Why are amplifiers so darn expensive??

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LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
126
I have a HTPC and I want to use the on-board sound card as the main audio source, not the HDMI. So the only option is to get stand alone amplifiers, but the are so freaking expensive, runs close to $1000 for the ones that have 7+ chancels. I saw a 2 channel Audiosource amp, 40 watt each channel for a little over 100 bucks, wow... Now I can get a 7.1 AVR which has a decoder, some form of preamp AND 80 watt per channel for under $500, so why are AMPs so expensive? low demand = lack of mass production? is that it?

Next question I have is, is it possible to use a AVR for amplification only? I doubt it as all I have seen is Composite, RCA or HDMI inputs... Some do come with AUX ports but that's gonna handle only 2 channels. Maybe find a bunch of super olds ones with aux input or just use the RCA and 2 channels? can that work?

Under $500.

shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa700

UPA-700 (7 Channel Amplifer)
100 watts / channel (4 ohms; all channels driven)
80 watts / channel (8 ohms; all channels driven)

That is ALL channels driven. Most AVRS use 2 channels driven as their specs. So they put out a bit more power than what they advertise.
 

Accord99

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2001
2,259
172
106
For that small of room, realistically your power use will be a few watts at most. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-75 connected to two Polk LSIM 703 speakers. The Pioneer idles at 60W. At loud audio levels, the Pioneer uses 61W.

Rather than worrying about amplification, get better speakers first.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
sure if you pay for shipping

I don't want one, I was just referring to the OP's budget of $500--seemed kinda generous of you since these sell for like $650+shipping on ebay . I'm looking forward to keeping my RX-A3000 and maybe using an updated Emotiva UMC-200 to drive it when an HDMI 2.0 update comes and get a 4K TV for the PC setup. I'm only driving a 2.2 PC setup anyway, I don't need any more power than it already provides for that purpose.
 
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DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
15,366
740
126
i got the audiosource and returned it. no control for bass/treble. not sure if that matters to you

No I don't really care about bass/treble. May I know what you were using them for and what speakers you were using, who was your experience besides the bass/treble control?
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,036
548
126
Huh? An amp is an amp. All it does it amplify whatever you put into it. At most it might have gain control.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
The low end receivers now use languages that disguise their true output.

I would also point out that you can get a rather inexpensive, high power amplifier in Class D these days. That has what made it possible to get these 7.1 1000+ W receivers.
 

luv2liv

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
3,497
94
91
No I don't really care about bass/treble. May I know what you were using them for and what speakers you were using, who was your experience besides the bass/treble control?

i returned it also because it was very big. check out the dimensions.
so i got the audiosource amp 50 instead and very satisfied.
http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AM...sr_1_8?ie=UTF8

i did try the cheap amps from Pyle but those crap out after 2 weeks. the AS amp50 still working fine after 2 years
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
I would also point out that you can get a rather inexpensive, high power amplifier in Class D these days. That has what made it possible to get these 7.1 1000+ W receivers.

It's hard to directly compare Class A/B and Class D power though. If a Class D amplifier is rated at 1000 watts, it can products 1000 watts of power. That's it. Class A/B has the ability to be very efficient in instantaneous bursts, which is generally all that transient peaks in movies or music require. So a 500W-rated RMS A/B amp can often provide effectively the same power as a 1000W-rated Class D Amp in practical applications.
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,237
2
0
I have had poor luck with several amps I bought in the past. My speakers drop down around or below 4ohms a lot, and it seems to fry amps pretty fast, due to heat, or it sends them into shutdown modes, just when watching movies. And when listening to loud music, I might as well just cross the speaker wires and let the amps short out, lol.

I have had a lot better luck with Harmon Kardon made receivers and amps, since they tend to account for this since their Infinity and JBL speakers tend to bottom out below 4ohms a lot.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
I have had poor luck with several amps I bought in the past. My speakers drop down around or below 4ohms a lot, and it seems to fry amps pretty fast, due to heat, or it sends them into shutdown modes, just when watching movies. And when listening to loud music, I might as well just cross the speaker wires and let the amps short out, lol.

I have had a lot better luck with Harmon Kardon made receivers and amps, since they tend to account for this since their Infinity and JBL speakers tend to bottom out below 4ohms a lot.

You must be talking about very old Harman Kardon products, I don't know if you've seen their recent product line...it's not much better than Sony's offerings amplification-wise. Which is to say, Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, and Denon provide superior amplification...
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,237
2
0
You must be talking about very old Harman Kardon products, I don't know if you've seen their recent product line...it's not much better than Sony's offerings amplification-wise. Which is to say, Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, and Denon provide superior amplification...

Yea, I guess I kind of am. They do still make a high current amp though.

http://www.harmankardon.com/estore/hk/us/products/HK-990/HK%20990_HK_US?skuId=HK%20990_HK_US&searchMode=regularProductOnly

And this is pretty affordable. And has preamp outputs. It's not high current, though. I think it uses the cheaper digital amps.

http://www.harmankardon.com/estore/...=AVR 3700_HK_US&searchMode=regularProductOnly

They do still make Mark Levinson and Lexicon amps. So there's that if you have a nice wad to throw down.

http://www.marklevinson.com/

http://www.lexicon.com/

And JBL makes pro amps still, again, if you have a nice wad to throw down.

http://jblpro.com/www/home

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Pages/Home.aspx

And they have cheap refurbs on their Ebay and home pages, with full warranties.

http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio

http://www.harmanaudio.com/
 
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SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,237
2
0
I actually bought one of these brand new for $199 at Fry's right after it came out, still sitting unopened in the box, LOL.

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/product_detail.asp?urlMaterialNumber=AVR%201700-Z&status=

I thought about retiring my old 7.1 high current AVR3600, and never did. I don't use the back 2 surround channels. It was bought as a refurb about 5 years ago, and works perfectly and my Infinity Interlude speakers didn't blow it or trip it, like the various amps I tried.

http://www.harmankardon.com/estore/hk/us/support/spdp.jsp?pid=AVR 3600

http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-...words=avr+3600
 
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monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
Take this opportunity to stop cobbling weird parts together. A PC specific 5.1 system like logitech Z506 is inexpensive and decent.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Harman/Kardon and Marantz are both super awesome about the accuracy of their stated power measurements under 5.1 and 7.1. Typically, they actually end up being under-rated (or: they advertise lower levels than their equipment can typically reach in most if not all situations).

At least with my speakers, I've never once been able to max out the H/K AVR247 I previously owned, or the Marantz NR1403 that I currently own. At least, never with good audio sources. Low quality, highly compressed audio might need more, but even with craptastic cable-sourced audio, I have never approached max, and both receivers claim a max of 50w per channel.

Take that for what you wish, but I spent about $350 on my Marantz receiver and have been beyond impressed.

The Marantz NR1403 does not abysmal hookup options compared to many receivers, and if that's a worry, either stepping up to higher Marantz options, or going with H/K, is a great option.

I know with some more money, that the Yamahas, Onkyos, Denons, and Pioneer Elites have received a lot of positive feedback, but I can't really comment much on those without ears on.

And if you want more of a dedicated amp-only setup, I truly cannot help you out there - never researched into that market segment.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
It's hard to directly compare Class A/B and Class D power though. If a Class D amplifier is rated at 1000 watts, it can products 1000 watts of power. That's it. Class A/B has the ability to be very efficient in instantaneous bursts, which is generally all that transient peaks in movies or music require. So a 500W-rated RMS A/B amp can often provide effectively the same power as a 1000W-rated Class D Amp in practical applications.

The point is though that Class D designs have made it much cheaper to get X W of continuous power compared to the more traditional A/B designs. This is why we are seeing these mega W multichannel receivers at low prices. If he wants a standalone amplifier, those are probably going to be mostly targeted at the higher end markets and videophiles. As such, he won't see as many Class D amplifiers and the increased prices are going to reflect this.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
To answer fuzzymath10, LoveMachine, s44's question, let me provide a little background, I do not have a proper HT set up yet, its just computer, hooked up to a 47inch TV, initially I was using TV speakers only. One thing led to another and I ended up moving everything to a small room meant to be a study but now is a gym/den. Now I have my gaming machine too in that room and it has a 7.1 redneck sound system hooked up to it - quote from my post on another thread -


I messed up the Logitech X-230 during the move and one of the speakers is not working properly so its time to replace them anyways and I though of getting a pair of bookshelf speaker and an Amp, that's where my quest for amp began and I was not prepared for the high price of good amps, I though since there are lot of decent AVRs for under 500, I can get amps for cheaper than that, use it for 2 speakers only for now and down the line maybe get a preamp and use the HDMI and go professional. Second though was maybe to get a AVR with multichannel analog input, use it for front speaker only for now and later buy good speakers and use though HDMI. For now for just 2 speakers I guess I can do with any AVR as all of them have 3.5mm or RCA input, but I was thinking of upgrading the speakers one set at a time as money becomes available, stay with PC soundcard till I get all 5 or 7 speakers and subwoofer upgraded

You really just have no clue what you're doing dude.....

Pick up an Onkyo Receiver for $350 off Newegg/Amazon during a deal (or just use any Onkyo Receiver you're running crappy bookshelf speakers for gaming not like you're actually running home theater speakers for a home theater experience).

The Receiver already has an amplifier in it and will tell you what mode you're running in (ie. you can pick to run in stereo, surround, all types of surround modes, you get room correction if you want it, and tons of other features).

My setup for my HTPC
4770k
HD7950
8GB of Ram
Asus 87-A Pro mobo
Ceton InfiniTV4 Tuner
Fractal Design Define R4 case

Equipment
Receiver

-Onkyo TX-NR709 Receiver
(This is the model with PreOuts for using External Amplifiers. You don't need a model this high up in the line you basically need a basic model. The first Receiver I used was an HT-RC360. It was quite cheap on sale. I'd look up the current equuivalent, and wait for a deal on SlickDeals.net They happen ALL the time)

Amplifier
Crown XLS1500 Amplifier
(Another thing you need to realize is that amplifiers really aren't that expensive. Home Theater Amplifiers are usually expensive just because of the nice casing and because no one really uses them. In fact, even most people on Home Theater forums do NOT use the amplifiers. Crown XLS series is recommended, Behringer Amplifiers (Inuke series is VERY cheap for the wattage it puts out), etc. Most of these amplifiers actually put out MUCH more power than you even need) Any of these amplifiers http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Power-Amplifiers-Live-Sound.gc?extup=100-200&ipp=25 should work fine and you can probably find cheaper online if you look around.

Polk Monitor 70 Series 2 Tower Speakers
B&W 602 S2 Booksehelf Speakers (with Center Channel)

Currently looking into getting a second Crown XLS1500 though but maybe overkill.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
126
It's not just nice casing, home theater receivers typically use Class A/B amplifiers, whereas Pro Amps are typically Class D or Class G. In addition most pro amps use fans instead of heatsinks because they are designed for outdoor venues where ambient sound is so high no one will notice the fan noise.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
To answer fuzzymath10, LoveMachine, s44's question, let me provide a little background, I do not have a proper HT set up yet, its just computer, hooked up to a 47inch TV, initially I was using TV speakers only. One thing led to another and I ended up moving everything to a small room meant to be a study but now is a gym/den. Now I have my gaming machine too in that room and it has a 7.1 redneck sound system hooked up to it - quote from my post on another thread -


I messed up the Logitech X-230 during the move and one of the speakers is not working properly so its time to replace them anyways and I though of getting a pair of bookshelf speaker and an Amp, that's where my quest for amp began and I was not prepared for the high price of good amps, I though since there are lot of decent AVRs for under 500, I can get amps for cheaper than that, use it for 2 speakers only for now and down the line maybe get a preamp and use the HDMI and go professional. Second though was maybe to get a AVR with multichannel analog input, use it for front speaker only for now and later buy good speakers and use though HDMI. For now for just 2 speakers I guess I can do with any AVR as all of them have 3.5mm or RCA input, but I was thinking of upgrading the speakers one set at a time as money becomes available, stay with PC soundcard till I get all 5 or 7 speakers and subwoofer upgraded

Sorry for double post but just want to ask, what's your price range? How much do you want to spend? What is your goal? (2.1 channel or full 7.1 channel).
Are you using this for your HDTV? (No matter how poverty your home theater system, it still is one so if you're using this for your TV vs yoru PC it makes a difference although small).
What are you hoping to get out of the system? (This is the most important. Do you want a movie theater experience where it's very clear+loud sound that is reproduced exactly like how the director intended? Or are you just trying to enjoy multichannel surround sound to enhance your gaming/movie experience and you listen at normal levels?)

As for the whole "Power output" I'm surprised this wasn't fully explained well at all and also why it wasn't explained that unless you're trying to reproduce a home theater experience (Which it doesn't seem like you are) that the whole debate is useless. You're not running Home Theater Speakers trying to hit 100 dB (as loud as a night club) or hit 120 dB(where you start to feel pain). Correct me if I'm wrong you're just trying to enjoy multichannel audio? 90% of the time your system won't use more than 10 watts of power.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm
There's a calculator on there that will explain it. I can see how much I'm sending to my speakers on my amplifier (or guess really based on the max power output). I rarely get close to using the 300 watts my amplifier is rated for (I think it actually achieves like 270 in testing though). That's when I'm actually using the speakers for trying to replicate a nightclub when I'm throwing a party. In normal listening conditions where you're casually watching TV, you won't use more than 10 watts.

As for how the rating on the receiver is wrong. The receiver usually is rated like this when you read the manual.
1 channel driven, 100 watts, 20-20khz (they use other ranges or just give a straight number testtone to say how much power it can drive). Then, they multiply that number out by 5-7. In reality, the receiver may only 200-300 watts with all channels driven. But there is NEVER a time when you will need 100+ watts to every speaker in the situation you're using the speakers for. Your surrounds don't really play enough frequency ranges to need that much power nor do they play loudly.

In short, when people complain about Receiver wattage, they are complaining about it in a sense that they want to drive large speakers to reference level (quite loud) volumes but wish their receiver would actually put out the rated power. Even then, you're only a pro amplifier away from getting 300+ watts at like $200 USD (spend a little more for a amplifier tha twill last you longer). But that's another discussion.

In short, you're worrying about the wrong things really. The only thing you need to do is get a Receiver and some cheap speakers, or get a prebuilt Home Theater in a Box set. That's really the price range/experience you're looking for. Getting an amplifier for each set of speakers you have is extremely ridiculous and just a waste of money. Especially for the quality of speakers your using.

It's not just nice casing, home theater receivers typically use Class A/B amplifiers, whereas Pro Amps are typically Class D or Class G. In addition most pro amps use fans instead of heatsinks because they are designed for outdoor venues where ambient sound is so high no one will notice the fan noise.

Well like my post says, we shouldn't even be talking about an amplifier OP should just power off of a receiver. He isn't running at any remote volume necessary to warrant the use of an amplifier. But not every Class D Amplifier runs loud. Only the lowest quality (inuke series for example from behringer) does. Mine is silent. My HTPC, amplifier, and receiver both are inaudible from my listening location. The only thing audible is my laptop actually.
 
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