Who's Christian here?

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: psteng19

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Threads like this make me want to abolish ATOT for good. :roll:

Jules, I always thought you were a cool guy but this is your third crap in this thread.
If you don't like the thread, why do you keep coming back?
Just stay out. No one's forcing you to participate.

I will crap any thread I please. I just get sick of seeing this one on the front page that's all.

If you don't like my comments please feel free to ignore them.

You know..by posting...you put it back on the front page

 

[Krazefinn]

Open and earnest discourse is hallmark of advancement of all endeavors human, without which we'd still all be knuckle-scraping idjuts incapable of any higher learning, cultural/socieatl advancements, science, medicine, list is endless. impeding said is purely fascist, close-minded.

There is no worse condition than inability to keep open mind, or to allow others to do so. I may disagre with what you say, but shall fight to the death your right to say it. America was the first society that ever gave equal rights to all humans, and granted free moral agency. it is the woman in the wilderness that the beast made war with...huh?> America in the bible?

 

[DVK916]

For you christians, what is your opinion of the website Skeptics Anontaited Bible, I have always assumed it was a correct interpretation but christians I have talked to says almost everyline is twisted and meaning is distorted.

 

[spc hink]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: psteng19

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Threads like this make me want to abolish ATOT for good. :roll:

Jules, I always thought you were a cool guy but this is your third crap in this thread.
If you don't like the thread, why do you keep coming back?
Just stay out. No one's forcing you to participate.

I will crap any thread I please. I just get sick of seeing this one on the front page that's all.

If you don't like my comments please feel free to ignore them.

You know..by posting...you put it back on the front page

HAHAHAHAHA...nice

 

[Lovepig]

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself bGod.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


We are the offspring of God. We can grow to become gods.


on the subject of being one (man there are so many problems with the Trinity!);

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

and

John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

So... Jesus wants the apostles, and everyone who believes in their words (so you are included too if your Christian) to become one with Him and the Father IN THE EXACT SAME WAY that HE is one with the Father. If you think they occupy the same physical body, then that brain is gonna be pretty busy whenever ALL believers become one with Them! And if you do believe that then I guess you kind of believe you WILL become god too...

Additionally, when Stephen was stoned he saw Jesus Christ standing on the right hand side of God. What did he really see if they are the same person?

And when Christ was baptised, The Holy-Ghost descended as a dove, Christ was in the water, and God's voice came from the Heaven's. ... Unless you believe Jesus was an illusionist and a ventriloquist bent on deception, it is hard to believe in the Trinity.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: DVK916
For you christians, what is your opinion of the website Skeptics Anontaited Bible, I have always assumed it was a correct interpretation but christians I have talked to says almost everyline is twisted and meaning is distorted.

I've been directed there by people before and have looked at some of the 'quotes' and I gotta say, very interesting. I really don't see a lot of valid arguments or anything that even seems anything other than spiteful, so I'm not sure I see it as much of a useful tool.

 

[AznMaverick]

i am.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: DVK916
For you christians, what is your opinion of the website Skeptics Anontaited Bible, I have always assumed it was a correct interpretation but christians I have talked to says almost everyline is twisted and meaning is distorted.

I've been directed there by people before and have looked at some of the 'quotes' and I gotta say, very interesting. I really don't see a lot of valid arguments or anything that even seems anything other than spiteful, so I'm not sure I see it as much of a useful tool.

just read a little for the first time... they try to criticize the genealogies of Christ and refer to other verses in the Bible to support it... but they don't really correlate...

 

[Giantsfan24]

Originally posted by: Lovepig
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself bGod.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


We are the offspring of God. We can grow to become gods.


on the subject of being one (man there are so many problems with the Trinity!);

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

and

John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

So... Jesus wants the apostles, and everyone who believes in their words (so you are included too if your Christian) to become one with Him and the Father IN THE EXACT SAME WAY that HE is one with the Father. If you think they occupy the same physical body, then that brain is gonna be pretty busy whenever ALL believers become one with Them! And if you do believe that then I guess you kind of believe you WILL become god too...

Additionally, when Stephen was stoned he saw Jesus Christ standing on the right hand side of God. What did he really see if they are the same person?

And when Christ was baptised, The Holy-Ghost descended as a dove, Christ was in the water, and God's voice came from the Heaven's. ... Unless you believe Jesus was an illusionist and a ventriloquist bent on deception, it is hard to believe in the Trinity.

Jesus was quoting the Psalms which said JUDGES were gods because they held life in their hands, not because they became Jehovah. Jesus was saying since the Pslams called people gods(because of the reason i specified), why dont you(the pharisees or saducees) accept it when I claim to be the Son of God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1139556686-1873.html

Jesus lives in your heart when you become saved. This does not mean that Jesus becomes us. Believers will become something when we get our resurrected body, but it certainly isn't God. We will be clothed with righteousness. We will share characteristics of God, but not become a god. How many times does the Bible say there is only 1 God.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1139556929-9636.html

Trinity=1 God, 3 persons. A God that can create the universe is surely not limited to the realm of our understanding.

 

[EpsiIon]

I believe there is a lot of irrational hostility, half-truths, and falsehoods flying around.

To the atheists/agnostics:
I'm sorry that we Christians are so bad at practicing what we preach and even more sorry that this reflects so poorly on the god we worship. We have all done you a disservice in this respect.

To the Christians:
Always, ALWAYS remember that you can both love somebody AND believe that they're wrong. You do not have to validate immoral behavior or inaccurate beliefs to get along with people. Be clear about what is right and what is wrong, but (in general) do not beat anybody over the head with it. Hypocritical moralizing is probably one of the worst mistakes the Church can make (and I'm as guilty of it as anybody else). Remember that the focus should be on pointing people to Jesus.


<--- Fundamentalist protestant, currently attending a non-denominational church.

 

[Lovepig]

Remember that the focus should be on pointing people to Jesus.

Or at least to the RIGHT Jesus...

 

[engineereeyore]

I will share one last thing concerning this, just for anyone who is interested. Perhaps there are a few here who have studied Hebrew.

? ???????????, ?????? ????????, ??? ???????????, ????? ???????.

What I put there is the very first scripture in the Book of Genesis. I'm sure that most remember what this verse says, but if not, here is the normally accepted translation.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

There is one problem though with this translation. ?? is a symbol in Hebrew that denotes plurality or more than one. In its use in this scripture, it is referring to God. Literally translated in this verse, it say the Head of the Gods.

Why was this not put into the original translation? Because people didn't understand it and because it went against the Creed of the time. How could it possibly be true? Yet there it is, plain as day. There is no denying it, there is no contradicting it. It is there and has been in every record ever made.

God does not have to be some vague, unfathomable mist or apparition. He is our Father, and we are his children. There is no reason for him to give us scripture to help us understand him and to know his will, and then simply leave us confused in the process. He gains nothing by it. We have been commanded to learn of him, to learn about him. If all the scriptures can do is leave us with an empty understanding, then what good are they?

 

[DivideBYZero]

My name is Tim, not Christian.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: psteng19

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Threads like this make me want to abolish ATOT for good. :roll:

Jules, I always thought you were a cool guy but this is your third crap in this thread.
If you don't like the thread, why do you keep coming back?
Just stay out. No one's forcing you to participate.

I will crap any thread I please. I just get sick of seeing this one on the front page that's all.

If you don't like my comments please feel free to ignore them.

You know..by posting...you put it back on the front page

Damn, you're right...crap, I did it again. :|

 

[therealnickdanger]

Engineereeyore,
I commend you for flexing your Hebrew muscle. I've always wanted to be able to read the original manuscripts in their original language. With every generation it seems that we get further and further from the original texts and further alienate one another by forming countless sects and denominations based upon some of the silliest misunderstandings of the Scriptures.

I am a Christian and I don't claim any certain denomination. I probably lean toward a more Baptist stance, but I'm trying to understand Jesus as the Jew he was rather than this trim-bearded white guy that helps you with your back-swing. I don't know if this has been brought up yet since 20 pages of posting takes a while, but has anyone discussed Jews for Jesus ministries?

My brother-in-law is a Messianic Jew, he works for J4J. He's a Jew that recognizes Yeshua as the one true God. He knows Hebrew backward and forward, speaks at churches and temples, and does outreach to his non-believing Jewish neighbors... it's pretty amazing stuff that they do.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: therealnickdanger
Engineereeyore,
I commend you for flexing your Hebrew muscle. I've always wanted to be able to read the original manuscripts in their original language. With every generation it seems that we get further and further from the original texts and further alienate one another by forming countless sects and denominations based upon some of the silliest misunderstandings of the Scriptures.

I am a Christian and I don't claim any certain denomination. I probably lean toward a more Baptist stance, but I'm trying to understand Jesus as the Jew he was rather than this trim-bearded white guy that helps you with your back-swing. I don't know if this has been brought up yet since 20 pages of posting takes a while, but has anyone discussed Jews for Jesus ministries?

My brother-in-law is a Messianic Jew, he works for J4J. He's a Jew that recognizes Yeshua as the one true God. He knows Hebrew backward and forward, speaks at churches and temples, and does outreach to his non-believing Jewish neighbors... it's pretty amazing stuff that they do.

I don't think it has been mentioned, but I agree, it definitely should be. Whether we agree with the current stance of the Jews or not, they are the ones that kept the records that we have today in the Bible. I think we all owe them a great deal of appreciation for that. Plus, they still retain the covenant given to Abraham. Whether they are living up to it or not is their deal. But I think they should be held in high regard for all that they have done and for being the great people that they are. Doesn't mean they haven't made mistakes, but who hasn't?

EDIT: Forgot to say, I didn't mean to "flex my muscle" because I don't have much and because I don't want what I say to sound condescending of others. My beliefs are mine and may not be other peoples.

 

[Zaitsevs]

fsm ftw

 

[Zaitsevs]

Originally posted by: George P Burdell
If I had to pick a religion, I'd pick FSM.

fsm ftw

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
how do you define Christian? as with many/most ATOT threads on the subject, certain people will come in and post that certain religions are not Christian because they said so, even though all members of that religion consider themselves Christians.

i am a christian and my family on both sides have been members of our church for several generations. my wife is a member of the same church and we attend regularly. i am a big fat sinner though, but i decided in 1998 to try and do the right thing instead of using my sins as an excuse to do nothing/not try.

To me a Christian is someone who yearns the deepest for a Christ-centered lifestyle because he is convicted of his sin and need for repentance and grace of God and of course, acknowledges Christ as his Lord and Savior, and ALL the lifestyple implications that come with it.

It can be a homosexual, a prostitute, or a corrupt official... as long as they acknowledge truthfully, the need for change. But due to man's need to feel a sense of moral superiority over one another, most of us cannot acknowledge that we all are equally wretched in the eyes of God when it comes to the need for His gift of grace.

 

[MoFoEd]

Former christian, now atheist.

 

[JulesMaximus]

All,

I'd like to apologize to all of you for thread crapping this thread. I was wrong to post the things I did, they didn't add any value to this thread so from now on if I don't have anything positive to add to this thread I just won't post in it.

I now return you to your religious discussions.

-Jules

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
All,

I'd like to apologize to all of you for thread crapping this thread. From now on if I don't have anything positive to add to this thread I just won't post in it.

I now return you to your religious discussions.

-Jules

hehe, BEGONE ATHEIST AND BURN IN HELL!!!

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
All,

I'd like to apologize to all of you for thread crapping this thread. From now on if I don't have anything positive to add to this thread I just won't post in it.

I now return you to your religious discussions.

-Jules

hehe, BEGONE ATHEIST AND BURN IN HELL!!!

Hmm, didn't see that coming. :laugh:

 

[Giantsfan24]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
I will share one last thing concerning this, just for anyone who is interested. Perhaps there are a few here who have studied Hebrew.

? ???????????, ?????? ????????, ??? ???????????, ????? ???????.

What I put there is the very first scripture in the Book of Genesis. I'm sure that most remember what this verse says, but if not, here is the normally accepted translation.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

There is one problem though with this translation. ?? is a symbol in Hebrew that denotes plurality or more than one. In its use in this scripture, it is referring to God. Literally translated in this verse, it say the Head of the Gods.

Why was this not put into the original translation? Because people didn't understand it and because it went against the Creed of the time. How could it possibly be true? Yet there it is, plain as day. There is no denying it, there is no contradicting it. It is there and has been in every record ever made.

God does not have to be some vague, unfathomable mist or apparition. He is our Father, and we are his children. There is no reason for him to give us scripture to help us understand him and to know his will, and then simply leave us confused in the process. He gains nothing by it. We have been commanded to learn of him, to learn about him. If all the scriptures can do is leave us with an empty understanding, then what good are they?

We knows that it refers to plurality. Hence the trinity. 1 God-3 Persons

Elohim-Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are breshit bara Elohim, where bara ??? is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u ???? would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel).

In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.

From wikipedia.com

http://www.probe.org/content/view/771/65/

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/42

Isa:41:4; Rev 1:8; Rev 21:7-8......Rev 22:12-16 How many "first and last" can there be? Yet here we see both Jesus AND God represented as the first and the last.

Even in the OT only God is the first and last.

Rev 1:17,18 The living one who died. Jesus. He says in the very NEXT verse He is the first and the last.

ALpha-Omega__God ; First and Last__God;; Alpha Omega__Jesus ; First and Last___ Jesus

1 God-3 Persons

WoW Revelation, the book so many people are afraid to touch.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: Giantsfan24

We knows that it refers to plurality. Hence the trinity. 1 God-3 Persons

Elohim-Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are breshit bara Elohim, where bara ??? is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u ???? would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel).

In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.

From wikipedia.com

http://www.probe.org/content/view/771/65/

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/42

Isa:41:4; Rev 1:8; Rev 21:7-8......Rev 22:12-16 How many "first and last" can there be? Yet here we see both Jesus AND God represented as the first and the last.

Even in the OT only God is the first and last.

Rev 1:17,18 The living one who died. Jesus. He says in the very NEXT verse He is the first and the last.

ALpha-Omega__God ; First and Last__God;; Alpha Omega__Jesus ; First and Last___ Jesus

1 God-3 Persons

WoW Revelation, the book so many people are afraid to touch.

I understand what you are trying to say, even if I don't agree with your interpretation. What I think people misunderstand about our religion thought is exactly what Paul said. God's there are many, and Lord's there are many, but to us, there is but one God.

You are absolutely correct. God is the first and the last as far as we are concerned. We need to worry about no one else. But what people still don't want to look at is the fact that I've stated several times already. One does not necessarily mean one in being, but one in purpose. Our interpretation has violated no doctrine taught in the Bible. We just look at the interpretation of one differently.

At the same time, I would expect that your interpretation of the scriptures would follow your beliefs and mine would follow mine. We don't believe that same thing, therefore we interpret it differently. I've hear first hand the interpretations of the Hebrew I've presented by Hebrew scholars and I know even their interpretation is different from mine, as well as yours. Go figure.

Point is, I've accomplished what I wanted, which was to present the true meaning of the ideas taught in our church to those unfamiliar with them. I commend you on your study and look forward to the day when we will all know exactly what the truth is.

Until then, good luck in your studies.

P.S. Actually, I find the Book of Revelations to be one of the plainest books ever written.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to mention. You might want to ignore that first link you sent. I found several errors in their understanding of the Mormon doctrine in just the first 2 paragraphs. Not sure about the 2nd link though, haven't looked at it.