Why are Republicans out to destroy Public Unions?

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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Interesting first post.

Very Anti-American.

Why are you here?

Is there are requirement that people here be "pro-American"?

Didn't notice that when I signed up. Also didn't notice any indication that you got to make that judgment call.

I think it's in pretty poor taste to flame a newcomer like that.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Ah yes, the usual dismissive tripe from Harvey. "Agree with me, or else."

Ah, yes. The usual un-informative, unintelligent claptrap from BoberFett. "Submit to right wingnut demagoguery and tyranny, or else."

As usual, you're a guy with nothing to say and far too many words to say it.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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What's the motivation? Why shouldn't public service be rewarded? Shouldn't labor be allowed to bargain?

I don't know about the Republicans but public unions are bad and dangerous for a few reasons.

1. They serve the public and often have zero competitors for what they do meaning they can literally hold the public hostage.

2. The entire idea of a union is to negotiate with the other side. They work for the public but they also ARE the public meaning they essentially negotiate with themselves which is just not a good idea.

3. There is political will and desire to cut deals with the unions that are mathematically impossible to fulfill but since both the union guy and the politician will be long gone by that time they do it anyways for short term personal gains.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Biggest reason is to reduce the funding of Democrats by unions, by weakening them.

That makes sense and is undoubtedly one of the reasons.

Second is to attack the wages of the middle class, increasing the share at the top.

Doesn't make much sense there skippy. We are a consumer society and we are talking about public not private jobs. The rich love when the Feds and States have to borrow money just to pay the bills (such as salaries), it results in artificially inflated GDP which they pocket most of.

Third is for the splash effect lowering wages for other workers, helping their donors the owners.

Again, makes no sense.

Somewhere after those is some idea that public workers just shouldn't have unions - for the reasons in the FDR quote they like to mention.

Which I have yet to see a decent argument against.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Ah, now here we see necked envy and the concomitant resentment it breeds. Why don't you go get what they have instead of resenting the fact the did what it takes to have what you want.

Because if we do that eventually the state goes broke and has to screw over a bunch of poor saps who were living on or counting on the pensions that the state will no longer pay because it is flat broke?

That is the problem when you are negotiating with yourself and by the time anyone figures out you negotiated a severely raw deal for both sides you will be long gone and forgotten about but until then you get to enjoy of the benefits and influence from the negotiations.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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I'm not saying that all employers and all unions are good or bad, honest or dishonest, anything else beneficial or destructive. The point is, there are many benefits to having a good, effective and honest system of collective employee representation.

But we are talking about the employer being the public in this case. It should not be that hard for public employees to get issues like that resolved and if it currently is I bet I could come up with a few page bill that would solve 90% of the issues.

Sure... until you get ethical and moral turds like Scott Walker and Republican turd legislators in Wisconsin who unilaterally strip workers of their their rights, their benefits and their jobs by legislative fiat.

I don't know who you are, but your post is extremely uninformed and short sighted.

But they can do that with or without the unions being in place because they are passing actual laws that the union must abide by. The union sure didn't help in that case.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
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Read about the Davis Bacon act. Understand what it does. Understand the republican spin and the democratic spin. There are several other pieces to the puzzle, but this is a big one.

Read Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis for a few months and you will osmose a fairly decent understanding of what is so wrong with public unions.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
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it's always seemed strange to me that there's no real drawback to public unions.

in a union in a private company, there's the risk of demanding too much and pulling your company under as it struggles to pay pensions and health care and salaries... in a public union, you get to just raise taxes on everyone. it's not as if a town is going to shutdown its school systems and force all the residents to pay for their own private schools instead.

That's ludicrous. Governments can't just raise taxes to pay workers more, because that would be politically impossible.

It's also ridiculous to say public unions negotiate with themselves because "they are the public". That's like saying companies bidding on government contracts are bidding for their own work. The taxpayers hire government workers to do a job, and will pay them as little as possible, just like any employer. That's why public workers need collective bargaining just like private sector ones.

BTW in our union, "essential" employees can't legally strike, so the union has very little bargaining power.

Neither do most public unions apparently, judging by how low government jobs pay. If they were actually powerful, government workers would be paid better than private sector. As it is, there are lots of government jobs that don't even pay a living wage.
 

The_AC

Member
May 29, 2012
28
0
0
That's a crock! A business hires employees because their work product earns the company more than they're being payed. However, the business is in control of the financial state of the company, including what they pay their employees.

A single employee may have a legitimate claim that he is being underpayed relative to the value of his labor, but an unscrupulous employer may choose to terminate an employee who requests a raise, rather than raising his pay, even if the request is reasonable, affordable and equitable, especially in times of high unemployment, and that single employee may not have much leverage unless he has specific, unique critical skills.

Under such conditions, unions can provide employees with greater bargaining leverage. Unions also provide an effective way to communicate with management about other serious issues such as safety in the workplace and can provide good hands on feedback to improve productivity, employee morale and more that can save money for the company.

I'm not saying that all employers and all unions are good or bad, honest or dishonest, anything else beneficial or destructive. The point is, there are many benefits to having a good, effective and honest system of collective employee representation.
[snip]
Sure... until you get ethical and moral turds like Scott Walker and Republican turd legislators in Wisconsin who unilaterally strip workers of their their rights, their benefits and their jobs by legislative fiat.

I don't know who you are, but your post is extremely uninformed and short sighted.
Yes, I suppose that is a good 4-paragraph extension of what I wrote (?).

Also, all that happened in Wisconsin was politicians saying "hmm, I could give teachers pay raises and raise taxes now, or raise their retirement pay and future politicians will have to raise taxes 20 years from now," and the politicians went with the second option. Scott Walker decided that that wasn't fair to today's 3-year-olds, and made them quit doing it. The media REALLY didn't report this that well.

Interesting first post.

Very Anti-American.

Why are you here?

I'm not sure why you'd react that way. After expenses, an owner of a single restaurant might make an average of $200/day. If one of his waiters normally earns $50/day, and randomly decided to work for free, then the restaurant owner would find himself earning an average of $250/day after expenses.

For a big company, the pay would probably trickle to the CEO, or shareholders, or whatever, but the basic point is still there.

I figured that what I said would be interpreted in a pro-American or pro-free market way. Did you read the second half of my paragraph where I said that workers can do things to give their bosses incentives to pay them more?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_equilibrium
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
lawmakers belong to unions?

that never occurred to me... I've never heard of a Governor's Union.

First off you never want to assume something isn't true because you don't already know it. That would be an unconscious bias that would interfere in the gathering of new informantion. A piece of just such information might be that folk sometimes use analogies to demonstrate ideas, such as comparing the Union of come up through the ranks Republicans elected to cushy government jobs where they vote for their own salary and benefits, with public sector workers forming unions to negotiate with for thier wages even if one side, strictly speaking, is a clique of parasites rather than a union. Get it? Clique of parasites, union, same thing, right?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
The public does not set public union wages. A representative of the public does. And we all know how well those representatives represent the wishes of the public. Just look at how well Democrats feel they were represented by Bush and the Republicans...

A point has been raised by Darwin that neither public unions nor government officials negotiate with the proper motivations due to a commonality of short term gains from both sides. This strikes me right now as a good argument. No partisanship, it seems to me is required to take that position.

Now I don't think the argument means there should be no public unions just yet because I haven't thought of any other way this might be addressed. I see that in this time of economic crisis that union benefits negotiated in better times have put a strain of government resources. I am looking for a way to respond to that other than what I see as extreme from the right. But exploration on a forum is no easy task. We need idea boards and charts and other tools to list and compare ideas seems to me.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
Sorry, that was a poorly formed sentence. I meant: "I'm too busy (paying taxes to give them what they have)."

Look, you started a thread, and I gave you a pretty good explanation of the arguments against public unions. Rather than trying to suggest that I'm envious of public sector workers (which is beyond silly), you could try to address the points I made.

M: Thanks for the clarification.

CK: A union in a private company can make a fair argument that it is an organization that prevents the exploitation of the “little guy” by the power of the corporation. That argument falls flat in the public sector, because the employer here is us — we are paying the salaries and benefits with our taxes. There’s no profit motive.

M: There has to be a profit motive for market economics to work, no? The folk who run the government are obliged to run it efficiently and workers work for a profit too. They have to get some fair compensation. I think these two forces are supposed to balance themselves optimally, no?

CK: We have no direct control over the bargaining process. A company CEO knows that if he does a lousy job of negotiating, he’ll get fired. That doesn't’t happen in the private(Think you mean Public Moonbeam) sector; the president or governor or other leader knows there will be no consequences to caving in on union demands.

M: I think Darwin makes a case that is more to the point. We do have control, broadly and slowly speaking. We can vote out folk and replace them. We just may not be able to do it before they have developed sufficient momentum that even with breaks applied, we won't go over the cliff.

CK: Union negotiations in the private sector have an automatic balancing factor: if the union goes too far, the company becomes uncompetitive and goes out of business, and the union members are all out jobs. In the public sector this can’t happen — all that happens is that the taxpayers get soaked.

M: Governments other than the federal can go our of business. Some are, I believe.

CK: There is a major conflict of interest. Imagine a situation where the CEO of a company got his job based on the votes of his employees — how effective a negotiator would he be? Yet that is exactly the situation with public service unions. There is a built-in incentive to pander to the union for votes.

M: Most union employees can't afford to live where I do. They do not vote in my local elections. Oddly, they get rather high pay because I am in a wealthy and Democratic area. We don't have envy to any great degree. You know how it is when you are strong, you have broad shoulders that can carry other people.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
Darwin333: I don't know about the Republicans but public unions are bad and dangerous for a few reasons.

M: You are about to list some reasons, but reasons for what, problems with public unions or dangers to be eliminated? Where do you want to go with your reasons?

D : 1. They serve the public and often have zero competitors for what they do meaning they can literally hold the public hostage.

M: Would it be practical to employ, say three different city entities for every service the city supplies. There are efficiencies of scale that offset monopoly, no? Can public unions legally strike? What do you want to do about this, maybe contract the work out to potential incompetents? Will voters go along?

D : 2. The entire idea of a union is to negotiate with the other side. They work for the public but they also ARE the public meaning they essentially negotiate with themselves which is just not a good idea.

M: I addressed this above. This can't be totally right because essentially public sector unions would pay themselves for a zero sum gain.

D : 3. There is political will and desire to cut deals with the unions that are mathematically impossible to fulfill but since both the union guy and the politician will be long gone by that time they do it anyways for short term personal gains.

M: Would you agree there was perhaps such a will and now the will seems to be to destroy the unions? There are different and competing wills out there regarding who is going to eat the pie. What I want to know is whether the Republican approach makes sense and is the proper answer. I don't think it is.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
But we are talking about the employer being the public in this case. It should not be that hard for public employees to get issues like that resolved and if it currently is I bet I could come up with a few page bill that would solve 90% of the issues.

Such as? What I'm looking to hear............
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
That's ludicrous. Governments can't just raise taxes to pay workers more, because that would be politically impossible.

It's also ridiculous to say public unions negotiate with themselves because "they are the public". That's like saying companies bidding on government contracts are bidding for their own work. The taxpayers hire government workers to do a job, and will pay them as little as possible, just like any employer. That's why public workers need collective bargaining just like private sector ones.

BTW in our union, "essential" employees can't legally strike, so the union has very little bargaining power.

Neither do most public unions apparently, judging by how low government jobs pay. If they were actually powerful, government workers would be paid better than private sector. As it is, there are lots of government jobs that don't even pay a living wage.

I see this as true.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Unions may have a role in the private sector but in the public sector they are nothing more then entities that represent a conflict of interest between the tax payer (who is seeking the most bang buck in terms of their tax dollars), politicians (who seek to gain re-election often by appeasement) and public union employes (who are seeking the highest benefit and compensation for their labor).

As another poster mentioned public unions are self-interest entities in terms their actual roles and who/how they seek to represent this role (hint: they do not represent the inter tax payer or even elected politicians) so often this self-interest comes at the cost and the expense to the tax payer. This is especially true when discrepancies arise around wage and benefit compensation vs increased taxes on the tax payer and future economic liabilities for the state in addition to the actual economic impact these conflict of interest may have on the actual overall economy as whole.

Last, public unions along with the very nature of a government employee position represents in and of itself a de facto monopolized position in the labor force which usually faces very little, to no competition for that position itself baring any major incidents which would bring public scrutiny.

So the employer (government) and the employee (public worker) are in roles which are found to be hard pressed to acknowledge any attempts to promote overall competition and efficiency to ensure the tax payers dollars which are spent wisely. Even if a agency of government is seen to be lacking in the quality of service it provides to the public solved this dilemma is often resolved by politicians (and tax payers at the voting booth) by throwing more money at a problem rather then seeking to stripping down the layers of inefficiency by employing cost cutting measures, etc in order to increase productivity and efficiency.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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That makes sense and is undoubtedly one of the reasons.

Doesn't make much sense there skippy. We are a consumer society and we are talking about public not private jobs. The rich love when the Feds and States have to borrow money just to pay the bills (such as salaries), it results in artificially inflated GDP which they pocket most of.

Don't call me "skippy". It's a rude affectation. It makes a ton of sense. Dragging down public unions' wages has a lowering effect on private unions and non-unionized as well.

You don't see huge mismatches between the same position for the same role in any of those three very much; they can use each other to justify higher or lower wages.

This works even up to CEO pay, where 'other CEO's make a lot' is used to set pay. HR departments certainly use 'salary surveys of comparable workers' in setting salaries.

And the less the middle class has, the more the wealthy have, since money is really little more than a share of pie measurement; it is a zero sum game at any point in time.

Again, makes no sense.

Yes, it does, it's related to the one above - the people paying salaries donate to Republicans far more and like lower labor costs.



Which I have yet to see a decent argument against.

There is a major problem with wealth inequality, and I'm happy to use something not ideologically perfect that's effective in helping get the right thing done.

You don't lose sleep at night (or at least post nearly as loudly about it) when it comes to things not ideologically perfect benefiting the rich, who have benefited way too much.

It's an issue of practical need. We can revisit it when inequality is reduced.

You're like a guy standing in front of a closed store after a natural disaster saying to the victims freezing, "don't you even think of taking those blankets off the shelf."
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Unions may have a role in the private sector but in the public sector they are nothing more then entities that represent a conflict of interest between the tax payer (who is seeking the most bang buck in terms of their tax dollars), politicians (who seek to gain re-election often by appeasement) and public union employes (who are seeking the highest benefit and compensation for their labor).

As another poster mentioned public unions are self-interest entities in terms their actual roles and who/how they seek to represent this role (hint: they do not represent the inter tax payer or even elected politicians) so often this self-interest comes at the cost and the expense to the tax payer. This is especially true when discrepancies arise around wage and benefit compensation vs increased taxes on the tax payer and future economic liabilities for the state in addition to the actual economic impact these conflict of interest may have on the actual overall economy as whole.

Last, public unions along with the very nature of a government employee position represents in and of itself a de facto monopolized position in the labor force which usually faces very little, to no competition for that position itself baring any major incidents which would bring public scrutiny.

So the employer (government) and the employee (public worker) are in roles which are found to be hard pressed to acknowledge any attempts to promote overall competition and efficiency to ensure the tax payers dollars which are spent wisely. Even if a agency of government is seen to be lacking in the quality of service it provides to the public solved this dilemma is often resolved by politicians (and tax payers at the voting booth) by throwing more money at a problem rather then seeking to stripping down the layers of inefficiency by employing cost cutting measures, etc in order to increase productivity and efficiency.

This is a constant right-wing myth.

Politicians DO have an interest in minimizing costs, in lower wages.

I hate to tell you, but a hell of a lot of management in private companies are out to spend more on wages for their employess - which helps them a lot, from increasing morale and loyalty to recuirting the better people away from the competition - and screw the shareholders, and there's a lot of 'conflict of interest' between management and shareholders. Tell me how often shareholders actually replace boards who actually replace senior management who actually replace lower management over these conflicts? Never.

And the same situation exists with politicians and their bosses, the voters. Voters like to pay lower taxes, and politicians benefit in their elections by lower taxes. There might be a lot MORE pressure on the politicians over this than there is over private management - but the politicians at least face a lot.

Now, on top of that 'legitimate' pressure - every dollar spent on excessive worker wages in government is also a dollar the politicians can't spend on a pet political project.

And politicians LOVE to have more money for their pet politician projects - creating a second pressure against excessive governmet wages.

In fact, it seems to me that the politicians are much more often the 'enemy of the workers' they are setting the pay for than the private sector.

If the politicians freeze or lower worker wages in some way, there's a great headline for them to campaign on, that voters LOVE them for. They're over-incented to cut, really.

And in fact, IN GENERAL - with too many exceptions, just as in private - government union wages aren't 'outrageous' by any means - they're often kind of badly paid.

So this is a myth Republicans run on for one reason only - to exploit the issue - and who cares if it breaks government, that only hurts the people - to get votes for corrupt policy.

Save234
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Also, all that happened in Wisconsin was politicians saying "hmm, I could give teachers pay raises and raise taxes now, or raise their retirement pay and future politicians will have to raise taxes 20 years from now," and the politicians went with the second option. Scott Walker decided that that wasn't fair to today's 3-year-olds, and made them quit doing it. The media REALLY didn't report this that well.

Oh, so Walker decided to go with "give teachers pay raises and raise taxes now"?
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
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I think public unions should be outright abolished because they're a disgrace to the taxpayer. Private unions should be left up to the States. If I had a job, I doubt I'd give part of my paycheck to a union, assuming I had the choice. The reason is because a lot of that money could go to political campaigns or useless strikes like that Bob King guy was planning.

Unionism is probably neutral to the worker and minimum wage laws are terrible for the people.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
This is a constant right-wing myth.

Nonsense on your part.

Politicians DO have an interest in minimizing costs, in lower wages.

Only to the extent that it suits their political agenda and favors the fickle nature of the electorate. The electorate can have their opinion changed the moment a rival political opponent trouts out the poor **insert stereotype here** children, elderly, etc to paint a rival candidate in a negative light and thus effectively oppose any cuts and cost cutting measures by the force of public opinion.

Furthermore a rival candidate could also point to said rival's support of other government entities and thus negate the argument for cuts by painting the rival as hypocritical, e.g. GOP on medicare, military spending and Dems on social welfare spending, Obama-care, overly redundant environmental agencies, etc and thus stifle any conversation on economic necessity of large cost cutting measures and/or roll back of government growth.

I hate to tell you, but a hell of a lot of management in private companies are out to spend more on wages for their employess - which helps them a lot, from increasing morale and loyalty to recuirting the better people away from the competition - and screw the shareholders, and there's a lot of 'conflict of interest' between management and shareholders. Tell me how often shareholders actually replace boards who actually replace senior management who actually replace lower management over these conflicts? Never.

This opinion totally ignores reality that the money spent on wages and benefits by a private entity is always measured against potential prospect of risk vs rewards. Private firms which ignore the reality of costs and the outcomes of risk vs reward will eventually face a situation in which they are no longer in business due to reckless long term behavior. Over compensation is always felt by private firms via lack of efficiency on how and where they spend their money and thus very few firms would spend money on employees who are not worth their weight in the profit they generate their firm.

Government entities however do not actually face these concerns because they have at their disposal the ability to lobbying for increased spending, deficit spending, a rise in taxes, etc and can operate for many years effectively on what many private firms would consider a net loss on the goods and services they provide, e.g US Postal service, Amtrack, etc.

And the same situation exists with politicians and their bosses, the voters. Voters like to pay lower taxes, and politicians benefit in their elections by lower taxes. There might be a lot MORE pressure on the politicians over this than there is over private management - but the politicians at least face a lot.

Politicians face the pressure to appease their voter base however I stated before (and as you are making the case here for me) public unions almost always are at odds with such pressures because their goal is to seek the greatest compensation for their members. In addition a politician who parleys his support of public unions via votes can very easily overcome any negative backlash so long as the pendulum of support is weighted with enough votes to swing in his/her direction via any means of political appeals they may employ when stating their case and rallying the public sector unions to oppose any and all cost cutting measures.

Now, on top of that 'legitimate' pressure - every dollar spent on excessive worker wages in government is also a dollar the politicians can't spend on a pet political project.

Only to the extent that electorate is watching and that they are prevented from raising taxes, deficits spending, etc but that requires again an electorate that is large enough in numbers to suppress the any support in terms of votes public union employees are able to garner for their own shared cause.

And politicians LOVE to have more money for their pet politician projects - creating a second pressure against excessive government wages.

In fact, it seems to me that the politicians are much more often the 'enemy of the workers' they are setting the pay for than the private sector.

It is interesting how you state one position here and then backpedal to state the reverse to support your reasoning.

A politician who supports "pet projects" are politicians who enjoy spending tax payer dollars at the expense of the tax payer. In addition these "pet projects" do not exist in a vacuum and are in fact often tied to government by the necessity to pass regulations, mandates, decrees, etc all of which increase the bureaucracy and help to sustain the power base and influence of public unions and their members who only grow in legion with the added increase and size of government spending.

If the politicians freeze or lower worker wages in some way, there's a great headline for them to campaign on, that voters LOVE them for. They're over-incented to cut, really.


Again this point is totally depending on specific situations where the electorate overwhelming supports the cuts. However often any mention of spending cuts or cost cutting measures almost certainly come at odds with public unions who wield a great amount of influence the political process so that they can change the winds of political opinion. (e.g. CA's governor race, Meg Whitman vs Jerry Brown along with how public unions distracted and smeared her during the election cycle.)


And in fact, IN GENERAL - with too many exceptions, just as in private - government union wages aren't 'outrageous' by any means - they're often kind of badly paid.

There are many examples within government (CA for example) where wages and benefits have far outstripped the private sector.

So this is a myth Republicans run on for one reason only - to exploit the issue - and who cares if it breaks government, that only hurts the people - to get votes for corrupt policy.

Save234

And one could also point out how your blind partisanship has muddled your mind and prevented you from actually having any sort of unbiased and detached view on the matter at hand.
 
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