Why are there big cats but no big dogs?

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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,733
564
126
Lions are kind of an outlier among cats in how they live together...but even they do solitary hunting at least sometimes.

Wolves are always a pack so they take down larger prey by a group effort. It would probably make more sense from a calorie usage point of view to have more individuals in a pack rather than fewer larger ones. So I'm not sure how useful massive size would be for the niche they fill. Being large is certainly handy, but its also a liability as you need more food to maintain yourself.

I thought the mega fauna mammals were a result of the colder climate. Larger animals have a better suffice area to lose heat from in relation to mass.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Not really. Mammalian bone physiology explains much of why there are no sauropod-sized mammals. Essentially, the bigger dinosaurs had air sacs in their skeletons much like modern birds, so their bones could take up more volume while maintaining a certain mass (they're less dense). No mammal has evolved a similar solution.


There is also speculation that dinosaurs simply had a more efficient metabolism, but whatever the case modern birds do not get that large and mammals haven't been around nearly as long leaving the exact reasons up for debate.
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,301
0
0
Lions are very large and they hunt in packs.

actually they don't.. yes they live in prides but the females are still solitary hunters for the Pride.
They do not have the pack mentality for hunting as wolves or other pack hunters do.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
I thought the mega fauna mammals were a result of the colder climate. Larger animals have a better suffice area to lose heat from in relation to mass.


That's one theory. It doesn't explain why animals in the arctic aren't still that large or why the huge dinosaurs thrived in tropical climates, while smaller ones survived in the antarctic. Other theories suggest that they could have died out for a number of reasons and simply have yet to make a comeback.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
actually they don't.. yes they live in prides but the females are still solitary hunters for the Pride.
They do not have the pack mentality for hunting as wolves or other pack hunters do.
Yes they do. They hunt mainly at night and in packs. They sleep during the day. It's usually either an all female affair or male and females where the females start the attack and the male gives the crucial bite to the neck, crushing it.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
13
81
actually they don't.. yes they live in prides but the females are still solitary hunters for the Pride.
They do not have the pack mentality for hunting as wolves or other pack hunters do.

hmm...i've watched plenty of nature shows where they show a whole bunch of lions taking down a gazelle at the same time. they don't NEED to hunt in packs but they certainly do.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
91
hmm...i've watched plenty of nature shows where they show a whole bunch of lions taking down a gazelle at the same time. they don't NEED to hunt in packs but they certainly do.

Other factors, like hunting huge herd animals on open plains, probably necessitate pride hunting for lions, or certainly make it more successful. Most other big cats generally live in some kind of environment that offers better ambush/attack opportunities with obstacles in the escape path (jungles, forests, mountains).
 

konakid7

Member
Sep 16, 2010
118
0
0
gohapuna.com
That's one theory. It doesn't explain why animals in the arctic aren't still that large or why the huge dinosaurs thrived in tropical climates, while smaller ones survived in the antarctic. Other theories suggest that they could have died out for a number of reasons and simply have yet to make a comeback.

In "Guns, Germs, and Steel" Jared Diamond theorizes that when earlier humans developed sufficient hunting techniques they were able take down mega fauna fairly easily, and quickly decimated the populations. The animals moved to slowly and couldn't adapt quick enough, and were simply killed off by humans a few tens of thousands of years ago. That might be why the many species of large land animals, from Australia to North America, died out fairly recently.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,821
29,582
146
Lions are very large and they hunt in packs.

no. not at all like dogs. They simply don't have the smarts.

Big cats stalk and depend on surprise. They have neither the stamina nor ability to strategize that dogs have. Even the Cheetah, which can go for a spell, will give up quickly if it loses the surprise advantage.

male lions are also lazy sonsabitches. they don't hunt for shit. they let the ladies do all the work.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,821
29,582
146
A quick Google search says Epicyon Haydeni was the largest canine that ever lived and was larger then a modern lion, so they definitely can get bigger, but during the time period this was still smaller then the largest cats. Exactly why modern animals are smaller then prehistoric ones is unknown. For that matter, exactly why mammals never got as large as dinosaurs is unknown.

One possible answer is that for canines to be as large as cats they would have to become cats. For an insect to become larger it would require lungs, which in turn would require red blood cells, etc. until it evolved into an animal. Similarly, for a canine to compete with large cats it may be necessary for it adopt more of their physiology.

For example, many of the larger predators like lions and bears are older species that have simpler physiologies then canines and are more resistant to inbreeding. If food becomes scarce and their population declines being able to avoid inbreeding can then be a huge advantage that can mean the difference between survival and extinction. Likewise, reptiles like crocodilians have yet again simpler physiologies and the largest one ever was bigger then T Rex.

climate plays a huge role. The very warm, CO2 rich climate of the jurrassic was conducive to massive reptiles and massive spiders. I believe modern spiders are essentially no different--were we in the same climate, they would be growing up to near human size.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
There's at least 1 BIG DOG



EDIT---LOL F Me without reading the thread or even seeing the pic, I see that I AM BEATEN!
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
All you numbnuts are ignoring the obvious explanation: God made them that way. If God says so, then so it must be.
 
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Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,665
0
71
climate plays a huge role. The very warm, CO2 rich climate of the jurrassic was conducive to massive reptiles and massive spiders. I believe modern spiders are essentially no different--were we in the same climate, they would be growing up to near human size.

It was more an O2 rich atmosphere than CO2 rich atmosphere, and that is more relevant to invertebrates that do not have circulatory systems than vertebrates that have lungs, hearts, etc. Essentially, insect size is limited by how far molecular O2 can diffuse into tissues from the exterior environment, whereas this is not the case for an animal that can transfer O2 via hemoglobin or whatnot throughout its body.

In "Guns, Germs, and Steel" Jared Diamond theorizes that when earlier humans developed sufficient hunting techniques they were able take down mega fauna fairly easily, and quickly decimated the populations. The animals moved to slowly and couldn't adapt quick enough, and were simply killed off by humans a few tens of thousands of years ago. That might be why the many species of large land animals, from Australia to North America, died out fairly recently.

Diamond is referring to Paul Martin's Pleistocene Overkill Hypothesis. It has good evidence to support it, but is not without its flaws/holes.

There is also speculation that dinosaurs simply had a more efficient metabolism, but whatever the case modern birds do not get that large and mammals haven't been around nearly as long leaving the exact reasons up for debate.

Yep. I've researched bird mitochondrial physiology in comparison to bat mitochondrial physiology and birds have more efficient metabolisms at least in the context of mitochondria than most mammals (bats are exceptionally efficient, like birds). Whether birds evolved this after the deaths of their dinosaur ancestors or inherited it from them, I don't think anyone knows for sure.

I know this is your area, so I'll ask you instead of googling - isn't there a general trend of predators/prey to both get larger over time? If that's true, given enough time and a large enough populations, might we hypothetically expect mammals to find this or maybe some other solution, and then reach dino-like sizes on land?

Yes, there is a well-recognized phenomenon in evolution called 'phyletic size increase' or Cope's rule. It's by no means a biological law, but it happens often. There's lots of research into why animal size increases on average over millions of years. One of the leading general ideas is that larger animals face lessened predation pressure. Interestingly, humans are a great example of phyletic size increase - our earliest ancestors were barely 4' tall on average.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
Yes, there is a well-recognized phenomenon in evolution called 'phyletic size increase' or Cope's rule. It's by no means a biological law, but it happens often. There's lots of research into why animal size increases on average over millions of years. One of the leading general ideas is that larger animals face lessened predation pressure. Interestingly, humans are a great example of phyletic size increase - our earliest ancestors were barely 4' tall on average.
I knew I'd heard that somewhere. The exceptions are always the most interesting cases... IIRC, the velociraptors got smaller over time, but their brains got bigger, at least in proportion. Hypothesis being they traded size for intelligence and pack hunting.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Obviously you didnt grow up in Minnesota.
Timberwolves can get HUGE if you leave them alone for a while.
Like mother fucking shetland ponies.
 
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