who's the best baseball player in the MLB right now?

[SP33Demon]

Leadoff Hitter...

Rickey still has a lower stolen base to caught stealing than Ichiro (80% to 81%). He struck out at a higher rate (7%). He has 1/2 the intentional walks (61) in 24 seasons as Ichiro (163) in 10 seasons. Why? Because Ichiro gets better at .337 with runners in scoring position (RISP), Rickey gets worse at .265.

He averaged 95 runs a season scored vs Ichiro's 105. He averaged 46 RBI's a season to Ichiro's 56. Why is Rickey better again? Because he was 20 points higher in career on base %?

I could understand if Rickey stole every 9 out of 10 bases, but he didn't. He wasn't feared at plate like Ichiro. His defense was a liabilty, his arm was average. He batted over 50 points lower with less power.

Let's make a list Against Rickey:
1) Much worse defense
2) Much worse arm
3) 50+ points lower in batting average
4) 70+ points lower in batting average with RISP (see: clutch)
5) 1/2+ intentional walks
6) lower stolen base %
7) higher strikeout rate when swinging at the ball
8) less runs per season scored
9) less RBI's hit per season
10) less power

For Rickey:
1) higher OBP% by 20+ points due to more walks
2) more total cumulative stats because he played his entire career in the U.S.

So you're picking Rickey because he walked more but was worse in every other category. Wow.

 

[geecee]

Actually, .269 career away batting average and an OPS below 800

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=tulowtr01&year=Career&t=b

I agree. While Tulo is a great player and arguably the best SS, best in baseball is a stretch, due to the Coors field bump. Look to Matt Holliday as an example. After leaving Colorado, his BA is a bit down from his best Coors years, and he has yet to get to mid-30s HRs again. Still a great player, but not quite what his Rockies stats would indicate. I wanted to use Pujols' stats at Coors to compare, but interestingly, Pujols' career stats at Coors are a bit lower than his average stats.

 

[Numenorean]

I agree. While Tulo is a great player and arguably the best SS, best in baseball is a stretch, due to the Coors field bump. Look to Matt Holliday as an example. After leaving Colorado, his BA is a bit down from his best Coors years, and he has yet to get to mid-30s HRs again. Still a great player, but not quite what his Rockies stats would indicate. I wanted to use Pujols' stats at Coors to compare, but interestingly, Pujols' career stats at Coors are a bit lower than his average stats.

For whatever reason, the Rockies own the Cardinals. At least the last few years. We killed them last season. One of the games we got something like 6 runs in the bottom of the 9th to beat them after they were up by 9 or something at one point.

For me, best in baseball is a combination of defense and offense. There are guys with better offensive numbers than Tulo - there's no arguing that. But the combination of offense and defense I think is the key to being "best". If you want to say "best offensive player in baseball" then no, Tulo is not that. But with offense + defense, he's up there IMO.

 

[SP33Demon]

Ricky henderson was a much better player in his peak seasons. There's no denying it. he was just much less consistent than ichiro and played several years to long to have good career averages. Saying ichiro is a better lead off hitter is crazy when you take a look at rickys best seasons. No other player has ever put up anything close to those numbers. Ichiro is great in his consistency but considering his team has never even made the playoffs I can't really consider him that great. If you put pujols on the mariners they would have been a force in that division, so how much does ichiro really help? He's a complimentary player not the leader of a team.

Read my above post, the only thing Rickey was better at than Ichiro was walks. Every other category (including stolen base &#37, Rickey is worse. While walking is a big part of a leadoff hitter, you cannot say that one player is better because of only that. There has to be something else. Ichiro is just a better all around player and a deadlier threat at leadoff. He can do everything that Rickey could not except walk, and that's because he feels a hit is more "honorable" than a walk.

 

[Cal166]

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/video/index.php?pid=8ZRioCHe0T5nC1R6R8kebbOzBsqGMmw_

60 minutes piece on Pujols

Great piece, what a standup guy! Picked on the 13th round #402 overall and now still not being paid on the top 20.

 

[PimpJuice]

If we are talking RIGHT NOW in baseball, Tulo is the best shortstop in the game, period. He helped set the MLB fielding record for a team in 2007.

Wrong....Hanley Ramirez is way better but you're obviously a fan boy.

 

[SP33Demon]

If we are talking RIGHT NOW in baseball, Tulo is the best shortstop in the game, period. He helped set the MLB fielding record for a team in 2007.

What other shortstop can do this consistently?

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13689155

I have seen so many of these plays it's almost routine for him now. That ball was thrown all the way to 1B in the air while he was jumping away from 1B. Cannon of an arm.

So I don't think you can have him not in the top 10. And defensively only he's in the top 5.

.315, 27HR, 95 RBIs last season in only 122 games.

And the only person to hit more HR's than he did in September of last year in MLB history was some guy named Babe Ruth.

His biggest problem was playing with Colorado. He was overlooked because of the market here, though people are finally paying attention to what goes on.

No, Tulo is not the best shortstop, it's Hanley Ramirez. Hanley has almost a 20 point Adjusted OPS+ career advantage and he's done it for 3 seasons more (see: longevity). He averages 40 stolen bases per year vs 12 for Tulo. Let's keep going, Batting Average: .312 to .290. WAR value, Hanley is better every year except 2010 which tells me that Hanley's offense more than makes up for Tulo's combined offense and defense. Keep in mind that Tulo also bats in the #1 hitter's park vs Hanley's at #18.

Also, why did Tulo only play 122 games in 2010? Why only 100 in 2008? Longevity has a lot to do with where I ranked players. I'm not putting Josh Hamilton in my top 10 because his health is a huge factor and it's habitual. Same with Tulo, he should have 4 full years but has 2. That's not enough to evaluate a player.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Rickey still has a lower stolen base to caught stealing than Ichiro (80% to 81%). He struck out at a higher rate (7%). He has 1/2 the intentional walks (61) in 24 seasons as Ichiro (163) in 10 seasons. Why? Because Ichiro gets better at .337 with runners in scoring position (RISP), Rickey gets worse at .265.

He averaged 95 runs a season scored vs Ichiro's 105. He averaged 46 RBI's a season to Ichiro's 56. Why is Rickey better again? Because he was 20 points higher in career on base %?

I could understand if Rickey stole every 9 out of 10 bases, but he didn't. He wasn't feared at plate like Ichiro. His defense was a liabilty, his arm was average. He batted over 50 points lower with less power.

Let's make a list Against Rickey:
1) Much worse defense
2) Much worse arm
3) 50+ points lower in batting average
4) 70+ points lower in batting average with RISP (see: clutch)
5) 1/2+ intentional walks
6) lower stolen base %
7) higher strikeout rate when swinging at the ball
8) less runs per season scored
9) less RBI's hit per season
10) less power

For Rickey:
1) higher OBP% by 20+ points due to more walks
2) more total cumulative stats because he played his entire career in the U.S.

So you're picking Rickey because he walked more but was worse in every other category. Wow.

Wow. I can cherry pick stats also but I'll stick with leadoff hitter stats:

Runs produced per game(runs + rbi's) -> Rickey
OBA -> Rickey
OPS -> Rickey
SB per game -> Rickey
HR per game -> Rickey (only b/c you mentioned power)

 

[SP33Demon]

Wow. I can cherry pick stats also but I'll stick with leadoff hitter stats:

Runs produced per game(runs + rbi's) -> Rickey
OBA -> Rickey
OPS -> Rickey
SB per game -> Rickey
HR per game -> Rickey (only b/c you mentioned power)

All already covered by Rickey's higher walk rate and lower steal %. If Seattle wanted Ichiro to steal 200, he'd have more steals than if Rickey stole 200. Do you know what % is?

HR/game doesn't matter because Ichiro still outslugs him (SLG%). I didn't cherry pick doubles and triples so stop lying. Ichiro has more power than Rickey, it's indisputable.

Again, the only thing Rickey did better was walk.

 

[BudAshes]

Read my above post, the only thing Rickey was better at than Ichiro was walks. Every other category (including stolen base %), Rickey is worse. While walking is a big part of a leadoff hitter, you cannot say that one player is better because of only that. There has to be something else. Ichiro is just a better all around player and a deadlier threat at leadoff. He can do everything that Rickey could not except walk, and that's because he feels a hit is more "honorable" than a walk.

You completely ignored my post.

I said rickeys best years were better than ichiros best years.

Henderson:

146r , 172h , 24hr, 80sb, 72rbi, 314ba, 419obp, 516slg

Ichiro:

101r, 262h, 8hr, 36sb, 60rbi, 372ba, 414obp, 455slg

Rickey had a lot of poor seasons mixed in(cocaine's a hell of a drug) but at his best there was no one you would rather have leading off.

 

[dmoney1980]

statistically Chase Utley is the most valueable player of this generation. He has the highest WAR (wins abover replacement). Now, if I had to pick one player today to build a team around, thats different. Tulo is great but I think playing in Coors helps his stats. Hanley is great I would say you can't go wrong with either guy there. The one guy who I think will be a monster is Mike Stanton (Marlins). He's 6'5" 250, known for his monster HR's in the minors. I wouldn't bet against him being in the top 5 in a couple of years.

Regarding the Iciro / Rickey debate - both are all time greats but some of these points make no sense. A leadoff guy is guaranteed to leadoff an inning only once per game, so having HR power is a big plus. And I hate it when people say "Ichiro can hit HR's but he prefers singles" .... yeah let me hit a single here so I can let the next 3 guys get out and leave me stranded, no point in taking a 1-0 lead here. But as far as leadoff hitters go, give me the guy with the higher OBP

 

[Capt Caveman]

A couple of the more recent articles I found:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/371187-the-top-10-leadoff-hitters-in-mlb-history

http://ichifan51.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/10/ichiro-as-a-leadoff-hitter.html

 

[BudAshes]

statistically Chase Utley is the most valueable player of this generation. He has the highest WAR (wins abover replacement). Now, if I had to pick one player today to build a team around, thats different. Tulo is great but I think playing in Coors helps his stats. Hanley is great I would say you can't go wrong with either guy there. The one guy who I think will be a monster is Mike Stanton (Marlins). He's 6'5" 250, known for his monster HR's in the minors. I wouldn't bet against him being in the top 5 in a couple of years.

Regarding the Iciro / Rickey debate - both are all time greats but some of these points make no sense. A leadoff guy is guaranteed to leadoff an inning only once per game, so having HR power is a big plus. And I hate it when people say "Ichiro can hit HR's but he prefers singles" .... yeah let me hit a single here so I can let the next 3 guys get out and leave me stranded, no point in taking a 1-0 lead here. But as far as leadoff hitters go, give me the guy with the higher OBP

Yeah this is my exact point. Ichiro is awesome as a complimentary player but he's not good enough to be the superstar of the team.

I also agree about chase utley being ultra valuable. If he wasn't so unhealthy lately he would be a yearly mvp candidate.

 

[actuarial]

Rickey still has a lower stolen base to caught stealing than Ichiro (80% to 81%). He struck out at a higher rate (7%). He has 1/2 the intentional walks (61) in 24 seasons as Ichiro (163) in 10 seasons. Why? Because Ichiro gets better at .337 with runners in scoring position (RISP), Rickey gets worse at .265.

You can't just compare career stats of two guys, especially when one is in his prime. Usually you should take a 10 year stretch and look at stats (which I don't have time to do). But just looking at some random stats I can come up with a Ricky argument:

Lead league in offensive WAR: Ricky 2 (10 top-5s / 12 top-10s) / Ichiro 0 (3 top-10s)

Batting average top 5: Ricky 3 / Ichiro 6 -> Huge Ichiro advantage, but Ricky could hit too.

Top-3 OBP: Ricky 9 (!) / Ichiro 1 (one of the most important stats for a lead-off guy)

Led league in SB: Ricky 12 (!) (15 top-5s / 21 top-10s) / Ichiro 1 (10 top-5s)

Led league in runs scored: Ricky 5 (11 top-5s) / Ichiro 0 (7 top-10s)

And just for you:
Top-3 defensive WAR: Ricky 4 / Ichiro 1

 

[Capt Caveman]

All already covered by Rickey's higher walk rate and lower steal %. If Seattle wanted Ichiro to steal 200, he'd have more steals than if Rickey stole 200. Do you know what % is?

HR/game doesn't matter because Ichiro still outslugs him (SLG%). I didn't cherry pick doubles and triples so stop lying. Ichiro has more power than Rickey, it's indisputable.

Again, the only thing Rickey did better was walk.

That's a what-if when it comes to steals. Would Ichiro be as healthy if he stole as many bases as Rickey?

Slugging(power) -> Rickey .419 and Ichiro .429

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Wtf? Only one mention of Josh Hamilton and they had him 7 on the list. Top 5 player easily. Dude had Youkilis in the top 10 and not Josh Hamilton. Seriously man. Homer much?

 

[SP33Demon]

statistically Chase Utley is the most valueable player of this generation. He has the highest WAR (wins abover replacement). Now, if I had to pick one player today to build a team around, thats different. Tulo is great but I think playing in Coors helps his stats. Hanley is great I would say you can't go wrong with either guy there. The one guy who I think will be a monster is Mike Stanton (Marlins). He's 6'5" 250, known for his monster HR's in the minors. I wouldn't bet against him being in the top 5 in a couple of years.

Regarding the Iciro / Rickey debate - both are all time greats but some of these points make no sense. A leadoff guy is guaranteed to leadoff an inning only once per game, so having HR power is a big plus. And I hate it when people say "Ichiro can hit HR's but he prefers singles" .... yeah let me hit a single here so I can let the next 3 guys get out and leave me stranded, no point in taking a 1-0 lead here. But as far as leadoff hitters go, give me the guy with the higher OBP

The big question would be, how much higher OBP? And at the sacrifice of 50+ points in batting average, overall defense, and power? Hell no. I'll take the best pure singles hitter of our generation over that sht.

As far as Utley, are you crazy? Pujols murders him in WAR, it's not even close. Pujols averages 8.3, Utley's best season was 7.7. lol

 

[JS80]

Umm...Ricky is #1 by a long shot.

 

[actuarial]

HR/game doesn't matter because Ichiro still outslugs him (SLG%). I didn't cherry pick doubles and triples so stop lying. Ichiro has more power than Rickey, it's indisputable.

Just no.

Ichiro top-5 SLG% seasons: 465/457/455/436/436

Seasons where Ricky's SLG% was higher than Ichiro's best season: 577/553/516/497/474/469/466

That's 7 seasons better than Ichiro's best. He murders Ichiro top-5 to top-5 by an average of 73 points. He also has two top-10s in the league (to Ichiro's zero).

 

[JS80]

Just no.

Ichiro top-5 SLG% seasons: 465/457/455/436/436

Seasons where Ricky's SLG% was higher than Ichiro's best season: 577/553/516/497/474/469/466

That's 7 seasons better than Ichiro's best. He murders Ichiro top-5 to top-5 by an average of 73 points. He also has two top-10s in the league (to Ichiro's zero).

plus add longevity of Ricky and he's hands down #1 forever by a long shot.

 

[SP33Demon]

You can't just compare career stats of two guys, especially when one is in his prime. Usually you should take a 10 year stretch and look at stats (which I don't have time to do). But just looking at some random stats I can come up with a Ricky argument:

Lead league in offensive WAR: Ricky 2 (10 top-5s / 12 top-10s) / Ichiro 0 (3 top-10s)

Batting average top 5: Ricky 3 / Ichiro 6 -> Huge Ichiro advantage, but Ricky could hit too.

Top-3 OBP: Ricky 9 (!) / Ichiro 1 (one of the most important stats for a lead-off guy)

Led league in SB: Ricky 12 (!) (15 top-5s / 21 top-10s) / Ichiro 1 (10 top-5s)

Led league in runs scored: Ricky 5 (11 top-5s) / Ichiro 0 (7 top-10s)

And just for you:
Top-3 defensive WAR: Ricky 4 / Ichiro 1

This is a much better case, however I don't cherry pick best years because you have to look at the entire picture. Are we also taking Ichiro's stats from Japan too? Obviously not, all 3 are different era's... which means that Rickey had more years to "lead the league" in certain categories.

If Rickey was a top 3 defensive WAR, where are his gold gloves? I think he actually may have 1, but obviously Ichiro with 10 in a row trumps that. Also, I don't know what website you're using but baseball reference has the best dWAR stats. And Rickey does have a 4-3 "top 3" edge, but Ichiro wins in top 10. All in all it's cherry picking something that we know Ichiro is much better at. The fact that Rickey only had 5 good years on defense out of 24, but Ichiro is 10/10 should tell you something.

Leading in stolen base means nothing without percentage. Is Trevor Hoffman better than Mariano River because he has more saves? Of course not, Rivera saved a higher % of games just like Ichiro steals at a slightly higher % than Rickey. How many times did Rickey lead the league in caught stealing? 5 times, Ichiro 1.

Runs scored, you could argue is a function of team batting but Ichiro still wins in more runs scored per season.

Here's a big one: How many times has Rickey led the league in hits? Once. Ichiro: every year he's played (10).

Would you rather have a leadoff guy lead in walks or hits? Last I checked, a hit can drive in a run a lot better than a walk and is more valuable. Especially if the person batting with a man in scoring position is batting 70 points higher. No, 20 points higher in OBP doesn't make up for such a gap. Hitting transcends the leadoff spot.

 

[SP33Demon]

plus add longevity of Ricky and he's hands down #1 forever by a long shot.

How many full seasons has Rickey played? Answer: ZERO. Steroids does a lot to your body after age 35. Hell, how many seasons has Rickey played even 158 games? ZERO.

How many full seasons has Ichiro played, not counting Japan?
Three. How many 158 or more? Seven.

Let's talk longevity and how Rickey could have played 30 seasons if he didn't do roids.

 

[SP33Demon]

Just no.

Ichiro top-5 SLG% seasons: 465/457/455/436/436

Seasons where Ricky's SLG% was higher than Ichiro's best season: 577/553/516/497/474/469/466

That's 7 seasons better than Ichiro's best. He murders Ichiro top-5 to top-5 by an average of 73 points. He also has two top-10s in the league (to Ichiro's zero).

Still, it wasn't enough to beat Ichiro's lifetime SLG%. Can't just ignore those shtty seasons, eh? Ichiro was hands down more consistent in power and Rickey should have retired in 1996 after season 17.

 

[JS80]

How many full seasons has Rickey played? Answer: ZERO. Steroids does a lot to your body after age 35. Hell, how many seasons has Rickey played even 158 games? ZERO.

How many full seasons has Ichiro played, not counting Japan?
Three. How many 158 or more? Seven.

Let's talk longevity and how Rickey could have played 30 seasons if he didn't do roids.

lol Ricky on roids? Now you just hatin'

A reporter asked Henderson if Ken Caminiti's estimate that 50 percent of Major League players were taking steroids was accurate. His response was, "Well, Rickey's not one of them, so that's 49 percent right there."

lol awesome rickyisms

http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?t=212518

 

[Capt Caveman]

Runs scored, you could argue is a function of team batting but Ichiro still wins in more runs scored per season.

Here's a big one: How many times has Rickey led the league in hits? Once. Ichiro: every year he's played (10).

Would you rather have a leadoff guy lead in walks or hits? Last I checked, a hit can drive in a run a lot better than a walk and is more valuable. Especially if the person batting with a man in scoring position is batting 70 points higher. No, 20 points higher in OBP doesn't make up for such a gap. Hitting transcends the leadoff spot.

For a leadoff man, I want him on base, regardless if it's by walk or hit. When you're leading-off, no one is on base.

Runs per game -> Rickey