Why Apple Stinks. We won't let you downgrade software?

[AtlantaBob]

I should note that I'm posting this from a MacBook -- the best laptop I've ever owned. That being said, Apple has a bunch of freaking idiots on staff/is run by a bunch of freaking idiots.

I have an iPod Touch 2nd Gen sitting on the table in front of me. It's gotten horrible battery life ever since "upgrading" to iOS 4. (Apparently this is due to "persistant" wifi when sleeping -- who the hell wants that feature? -- or, if they do, they could at least put a "on/off" option for it.) Finally, I've had enough. I try to downgrade. But Apple won't _let_ you downgrade to iOS 3.x. It's not like they're just not making the previous software available. No, they have taken active steps to digitally sign their software so that this is impossible -- even if, as in my case, you have the previous software backed up on your computer (stored automatically by iTunes).

Try as I might, I can't come up with any reason for Apple to do this, except to try to prevent people from jailbreaking, etc. Given the recent Library of Congress decision on copyright, I'd love to see how they can try to justify this (or, how they can try to stop people from cracking their software).

I'm sure that lots of people know this, but I just wanted to rant. Thanks.

 

[Patranus]

http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=757

Enjoy.

 

[Kmax82]

I don't know if this works on the iPod Touches, but it worked perfectly on my friend's 3g.

http://lifehacker.com/5572003/how-to-downgrade-your-iphone-3g%5Bs%5D-from-ios-4-to-ios-313

BTW, I'm one of the people that wants persistent WiFi. It's wonderful, and keeps me from using cell data when I have my phone in sleep mode.

 

[mmntech]

I don't know if this works on the iPod Touches, but it worked perfectly on my friend's 3g.

http://lifehacker.com/5572003/how-to-downgrade-your-iphone-3g%5Bs%5D-from-ios-4-to-ios-313

I used this method to downgrade my 3G. Should work for the iTouch.

Regardless of what Apple says, iOS4 does NOT run on iPhone 3G era hardware. I sometimes wonder whether they actually test their stuff.

 

[Emulex]

ios 4 works fine with a clean load and disable background wallpaper (rendered by graphics chip) and all spotlite indexing.


i have a clean 3G here and its quite fine. I'd lay low on the multitasking. the 128meg of ram is really weak - unless you want to mkswap or something - the iphone 4 has 512 and the ipad has 256 which is alot more given the cost of the core o/s.

think of iphone 3 as xp pc with 512meg, ipad 1gb, iphone4 2gb.

the hella fast gain is the 512 ->1gb if 50% of that is used by the o/s and buffers. make sense?

you can jb and swap.

you can use FW umbrella to store your blobs can roll back to older firmwares.

just need to read the instructions and be in the know.

 

[KeypoX]

You really have watch what your doing with apple products. The whole they know better than the customer is a horrible policy. But only hurts the less tech savvy customers. Basically 99 percent of apple customers

 

[ViRGE]

Unfortunately this is rather normal in the consumer electronics industry - Apple is by no means alone here. Any device that wants to prevent unauthorized access needs to implement this kind of security measure, otherwise legit users could simply revert to an old firmware to hack in to their devices, and malware authors could trigger a downgrade in order to recreate an exploit in order to take control of a device.

Most phones are this way, as are game consoles (PS3, Xbox 360, PSP, DSi, and the Wii), BluRay players, and really any other consumer device that lets users access commercial content. Really it all goes back to piracy, and it's a hell of a lot harder to commit piracy if you have a mechanism to close off exploits that allow the execution of unsigned code. Unfortunately homebrew applications and legitimate customer desires to downgrade get caught up in this mess, but device manufacturers believe that this is better than allowing piracy.

Honestly the only device as of late that isn't intentionally locked down like this is the Nexus One, and that's "protected" by the fact that it's otherwise an undesirable Android phone backed by poor support.

Anyhow to address your more pressing concerns, depending on what model of the iPod Touch 2G it is, it may be possible to downgrade it. Apple updated the bootrom to block iOS downgrades mid-run - later models require Apple to sign-off on the firmware at install time (which they won't do for old versions of firmware) while earlier models had a bootrom that didn't ask for a signature. If you have an older model, then Kmax82's instructions will work, otherwise you are stuck.

On a side note this is why it's a good idea to backup the SHSH blob of your phone at every firmware version using Tiny Umbrella, that way you have Apple's signature on file to force a downgrade in the future if you'd like to. Once Apple stops signing firmwares it's too late, but you can at least grab your SHSH blob for 4.0.1 right now so that you can revert to that in the future.

Given the recent Library of Congress decision on copyright, I'd love to see how they can try to justify this (or, how they can try to stop people from cracking their software).

The Library of Congress decision only impacts the DMCA. Jailbreaking is not a DMCA violation, which means that it's not against the law and that companies (including Apple) cannot press charges against you for violating the law. However it is completely legal for them to attempt to prevent jailbreaking, and for something like a phone it's almost always against the terms of your contract to jailbreak the device. As such you can still have your contract terminated or be taken to court for a contractual violation.

 

[AtlantaBob]

Guys,

First, let me say thank you for some pretty reasoned responses, especially when my first statement was... let's face, it.... annoying.

Patranus and Kmax82:

It looks like from the links (especially the note/addendum on the lifehacker link) that Apple is now signing iOS releases, and you have to have saved a key from a previous install (which requires jailbreaking ahead of time) to restore. I would LOVE to be proven wrong on this... but all of the latest info that I can find suggests that this is true.... If not, I will eagerly be looking at PM's. Kmax82 - I'm glad that it's a useful feature for you! Obviously, some people love it, and some people (e.g., me) hate it. A choice somewhere in settings shouldn't kill anyone, right?

Emulex:

I have to agree and disagree. Once I wiped the iPod from the iTunes upgrade/restore and installed iOS 4 it did run faster. But it still seems to lag (again, in my experience) a little. It wasn't a big deal, but the fact that it seems to eat battery power for me on an iPod Touch 2nd Gen is a dealbreaker. From what I understand the iPod Touch's are only now embracing persistent wifi (which the phones seem to have had for a while on persistent 3G, EDGE)... from my understanding, that drops the perceived battery life of the iPod Touch significantly (I know it does in my case) without necessarily being implemented (or changing the battery life) on the iPhone. Of course, your milage may vary.

Finally, KeypoX, I'll agree with you on this. Most of the time, I think that Apple generally allows a work-around (even if it is a terminal command). I can understand that a company wants to maintain consistency across its products, and doesn't want to confuse a neophyte. But anyone who can do something useful via the command line (or who looks up on the web how they can downgrade to iOS 3.x) should be responsible for what happens. That being said, you're right, when they try to lock things down too much... there should be a user revolution.

Again, thanks guys for the suggestions and the reasoned responses. Am I wrong in thinking that Apple's new cryptographic key signing doesn't apply to the iPod Touch 2G?

 

[AtlantaBob]

Anyhow to address your more pressing concerns, depending on what model of the iPod Touch 2G it is, it may be possible to downgrade it. Apple updated the bootrom to block iOS downgrades mid-run - later models require Apple to sign-off on the firmware at install time (which they won't do for old versions of firmware) while earlier models had a bootrom that didn't ask for a signature. If you have an older model, then Kmax82's instructions will work, otherwise you are stuck.

On a side note this is why it's a good idea to backup the SHSH blob of your phone at every firmware version using Tiny Umbrella, that way you have Apple's signature on file to force a downgrade in the future if you'd like to. Once Apple stops signing firmwares it's too late, but you can at least grab your SHSH blob for 4.0.1 right now so that you can revert to that in the future.
The Library of Congress decision only impacts the DMCA. Jailbreaking is not a DMCA violation, which means that it's not against the law and that companies (including Apple) cannot press charges against you for violating the law. However it is completely legal for them to attempt to prevent jailbreaking, and for something like a phone it's almost always against the terms of your contract to jailbreak the device. As such you can still have your contract terminated or be taken to court for a contractual violation.

ViRGE --

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to an obviously upset post. I really appreciate your insight, particularly as a veteran member.

I believe that I've come across some points re: your statement about older/newer hardware before (and forgotten about them). Basically, as long as the S/N starts with an "M" (or whatever the previous designation is), you're fine and the crypto signing doesn't apply -- is that your understanding? If you have the later version... oops? And, of course, thanks for suggesting tinyUberella!

Re: the second point. I agree with you about the DCMA and the LOC ruling (and I was just $)*$@$ at Apple at the time), that being said, especially since it's an iPod Touch (and thus, requires no contract), it seems that under the new DCMA interpretation, Apple would have no recourse against a group that say, decided to crack their encryption key and post it far and wide across the internet. I find it funny, most of the time, I tend to side on the wonders of encryption -- here, I'm hoping that it is broken. As much as I understand that it is their right to try to prevent the product from being broken, I hope that their encryption keys are broken left and right just because they chose to be jerks about the whole process.

I still haven't seen a reasonable argument as to why a device such as an iPod Touch requires such a limitation on the upgrade cycle (and, I admit, I'm pretty pro-business and I'm happy to listen to a reasonable answer as to why Apple has acted the way they have). Does anyone have a thought?

 

[KeypoX]

Guys,

First, let me say thank you for some pretty reasoned responses, especially when my first statement was... let's face, it.... annoying.

Patranus and Kmax82:

It looks like from the links (especially the note/addendum on the lifehacker link) that Apple is now signing iOS releases, and you have to have saved a key from a previous install (which requires jailbreaking ahead of time) to restore.

nope you can use tiny umbrella to save blobs of a non jailbroken device. You might as well do it now.

 

[Kmax82]

It looks like from the links (especially the note/addendum on the lifehacker link) that Apple is now signing iOS releases, and you have to have saved a key from a previous install (which requires jailbreaking ahead of time) to restore. I would LOVE to be proven wrong on this... but all of the latest info that I can find suggests that this is true.... If not, I will eagerly be looking at PM's. Kmax82 - I'm glad that it's a useful feature for you! Obviously, some people love it, and some people (e.g., me) hate it. A choice somewhere in settings shouldn't kill anyone, right?

I agree. I think the always on WiFi should be an option.

As for going back to 3.1.3.. I would just give it a try. Worst case scenario, you have to restore back to 4.0 and use your backup.

 

[ViRGE]

ViRGE --

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to an obviously upset post. I really appreciate your insight, particularly as a veteran member.

I believe that I've come across some points re: your statement about older/newer hardware before (and forgotten about them). Basically, as long as the S/N starts with an "M" (or whatever the previous designation is), you're fine and the crypto signing doesn't apply -- is that your understanding? If you have the later version... oops? And, of course, thanks for suggesting tinyUberella!

The MB model has the old bootrom that can be exploited, while the MC model has the new bootrom that cannot. So you can only restore to an older version of iOS if it's an MB model.

Re: the second point. I agree with you about the DCMA and the LOC ruling (and I was just $)*$@$ at Apple at the time), that being said, especially since it's an iPod Touch (and thus, requires no contract), it seems that under the new DCMA interpretation, Apple would have no recourse against a group that say, decided to crack their encryption key and post it far and wide across the internet. I find it funny, most of the time, I tend to side on the wonders of encryption -- here, I'm hoping that it is broken. As much as I understand that it is their right to try to prevent the product from being broken, I hope that their encryption keys are broken left and right just because they chose to be jerks about the whole process.

It depends on what exactly happens. As it stands the only recourse Apple has is against the owner of a device, and only if they break their contract. Apple doesn't have any kind of recourse against the teams developing the jailbreak so long as they don't distribute Apple code. But to be clear, all of this is done by finding ways to exploit the device to make it do something it's not supposed to - no one has ever recovered the master signing key. If that were to happen you can be sure there would be a court case; the odds of recovering the master key are infinitesimal, so if someone did have it they quite likely stole it from Apple.

I still haven't seen a reasonable argument as to why a device such as an iPod Touch requires such a limitation on the upgrade cycle (and, I admit, I'm pretty pro-business and I'm happy to listen to a reasonable answer as to why Apple has acted the way they have). Does anyone have a thought?

To prevent piracy. It's not a contract violation, Apple just doesn't want people being able to pirate things (or be more capable of doing things that break the phone, for that matter). Whether that's reasonable or not is up to you, but that is the answer.

 

[AtlantaBob]

Well, the good news is that I have an MB, so I suppose there is a shot there (thanks again for the information, guys).

In the backup directory ~/Library/iTunes/iPodSoftwareUpdates there is a file that appears to be a cryptographic key (iPod_19.1.1.3.ipsw.signature -- it's just a hexadecimal string). This is not the same as the backup that people are mentioning with the SHSH backup with TinyUmberella, correct? Sorry, I'm just not that familiar with how the signing is done -- or whether it would be done on an individual (per iPod) or a general basis.

As far as the preventing piracy idea -- I can certainly appreciate the desire to do so. However, I think that where this particular approach fails for me is that by locking me in to iOS 4, Apple has effectively transformed the device which I originally bought from them. This transformation isn't a behind the scenes/lets close up an exploit only (which I could understand if not condone). Instead, they are attempting to lock me into a new feature set (which involves a LOT of slow typing, and, more importantly, significantly decreased battery life) which also happens to close some bugs that pirates exploited in the past.

If they would offer a downgrade to a security-hole closed version of iOS3.x, that kept the original features and performance, I doubt that I'd have any issue with them. Obviously, I don't expect this to happen, but... it would be nice.

As far as recovering the master key, I haven't paid much attention at all to the LOC ruling, but I wonder if it would be possible for Apple to seek criminal charges against someone who might steal the master key from them (now that it seems it could legitimately be used to circumvent DCMA issues). Of course, I'm sure they'd be able to ruin the persons life with a civil suit under the terms of an NDA. But it would seem to be difficult to file criminal charges against someone for merely repeating a 256- or 512- (or whatever) string of digits..... Any ATOT IP lawyers want to chime in? Again, thanks for the info all.

 

[Emulex]

just throw it away and buy a new one. iphone 3G 8gb or 16gb are in the 75-140 range around here with all accesories. clean. perfect

sell your old one with the new ios to some suckah. profit.

 

[Kmax82]

just throw it away and buy a new one. iphone 3G 8gb or 16gb are in the 75-140 range around here with all accesories. clean. perfect

sell your old one with the new ios to some suckah. profit.

That's an option as well.. heh.. just sold my 32GB 3GS for $425 on eBay.

 

[Nothinman]

just throw it away and buy a new one. iphone 3G 8gb or 16gb are in the 75-140 range around here with all accesories. clean. perfect

sell your old one with the new ios to some suckah. profit.

Which I'm sure is part of their agenda, they know most of the people willing to pay the high prices for their shit can also afford to to just throw away older, perfectly good hardware and buy new when they fuck it up with an update.

 

[AtlantaBob]

Which I'm sure is part of their agenda, they know most of the people willing to pay the high prices for their shit can also afford to to just throw away older, perfectly good hardware and buy new when they fuck it up with an update.

Yeah... I'm tempted to say this. Apparently iTunes 9.2.1. no longer allows you to update even the older hardware. I'll wait to post anything else related to this until I make it home and see if I can upgrade from an older computer that hasn't been updated.

 

[ViRGE]

Yeah... I'm tempted to say this. Apparently iTunes 9.2.1. no longer allows you to update even the older hardware. I'll wait to post anything else related to this until I make it home and see if I can upgrade from an older computer that hasn't been updated.

Huh? This is news to me. Where did you hear this?

 

[umrigar]

it's a good thing Apple doesn't FORCE anyone to upgrade from iOS 3 to iOS 4...

 

[ViRGE]

it's a good thing Apple doesn't FORCE anyone to upgrade from iOS 3 to iOS 4...

True. But there are going to be a number of angry people if Apple doesn't do a 3.1.4 to fix the PDF exploit in 3.1.3...

 

[AtlantaBob]

Huh? This is news to me. Where did you hear this?

ViRGE,

When I tried to update the software on my iPod, I got an error that said (roughly) "this version isn't supported." There is a chance that I was using the wrong software--at this site (http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=757)--I'm not sure that there is an iPod 2nd Gen 3.x software version.

I tried to use this update: 3.1.3 (3G): iPod3,1_3.1.3_7E18_Restore.ipsw

Would someone else mind taking a look at the site and see if they think it has 3.x software for a 2nd Gen iPod? Or, if anyone else has a link to a 3.x software for a 2nd Gen iPod, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

 

[Kmax82]

Would someone else mind taking a look at the site and see if they think it has 3.x software for a 2nd Gen iPod? Or, if anyone else has a link to a 3.x software for a 2nd Gen iPod, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

I use this site.. looks to have iPod Touch 2G firmware.

http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/firmware/

 

[Nothinman]

I use this site.. looks to have iPod Touch 2G firmware.

http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/firmware/

You trust firmware from some random website?

 

[KeypoX]

just throw it away and buy a new one. iphone 3G 8gb or 16gb are in the 75-140 range around here with all accesories. clean. perfect

where?

 

[ViRGE]

You trust firmware from some random website?

That site is nothing more than a directory of files available to download from Apple's CDN. All of the downloads come straight from Apple. And even if it wasn't, the hashes are all known.