who's the best baseball player in the MLB right now?

[actuarial]

All already covered by Rickey's higher walk rate and lower steal %. If Seattle wanted Ichiro to steal 200, he'd have more steals than if Rickey stole 200. Do you know what % is?

So if Dwight Howard took 30 shots would he still shoot the same percentage?

 

[dmoney1980]

The big question would be, how much higher OBP? And at the sacrifice of 50+ points in batting average, overall defense, and power? Hell no. I'll take the best pure singles hitter of our generation over that sht.

As far as Utley, are you crazy? Pujols murders him in WAR, it's not even close. Pujols averages 8.3, Utley's best season was 7.7. lol

I wasn't even counting Pujols because that guy is on another planet. But seriously any baseball expert will tell you that Chase Utley's contribution at the plate, with the glove, and on the bases puts him among the elite for most "valuable" and all around best, especially because he does everything so much better than the other second basemen in the league

 

[Numenorean]

Wrong....Hanley Ramirez is way better but you're obviously a fan boy.

Hanley Ramirez is certainly good, but no, Tulo is better.

 

[Numenorean]

Also, why did Tulo only play 122 games in 2010? Why only 100 in 2008? Longevity has a lot to do with where I ranked players. I'm not putting Josh Hamilton in my top 10 because his health is a huge factor and it's habitual. Same with Tulo, he should have 4 full years but has 2. That's not enough to evaluate a player.

He only played 122 last season because he was drilled by a Twins pitcher in the wrist.

You can't say that's a health problem. Nothing you can do about being hit by a pitch.

 

[zinfamous]

So? Tulo should have at least 2. He is far better than Pujols defensively.

no one cares about defense. It's not as decisive in baseball as it is in other sports.

 

[Numenorean]

no one cares about defense. It's not as decisive in baseball as it is in other sports.

I care about defense. The only thing you can't defend is a home run. Beyond that defense and good pitching will win you more games than if you just had a bunch of offensive players that were mediocre at defense and average pitching.

 

[actuarial]

This is a much better case, however I don't cherry pick best years because you have to look at the entire picture. Are we also taking Ichiro's stats from Japan too? Obviously not, all 3 are different era's... which means that Rickey had more years to "lead the league" in certain categories.

If Rickey was a top 3 defensive WAR, where are his gold gloves? I think he actually may have 1, but obviously Ichiro with 10 in a row trumps that. Also, I don't know what website you're using but baseball reference has the best dWAR stats. And Rickey does have a 4-3 "top 3" edge, but Ichiro wins in top 10. All in all it's cherry picking something that we know Ichiro is much better at. The fact that Rickey only had 5 good years on defense out of 24, but Ichiro is 10/10 should tell you something.

Of course Ichiro trumps that. I was just pointing out that Ricky had times were he was a top defensive player as well. The defensive argument is ridiculous anyways, since we're talking about lead-off hitter.

Leading in stolen base means nothing without percentage. Is Trevor Hoffman better than Mariano River because he has more saves? Of course not, Rivera saved a higher % of games just like Ichiro steals at a slightly higher % than Rickey. How many times did Rickey lead the league in caught stealing? 5 times, Ichiro 1.

I take a guy who steals 100 bases on 80% than 50 on 81% ANY day. You need to look at the combination of both. I could argue that it would be impossible for Ichiro to steal 100 bases. If he could steal 100 and maintain the same percentage, he would, be he can't.

Runs scored, you could argue is a function of team batting but Ichiro still wins in more runs scored per season.

Over a whole career. Ichiro hasn't even played his down years yet.

How about runs per 162 (if you like batting average you should like this). Over his first 10 seasons (Ichiro's completed 10 seasons) Ricky averaged 130 runs per 162 games. Ichiro 106. Look at some of the abysmal totals at the end of Rickey's career. Career averages are silly. Ichiro's best seasons in the MLB were significantly less effective offensively than Ricky's best.

Here's a big one: How many times has Rickey led the league in hits? Once. Ichiro: every year he's played (10).

I thought counting stats didn't matter, only percentages?

Would you rather have a leadoff guy lead in walks or hits? Last I checked, a hit can drive in a run a lot better than a walk and is more valuable. Especially if the person batting with a man in scoring position is batting 70 points higher. No, 20 points higher in OBP doesn't make up for such a gap. Hitting transcends the leadoff spot.

I'd rather have a guy that can get on base the most (walks plus hits) which is why OBP is so important, and I'd rather a guy get on base before my best hitters than have the ability to drive in a run when my scrubs manage to get on base. And offensive WAR seems to agree with me.

Still, it wasn't enough to beat Ichiro's lifetime SLG%. Can't just ignore those shtty seasons, eh? Ichiro was hands down more consistent in power and Rickey should have retired in 1996 after season 17.

So now Ricky becomes a worse player than Ichiro because he didn't retire early enough? That's basically the only argument you have. His best year's weren't better than Ricky. And you don't even know what Ichiro's lifetime SLG% is. You only know the SLG% of his first 10 seasons, and Ricky's first 10 years were higher than Ichiro's.

 

[davmat787]

I am conflicted on the Ichiro <> Ricky debate as I am a fan of both, but I would add that Ichiro has played on horrible offensive teams, whereas Ricky had a much better supporting cast for the most part. Also, SB was a much bigger part of the game during Ricky's prime, the SB leaders for both leagues (Vince Coleman anyone?) usually had 100 or more. What that means as to deciding who is better, I am not sure, just wanted to throw this out there.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Rickey still has a lower stolen base to caught stealing than Ichiro (80% to 81%). He struck out at a higher rate (7%). He has 1/2 the intentional walks (61) in 24 seasons as Ichiro (163) in 10 seasons. Why? Because Ichiro gets better at .337 with runners in scoring position (RISP), Rickey gets worse at .265.

He averaged 95 runs a season scored vs Ichiro's 105. He averaged 46 RBI's a season to Ichiro's 56. Why is Rickey better again? Because he was 20 points higher in career on base %?

I could understand if Rickey stole every 9 out of 10 bases, but he didn't. He wasn't feared at plate like Ichiro. His defense was a liabilty, his arm was average. He batted over 50 points lower with less power.

Let's make a list Against Rickey:
1) Much worse defense
2) Much worse arm
3) 50+ points lower in batting average
4) 70+ points lower in batting average with RISP (see: clutch)
5) 1/2+ intentional walks
6) lower stolen base %
7) higher strikeout rate when swinging at the ball
8) less runs per season scored
9) less RBI's hit per season
10) less power

For Rickey:
1) higher OBP% by 20+ points due to more walks
2) more total cumulative stats because he played his entire career in the U.S.

So you're picking Rickey because he walked more but was worse in every other category. Wow.

Ichiro wishes that he was as productive as Rickey Henderson. His highest WAR so far is at 7.2 and he's been at 4.8 - 5.5 for the last few seasons. Meanwhile, Rickey Henderson managed to put up WARs over 10 twice and was at or over 7.0 five times in his career.

I mean when you're using things like "higher strikeout rate when swinging at the ball" as a negative, that's when you know that you refuse to look at overall production and just have a pathetic argument.

 

[Perknose]

The only thing you can't defend is a home run.

Technically not true. I've seen outfielders leap above the wall to rob hitters of a home run.

Turning a home run into an out. If that's not defending a home run, I don't know what is!

 

[RabidMongoose]

Rickey still has a lower stolen base to caught stealing than Ichiro (80&#37; to 81%). He struck out at a higher rate (7%). He has 1/2 the intentional walks (61) in 24 seasons as Ichiro (163) in 10 seasons. Why? Because Ichiro gets better at .337 with runners in scoring position (RISP), Rickey gets worse at .265.

He averaged 95 runs a season scored vs Ichiro's 105. He averaged 46 RBI's a season to Ichiro's 56. Why is Rickey better again? Because he was 20 points higher in career on base %?

Wow, what a ridiculous argument and that's not even pointing out the ridiculousness of looking at 'runs scored' for an individual player.

Henderson may have averaged 95 runs a season, but that's because you're factoring in seasons when he was 40+ years old and seasons where he didn't play the whole year to bring the number down. Moreover, even if you include his 40+ year old seasons and look at runs per 162 games, then Henderson is at 121 runs per season. Meanwhile, Ichiro is at 106 and that number will just continue to drop as he keeps playing as he ages.

 

[RabidMongoose]

If Rickey was a top 3 defensive WAR, where are his gold gloves? I think he actually may have 1, but obviously Ichiro with 10 in a row trumps that. Also, I don't know what website you're using but baseball reference has the best dWAR stats. And Rickey does have a 4-3 "top 3" edge, but Ichiro wins in top 10. All in all it's cherry picking something that we know Ichiro is much better at. The fact that Rickey only had 5 good years on defense out of 24, but Ichiro is 10/10 should tell you something.

It's not like Gold Gloves are an objective evaluation of defensive ability.

Rickey Henderson was an elite defensive OF. He had much more than 5 good defensive seasons. Really, defense is not that much of a difference between Rickey Henderson and Ichiro.

Here's a big one: How many times has Rickey led the league in hits? Once. Ichiro: every year he's played (10).

That's because Henderson had an ability to get on base and generate walks. Since Ichiro doesn't take many walks, he has a hell of a lot more ABs and thus gets more hits. For example, who do you think usually leads the AL in ABs? Ichiro during 7 of the last 10 seasons.

Would you rather have a leadoff guy lead in walks or hits? Last I checked, a hit can drive in a run a lot better than a walk and is more valuable. Especially if the person batting with a man in scoring position is batting 70 points higher. No, 20 points higher in OBP doesn't make up for such a gap. Hitting transcends the leadoff spot.

I'd rather have the leadoff player lead in OBP. And 20 points in OBP is huge in baseball.

I think that this is a type of argument where the more modern and progressive baseball thinking will differ from those old school types who don't really look at advanced statistics.

 

[Numenorean]

Technically not true. I've seen outfielders leap above the wall to rob hitters of a home run.

Turning a home run into an out. If that's not defending a home run, I don't know what is!

If they catch it, then it isn't a home run now is it?

 

[PimpJuice]

Hanley Ramirez is certainly good, but no, Tulo is better.

Tulo - .290/.362/.495 career line, .368 wOBA, 92 HR (~23 per year) 42 SB (~10 per year)

Hanley - .313/.385/.520 career line, .393 wOBA, 124 HR (~25 per year), 196 SB (~39 per year)

None of this takes into account the lineups and the home ballparks they each play in which are a HUGE advantage to Tulo yet Hanley trumps him.

You're wrong and you can't admit it, I find that funny. Go ahead and continue your man crush on Tulo though, its cute.

 

[IAteYourMother]

no one cares about defense. It's not as decisive in baseball as it is in other sports.

positional value matters so much in baseball, what are you talking about?

 

[IAteYourMother]

I am sorry, but if you try to use gold gloves to argue defensive value, then you've lost all credibility to debate baseball

 

[RabidMongoose]

Tulo - .290/.362/.495 career line, .368 wOBA, 92 HR (~23 per year) 42 SB (~10 per year)

Hanley - .313/.385/.520 career line, .393 wOBA, 124 HR (~25 per year), 196 SB (~39 per year)

None of this takes into account the lineups and the home ballparks they each play in which are a HUGE advantage to Tulo yet Hanley trumps him.

You're wrong and you can't admit it, I find that funny. Go ahead and continue your man crush on Tulo though, its cute.

Problem is that Hanley Ramirez is an absolute butcher at SS and Tulowitzki is actually a good SS, so that makes up for a lot of the difference. However, I'm not sure if Tulowitzki is better than Hanley Ramirez right now. He was certainly better than last season, but Hanley Ramirez had a down season. I think that this is a case where you could go either way depending on how you feel these players will perform over the next couple of years.

 

[Numenorean]

Tulo - .290/.362/.495 career line, .368 wOBA, 92 HR (~23 per year) 42 SB (~10 per year)

Hanley - .313/.385/.520 career line, .393 wOBA, 124 HR (~25 per year), 196 SB (~39 per year)

None of this takes into account the lineups and the home ballparks they each play in which are a HUGE advantage to Tulo yet Hanley trumps him.

You're wrong and you can't admit it, I find that funny. Go ahead and continue your man crush on Tulo though, its cute.

Defense is why Tulo is better. We aren't asking who is a better offensive baseball player. This is overall. Which includes defense.

 

[Marinski]

Has anybody said Lincecum yet? That dudes throwing heaters

 

[Marinski]

Since youre talkin shortstops ill say Jimmy Rollins

 

[zinfamous]

I care about defense. The only thing you can't defend is a home run. Beyond that defense and good pitching will win you more games than if you just had a bunch of offensive players that were mediocre at defense and average pitching.

there are positions and times when defense certainly matters, especially at SS and 2nd; but a good offense always has been, and always will be far more important.

There's only a few truly stand out defensive wizards in any given generation, it seems, as much of solid, necessary defensive play is pretty much standard at the ML level. By the time you're playing at ML level, you should be able to do 95% of what is required in defense.

There are instances where a single defensive play can indeed change a game, but statistically, it's nothing like how important offense is.

I think it was one of those James stats from a decade or so ago, showing that overall, defense is an insignificant factor in determining a team's success from year to year. People want to believe it matters, because they feel they see things all the time. it's just that the reality doesn't exist in the numbers.

When teams lose because of bad defense--that's generally because of errors. Not so much bad defense, really, just bonehead mistakes. Anyone can make those.

 

[actuarial]

there are positions and times when defense certainly matters, especially at SS and 2nd; but a good offense always has been, and always will be far more important.

There's only a few truly stand out defensive wizards in any given generation, it seems, as much of solid, necessary defensive play is pretty much standard at the ML level. By the time you're playing at ML level, you should be able to do 95% of what is required in defense.

There are instances where a single defensive play can indeed change a game, but statistically, it's nothing like how important offense is.

I think it was one of those James stats from a decade or so ago, showing that overall, defense is an insignificant factor in determining a team's success from year to year. People want to believe it matters, because they feel they see things all the time. it's just that the reality doesn't exist in the numbers.

When teams lose because of bad defense--that's generally because of errors. Not so much bad defense, really, just bonehead mistakes. Anyone can make those.

The team with the better hitters will always win, but if hitting is really close than obviously a better defender is more valuable (if only marginally).

Other than Cs, where the defensive part of the game is probably as important.

 

[actuarial]

Also this

 

[JS80]

no one cares about defense. It's not as decisive in baseball as it is in other sports.

lol tell that to Buckner!

 

[RabidMongoose]

there are positions and times when defense certainly matters, especially at SS and 2nd; but a good offense always has been, and always will be far more important.

There's only a few truly stand out defensive wizards in any given generation, it seems, as much of solid, necessary defensive play is pretty much standard at the ML level. By the time you're playing at ML level, you should be able to do 95% of what is required in defense.

There are instances where a single defensive play can indeed change a game, but statistically, it's nothing like how important offense is.

I think it was one of those James stats from a decade or so ago, showing that overall, defense is an insignificant factor in determining a team's success from year to year. People want to believe it matters, because they feel they see things all the time. it's just that the reality doesn't exist in the numbers.

When teams lose because of bad defense--that's generally because of errors. Not so much bad defense, really, just bonehead mistakes. Anyone can make those.

I'd like to know exactly what that study is because modern sabermetrics do value defense as being important. Is it as important as offense? Well, probably not, but it can make up a significant portion of a player's production and value.