Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DaShen
HeroOfPellinor, that is a very negative view of the Church (intentionally capitalized). It isn't in our right to judge someone as being a true Christian or not. If the person professes, that is all you can judge on. Sorry, but you aren't judge, jury, or executioner; only G-d is.
**EDIT**
Also, if you ever travel outside of the States to help out the poor and indigent, I believe your viewpoint will change.
the bible teaches that christians are not to judge unbelievers, but read I Cor. 5
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
it is obvious that christians should be wary of those calling themselves christians, but are obviously not.
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demenstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
Originally posted by: DVK916
So because we are all sinners we deserve to be tortured in the lake of fire forever?
Originally posted by: homestarmy
You need a poll.
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
So because we are all sinners we deserve to be tortured in the lake of fire forever?
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
So because we are all sinners we deserve to be tortured in the lake of fire forever?
according to the bible comparing us to a perfect god, we are not worthy of his sight, and to continue being a perfect god he must judge us for what we have done. the short answer would be yes that is what we deserve. but according to the bible, god would rather not this happen so he gave us another option.
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DaShen
HeroOfPellinor, that is a very negative view of the Church (intentionally capitalized). It isn't in our right to judge someone as being a true Christian or not. If the person professes, that is all you can judge on. Sorry, but you aren't judge, jury, or executioner; only G-d is.
**EDIT**
Also, if you ever travel outside of the States to help out the poor and indigent, I believe your viewpoint will change.
the bible teaches that christians are not to judge unbelievers, but read I Cor. 5
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
it is obvious that christians should be wary of those calling themselves christians, but are obviously not.
Ummm, HeroOfPellinor said he was a believer. I am not judging a non-believer.
HeroOfPellinor, that is a very negative view of the Church (intentionally capitalized). It isn't in our right to judge someone as being a true Christian or not
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
So because we are all sinners we deserve to be tortured in the lake of fire forever?
We deserve to be seperated from G-d. And the lake of fire is figurative. O.T. (Old Testament) calls it Sheol. The lake of fire and Hades were Greek interpretations. All figurative.
Think of it this way. G-d gives us the freedom to choose to have a relationship with Him or not with Him. We choose not to have a relationship with Him, he grants that. We are seperated from His presence after our choice, and our life on Earth.
Originally posted by: DaShen
Think of it this way. G-d gives us the freedom to choose to have a relationship with Him or not with Him. We choose not to have a relationship with Him, he grants that. We are seperated from His presence after our choice, and our life on Earth.
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: DaShen
Think of it this way. G-d gives us the freedom to choose to have a relationship with Him or not with Him. We choose not to have a relationship with Him, he grants that. We are seperated from His presence after our choice, and our life on Earth.
I'm beginning to take this view as well. I don't understand why Christianity has become so obsessed with the unsaved being condemned to Hell. Jesus' message was clearly about loving one another, not that you need to sign up to skip eternal damnation. The only time "hell" is mentioned, is when Satan and his fallen angels lose.
Originally posted by: DVK916
According to the bible we be tortured in hell. It will like burned alive, but you never die. You feel the pain of the fire forever and ever.
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: DVK916
According to the bible we be tortured in hell. It will like burned alive, but you never die. You feel the pain of the fire forever and ever.
Name one verse. Preferably not one from Revelations which is full of metaphoric imagery.
Originally posted by: monk3y
Born half Hindu half Christian... Practice neither.
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demenstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
god doesnt care about tribal ppl who have never heard of christ or the bible. lots of just and mercy there eh?
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: DVK916
According to the bible we be tortured in hell. It will like burned alive, but you never die. You feel the pain of the fire forever and ever.
Name one verse. Preferably not one from Revelations which is full of metaphoric imagery.
Matthew
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demenstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
god doesnt care about tribal ppl who have never heard of christ or the bible. lots of just and mercy there eh?
Not if you believe that belief in the promise can be viewed the same as righteousness. (Hebrews 11). They were viewed as righteous because they knew they were sinners and by faith believed in a G-d that had a promise. Even the first Chinese dynasty sacrificed lambs to the "god of Heaven", a lot of written characters follow biblical stories. Maybe it is possible that tribal people could have done the same without knowing what the promise was, but understanding that they are not worthy, that they are sinners, and asking the G-d above to grant them favor.
Look at Philip and the Ethiopian enuch, by faith G-d sent Philip to witness to the enuch, who by the Law would never had the ability to enter the temple and find out about G-d, but because of his true search was granted it by G-d. It is widely believed this enuch was one of the founders of the early churches in Africa.
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: DVK916
According to the bible we be tortured in hell. It will like burned alive, but you never die. You feel the pain of the fire forever and ever.
Name one verse. Preferably not one from Revelations which is full of metaphoric imagery.
Matthew
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Metaphor of the anguish of eternal seperation from G-d. which is what someone who rejects a relationship with G-d is doing.
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demenstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
god doesnt care about tribal ppl who have never heard of christ or the bible. lots of just and mercy there eh?
Not if you believe that belief in the promise can be viewed the same as righteousness. (Hebrews 11). They were viewed as righteous because they knew they were sinners and by faith believed in a G-d that had a promise. Even the first Chinese dynasty sacrificed lambs to the "god of Heaven", a lot of written characters follow biblical stories. Maybe it is possible that tribal people could have done the same without knowing what the promise was, but understanding that they are not worthy, that they are sinners, and asking the G-d above to grant them favor.
Look at Philip and the Ethiopian enuch, by faith G-d sent Philip to witness to the enuch, who by the Law would never had the ability to enter the temple and find out about G-d, but because of his true search was granted it by G-d. It is widely believed this enuch was one of the founders of the early churches in Africa.
so if thats not part of there tribal traditions then theyre f*ked too bad!
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demenstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
god doesnt care about tribal ppl who have never heard of christ or the bible. lots of just and mercy there eh?
Not if you believe that belief in the promise can be viewed the same as righteousness. (Hebrews 11). They were viewed as righteous because they knew they were sinners and by faith believed in a G-d that had a promise. Even the first Chinese dynasty sacrificed lambs to the "god of Heaven", a lot of written characters follow biblical stories. Maybe it is possible that tribal people could have done the same without knowing what the promise was, but understanding that they are not worthy, that they are sinners, and asking the G-d above to grant them favor.
Look at Philip and the Ethiopian enuch, by faith G-d sent Philip to witness to the enuch, who by the Law would never had the ability to enter the temple and find out about G-d, but because of his true search was granted it by G-d. It is widely believed this enuch was one of the founders of the early churches in Africa.
so if thats not part of there tribal traditions then theyre f*ked too bad!
Does it have to be a tribal tradition to understand that you are not perfect and to ask a higher power for mercy? <rhetorical, of course>
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: homestarmy
You need a poll.
You need a third option for Atheist/Agnostic. There are a lot of people on this forum that don't believe in a god.
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: DVK916
Heaven and Hell are what make people christian. When you believe that you will be tortured for eternity if you don't comply it is a strong motivator.
this is also why you find many hypocrits, because christianity is not about getting a get out of hell free card....as you so naively perceive it.
No but according to christianity those who are not christian are garenteed a spot in hell.
The reason is that everyone, including Christians (sometimes especially Christians, that is what makes the actual gift so undeserving), deserve nothing but eternal seperation from G-d. To be in G-d's presence you must be blameless, without fault. None of us are. That is the premise. The Law and Sin is what seperates us from God. Since God is both Just and Merciful, he cannot just ignore the Law.
Is a judge just if he lets a proven criminal go free without giving the criminal what he deserves? Would a judge be just if let a rapists go 'scott free' because he pitied and loved the person who raped? No, of course not. Would it be just if another rapist offered to take the punishment instead. No, of course not. But if someone who did not commit a criminal act, like the Judge Himself, willingly took the rapists place, would the justice be done.
Therefore, G-d demenstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He gave us the ability to be present before Him blameless because another person who was blameless took our place.
god doesnt care about tribal ppl who have never heard of christ or the bible. lots of just and mercy there eh?
Not if you believe that belief in the promise can be viewed the same as righteousness. (Hebrews 11). They were viewed as righteous because they knew they were sinners and by faith believed in a G-d that had a promise. Even the first Chinese dynasty sacrificed lambs to the "god of Heaven", a lot of written characters follow biblical stories. Maybe it is possible that tribal people could have done the same without knowing what the promise was, but understanding that they are not worthy, that they are sinners, and asking the G-d above to grant them favor.
Look at Philip and the Ethiopian enuch, by faith G-d sent Philip to witness to the enuch, who by the Law would never had the ability to enter the temple and find out about G-d, but because of his true search was granted it by G-d. It is widely believed this enuch was one of the founders of the early churches in Africa.
so if thats not part of there tribal traditions then theyre f*ked too bad!
Does it have to be a tribal tradition to understand that you are not perfect and to ask a higher power for mercy? <rhetorical, of course>
im positive there are many tribes which lack this concept completely. Mercy is not a universal concept.