Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
Cores this cores that... oops benchmarks.



You'll be more than fine with your 6700K in the next years, just don't expect your CPU to stay on top of the charts, that's all.

The only thing that should be crystal clear for people on current mainstream i7 CPUs is that starting from this summer they'll own a i5 class CPU. The 6700K should expect the longevity of i5 2500K, not that of i7 2600K.
Oops, more benchmarks Hardware.fr ave gaming results . 7700K is still the fastest. And dont forget the HEDT chips in the data you sited have a much larger cache as well.
 
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,593
13,910
136
And dont forget the HEDT chips in the data you sited have a much larger cache as well.
The 7700K is less than 1% faster than those mega cache multi-core fatties that run 800-900Mhz slower (don't forget that either), yet you tell me there's no clear tendency for games to make use of more than 4 cores even as we speak. SKL-X reviews can't come soon enough.

PS: in the same review you posted 4790K is slower than Haswell HEDT. Damn cache, damn quad channel, damn conspiracy.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
Well by that notion, its been a long and slow process starting in 2006. Yeah people pimped quad core too early. My q8400 at 2.6ghz wasn't really noticably faster than my e6600 at 2.4ghz but by 2011-12 it was obvious you wanted a quad core for gaming. Look how long those intel chips have lasted us. I would have skipped the q8400 if I hadn't gotten the upgrade bug and bought a new cpu when the 6600's mobo died in early 2010 (I should have just waited till 2011).

I don't see the same thing happening this time around though. Much more pressure to utilize the moar cores.
Back in 2005, literally all desktop software was optimised for single core, maybe some could benefit a bit from a second thread or core, so once it became obvious that more cores were going to be the new reality, software developers would have started grabbing that low hanging fruit.

I would suggest that just about all that low hanging fruit is now gone, and further gains from more threads and more cores will be very sparse in the years ahead.

What people will need to be vigilant about when reviews come out is whether or not the software being tested is what people will want to be using, or if the reviewers are picking benchmarking apps to show the gains that can come from those apps that can be easily threaded for gain.

Just because something would be good if it were true, doesn't mean it is going to happen, just because we want it to.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
Or it's the exact opposite. Games are being developed on eight core machines that share the same architecture as PC for the first time. The "cherry picking" as you call it all newer games that have all come out in the last 6-12 months. vs the ones that show the 4 core dominance are mostly from 2015 and a little into early 2016. Which all fits within the development window for the consoles. Most 2014 and 15 games started their life only ever seeing DX11, started life as Xbox360 and PS3 games that shifted focus. While games coming out now are games that lived their whole lives as Xbox One and PS4 games. Heck we already have one game that actually dumbs down the game if it detects 4 cores or less. Intel Coffee Lake isn't coming out with 6 cores because of Ryzen. It's going to be mostly because of a clock cap. But the end point was they couldn't keep the segmentation up much longer. They needed to bring more cores down.

Not saying it will be a "paradise". 4 Cores are going to be viable several years from now. But bit by bit performance is going to erode and that is already happening. Right now its mostly games that run at 80-99% with the 4 cores. Next year it will be more games that are CPU bottlenecked at levels CF, X79-X299, and Ryzen/TR are not. Then a year from that the engines themselves will require much more work from the CPU and you will notice widely different performance between games and the CPU choices. In 4 years expect that 6+ core CPU's are on the recommended list of most games.

Now most of this is the AAA and AA games.

This doesn't mean that people should be tripping over themselves to get a X299 or TR. But this isn't 2011, back then the market was starting to move to more multi-core, but then SB came out and practically doubled performance. OS and software overhead started to take a big dive in resource requirements. Development shifted to consoles even more and then there was the unmoving market segmentation where users were not getting more faster cores from Intel. Now that Intel and AMD have (well Intel will have) Consumer grade CPU's with more cores and even Intel is making their sub 10c stuff more accessible. This is probably going to look more like a leaky damn ready to burst.

With the state of the semi-conductor industry, it would be great if we were at the dawn of a wonderful multi-threaded future, as clearly it is going to be a lot easier for Intel, AMD, and anyone else who might pop up, to offer us moar cores, than moar clockspeed and moar IPC, so I hope you are right and I have badly misjudged the state of play.

But when I see Linus Torvalds say that making software that doesn't naturally lend itself to being multi-threaded is really, really hard, I believe that.

Hopefully when these multi-core monster CPU's come out in the next few months and years, we can see some apples to apples comparisons between 4 cores, 6 cores, 8 cores, 10 cores etc and examine what the trade offs are in cost, power consumption, heat generation, clockspeed, cache sizes and performance in desktop applications.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,157
136
Don't know yet. I stopped following most news after Ryzen came out due to personal stuff in my life. I'm just getting back into the swing of it.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
Back in 2005, literally all desktop software was optimised for single core, maybe some could benefit a bit from a second thread or core, so once it became obvious that more cores were going to be the new reality, software developers would have started grabbing that low hanging fruit.

I would suggest that just about all that low hanging fruit is now gone, and further gains from more threads and more cores will be very sparse in the years ahead.

Writing multi-threaded code typically isn't that hard. Developing data structures that work well with many threads accessing them is often the tougher problem. Often there are applications running using dozens (or hundreds) of threads - but most of those threads aren't doing any heavy lifting. Multiple large shared data structures that need to be in sync cause the most headaches, IMHO.
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
1,159
136
I don't think the 'chicken and egg' debate is even worth considering here; the capability (hardware) must be available before coders (software) can take advantage of it. The debate about quad cores vs everything else is getting a bit unreasonable. The multicore progression is not going to stop at four cores. The relative ease of parallelism and the sheer performance opportunities as opposed to the uphill task of going the ipc and frequency way makes the many core option inevitable. Early adoption of hexacores and octacores only accelerates the transition. That is what all enthusiast should want and embrace.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
The 7700K is less than 1% faster than those mega cache multi-core fatties that run 800-900Mhz slower (don't forget that either), yet you tell me there's no clear tendency for games to make use of more than 4 cores even as we speak. SKL-X reviews can't come soon enough.

PS: in the same review you posted 4790K is slower than Haswell HEDT. Damn cache, damn quad channel, damn conspiracy.
Where did I say
The 7700K is less than 1% faster than those mega cache multi-core fatties that run 800-900Mhz slower (don't forget that either), yet you tell me there's no clear tendency for games to make use of more than 4 cores even as we speak. SKL-X reviews can't come soon enough.

PS: in the same review you posted 4790K is slower than Haswell HEDT. Damn cache, damn quad channel, damn conspiracy.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I made no comment at all about "tendencies". All I did was show another set of data. At least the data I showed wasnt at 720p.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,593
13,910
136
All I did was show another set of data. At least the data I showed wasnt at 720p.
And in the data set you showed the Haswell 4790K is slower than any other Haswell HEDT. Do you have an opinion on that so I can avoid putting more words in your mouth?
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,875
1,530
136
Or it's the exact opposite. Games are being developed on eight core machines that share the same architecture as PC for the first time. The "cherry picking" as you call it all newer games that have all come out in the last 6-12 months. vs the ones that show the 4 core dominance are mostly from 2015 and a little into early 2016. Which all fits within the development window for the consoles. Most 2014 and 15 games started their life only ever seeing DX11, started life as Xbox360 and PS3 games that shifted focus. While games coming out now are games that lived their whole lives as Xbox One and PS4 games. Heck we already have one game that actually dumbs down the game if it detects 4 cores or less. Intel Coffee Lake isn't coming out with 6 cores because of Ryzen. It's going to be mostly because of a clock cap. But the end point was they couldn't keep the segmentation up much longer. They needed to bring more cores down.

Not saying it will be a "paradise". 4 Cores are going to be viable several years from now. But bit by bit performance is going to erode and that is already happening. Right now its mostly games that run at 80-99% with the 4 cores. Next year it will be more games that are CPU bottlenecked at levels CF, X79-X299, and Ryzen/TR are not. Then a year from that the engines themselves will require much more work from the CPU and you will notice widely different performance between games and the CPU choices. In 4 years expect that 6+ core CPU's are on the recommended list of most games.

Now most of this is the AAA and AA games.

This doesn't mean that people should be tripping over themselves to get a X299 or TR. But this isn't 2011, back then the market was starting to move to more multi-core, but then SB came out and practically doubled performance. OS and software overhead started to take a big dive in resource requirements. Development shifted to consoles even more and then there was the unmoving market segmentation where users were not getting more faster cores from Intel. Now that Intel and AMD have (well Intel will have) Consumer grade CPU's with more cores and even Intel is making their sub 10c stuff more accessible. This is probably going to look more like a leaky damn ready to burst.

Thats not really true, first off, games cant use all 8 cores on consoles, the max they can use is 7, what is an odd number to use.

Second, those are low power/low performance cores, a quad core cpu is more than able to handle more work than those small 7 cores. Hell even a dual core with HT like the G4560 is able to put up a fight.
The limit of consoles cores means they cant load the threads too much, thats what gives quad cores a fighting chance.

BUT, there is a bottleneck, if a quad core has only 4 threads, the game will probably feed more data to the cpu that this can pick up, no matter at what speed it can work on it.
This is the problem that 4C/4T cpus are seeing right now, they have a input bottleneck. This was the point were 4C/8T started to matter in games. (on this gen).

High speed 4C/8T cpus should be fine for this generation +2 years after, unless we are talking about a PC only game that is not limited by console hardware.

This does not means 6C/12T or 8C/16T cpu cant be faster, im talking about the bare minimum you need to run the game like in a console. And for some of us that is not enoght.

*DirectX is a big issue as well, with DX12 being too hard to implement properly on variable hardware and DX11 having very limited MT and too old, that is a problem for all games in general.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,095
30,037
146
3 months ago, 4 cores was still perfectly adequate for gaming and multitasking, Then, suddenly, for some reason, it isn't! madness.
 
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Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
136
Thats not really true, first off, games cant use all 8 cores on consoles, the max they can use is 7, what is an odd number to use.

Second, those are low power/low performance cores, a quad core cpu is more than able to handle more work than those small 7 cores. Hell even a dual core with HT like the G4560 is able to put up a fight.
The limit of consoles cores means they cant load the threads too much, thats what gives quad cores a fighting chance.

Missing the point. I am not saying that in terms of actual computing power. Actually them being extremely slow helps out multi-tasking. As you mention earlier the problem is having to code for MT. Now by using 7-8 really crappy cores to get the performance they want they have to code for multi-cores. End result is more games becoming more threaded when its time to port it over to the PC. Which usually is an unoptimized mess. But besides the point once users pop everything up to 11, core usage on PC will be higher.

BUT, there is a bottleneck, if a quad core has only 4 threads, the game will probably feed more data to the cpu that this can pick up, no matter at what speed it can work on it.
This is the problem that 4C/4T cpus are seeing right now, they have a input bottleneck. This was the point were 4C/8T started to matter in games. (on this gen).

High speed 4C/8T cpus should be fine for this generation +2 years after, unless we are talking about a PC only game that is not limited by console hardware.

Probably for a while good enough for 4c8t. But we are already showing that things are topping out at almost exactly the limits of 4c8t (7700 usage above 90% but performance doesn't increase with more cores). This is where people are taking extremes annoys me. I am not saying a 7700 now would be unplayable. I even drew up a little timeline. But what I am saying is the Clock vs. Cores conversation ends in 2017. The 7700 is the last hurrah and its strength as the "ultimate" gaming CPU is actually weaker than the 6700 before it. That why I personally think it's a bad buy this year because while it is faster in basically all 2016 and earlier games, unless you are swapping CPU's every year (which for Intel means every other year a new board as well) you are putting yourself at a disadvantage going forward. This isn't like a like in 2011 when people thought the core craze would start. It's already happening anyone who suggests otherwise is basically putting their head in the sand.

This does not means 6C/12T or 8C/16T cpu cant be faster, im talking about the bare minimum you need to run the game like in a console. And for some of us that is not enoght.

*DirectX is a big issue as well, with DX12 being too hard to implement properly on variable hardware and DX11 having very limited MT and too old, that is a problem for all games in general.

That was my point from the beginning, whether it's Skylake-X or Coffee Lake or Ryzen or Thread ripper. There are many options either here or on the horizon that offer more future gaming performance than the 7700. Now again for people swapping out parts every 6 months a year it's one thing but it is extremely shortsighted, to use a 6-7 year old example of some people's hopes and dreams being wrong, to ignore the shift that has already started as a "cherry pick". Heck we already have two games that see core usage go up to 32 threads.

The point with DX11 and DX12 is exactly the point. Sure DX12 is harder to code for. But DX11 and it's lacking MT support is the old. Eventually guys will figure it out. But this is the simple stuff. DX11 could be used in a more MT setting if the developers saw the need. BF1 MP shows great core usage up beyond the eight threads of the 7700 when using DX11 because the core of the game was written for better MT so they could have all the physics and craziness of a 64 player map. DX12 helps to thread the Frame calls and other GPU hand offs more Dynamically. Which is another big point, even if the developers don't code the engine itself for better MT support, future DX12 and Vulkan games will still see increased performance on higher core count games if the video card has room for it.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
136
3 months ago, 4 cores was still perfectly adequate for gaming and multitasking, Then, suddenly, for some reason, it isn't! madness.
Part of that was an acceptance of our lot in life. A decent 6 core CPU was $600 plus a $250 motherboard and 4 Sticks of DDR4 away. Anything higher drastically rose up in price. Games only this year started to push on the boundary of what a 7700 could do. 4 Months ago a 7700k was the only game in town. Now you have Ryzen, Skylake-X 6 and 8 cores are better priced. Coffee Lake is out supposedly in August or September. With more games coming out meaning more games capped on 4c and all these 6c+ options. A 4c even the fastest 4c ever isn't looking as good.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
I know. and that was true 3 months ago. My point, you see.

I haven't thought that four cores where enough for a while, that why I have six. That said, I think a stock i7 7700k matches my overclocked i7 970 in MT now and has clearly superior ST.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
I haven't thought that four cores where enough for a while, that why I have six. That said, I think a stock i7 7700k matches my overclocked i7 970 in MT now and has clearly superior ST.

That depends on what you are doing I think. If you are playing a game that needs 4 cores to operate properly and you want to do some other task that requires 2 cores, then it doesn't matter how fast the quad is. It will be less optimal than having a slower 6 core chip. Just look at the streaming demos comparing a 7700K to a MUCH slower per core 8/16 chip. One is smooth while the other just isn't.
 

CRaul87

Junior Member
Nov 23, 2012
18
1
71
As someone who was about to pull the trigger on the Ryzen 1800X or 1700, the news of a 8-core Skylake-X with a minimum 4.3Ghz on all cores has got me waiting the next couple weeks for official announcement. I would assume you could OC that to around 4.5Ghz with appropriate cooling, and that would probably be enough for me to go Intel over AMD, even though I have a soft spot for AMD and appreciate how they have stirred up the industry. The only potential deal breaker would be a price similarly outrageous to the 6900K on the 8-core Skylake-X SKU. However, I am optimistic that Intel will lower the price significantly since they have reduced the Skylake-X 8-core to 28 PCI lanes and also they have to compete with Ryzen on price unless they blow them out of the water on performance, which is unlikely (but I suspect it will be measurably better). Here in Canada a 6900K is $1500 and a Ryzen 1700 (easily overclockable to 3.8-4.0) is $439. If the Skylake X 8-core is under $1000 CAD I will buy it, if not I'm still going Ryzen because the price is just insane. I have a feeling it will be $999 CAD haha.
Skylake X is a real obvious result to what AMD is doing in the market. We vote with our wallets and I know this is going to sound like me telling you what to do with your own money but if you choose Intel over amd in this particular case it would be a real slap in their face given what they have achieved with their own products and what they have driven Intel to do with theirs.
I guess the phrase "this is why we can't have nice things" would definitely apply here as on a personal level you would be sabotaging all the hard work that got us here in the first place.

Sent from my Redmi 3S using Tapatalk
 

TheF34RChannel

Senior member
May 18, 2017
786
309
136
Skylake X is a real obvious result to what AMD is doing in the market. We vote with our wallets and I know this is going to sound like me telling you what to do with your own money but if you choose Intel over amd in this particular case it would be a real slap in their face given what they have achieved with their own products and what they have driven Intel to do with theirs.
I guess the phrase "this is why we can't have nice things" would definitely apply here as on a personal level you would be sabotaging all the hard work that got us here in the first place.

Sent from my Redmi 3S using Tapatalk

From this I deduce I should buy AMD to please them and applaud what they have achieved. Meanwhile I deprive myself of the performance advantage I sought in the first place. This makes zero sense.

"We" don't vote with out wallets; some do, others don't. I think there's a nice AMD thread on this forum that's better suited for what you are trying to achieve. This is an Intel SKL-X thread; we all know about what AMD has to offer and if we wanted AMD we would be in the aforementioned AMD thread. Instead we have peeps here interested Intel
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
From what I've seen so far, it reinforces my opinion to hold off on an upgrade until the fall and see what's best. I believe that once TR is released, there will be a price war. At any rate, I am very concerned with the temps I've seen and hope the reviews next week put my mind at ease.
 
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