Why Atom sucks

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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
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I highly value and respect the reverse engineering Agner does but sometimes his conclusions about performance implications seem a little off to me. For instance he thinks HT often offers little benefit or even slowdown in Atom, when in the real world that never seems to be the case. He's also said weird things about how programs would often hit Bulldozer's restriction about not being able to access two cache banks in the same cycle if they're 256 bytes apart, seems to me that'd almost never be a problem..

I also don't think the 8-bytes/cycle fetch is particularly unbalanced for the rest of the processor, especially when you consider the most important Atoms are x86 only (no REX prefix) and don't have SSE4+, much less AVX. One read or write per cycle is par for the course for this complexity/power consumption class - if you move up to read + write like Bobcat and Cortex-A15 you pay for it. It's nice to have though.

I actually think Atom isn't that bad, not as bad as I originally thought anyway. But what I do think is it needs x86-64, preferably even "x32", since 8 registers really holds it back. Try coding some ASM optimized for it sometime, I think you'll see what I mean. Some other ISA features hurt more for a narrow in-order processor, like having to deal with more moves, but the full read-modify-write pipeline is nice. Agner is right though, software has to be well optimized specifically for Atom. I wonder how much that is the case for software currently executed..

As for all the stuff about how it's a 5 year old core with no changes, Saltwell at least brought about some changes (outside of being ported to 32nm of course). What we don't really know is how much Intel has worked at changes that could reduce power consumption but not necessarily be visible as functional differences. Given the huge advancements they've made here I wouldn't be so sure that it was down to the process improvement alone.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
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Personally I have used an ATOM 330 (Dual Core + HT) even with Vista 64 bit and the CPU was fine for browsing, Office etc, same applies for the new D2700. The CPU part is ok, but every ATOM i have used they seriously luck in iGPU performance. And it seams that 22nm ATOM will have the same handicap.
 

podspi

Golden Member
Jan 11, 2011
1,982
102
106
How many people in this thread have actually used a modern Atom system?

Compared to a 'normal' CPU, yes Atom is terrible. Compared to just about any other super-mobile CPU it's pretty great (A15 notwithstanding). Does the A9 suck? Does A15 suck? No. Having moved from A9-class tablets to a modern Atom tablet, it feels like a breathe of fresh air. Much, much better.

The original Atom platform was terrible (since we got low-performance and battery life), and Atom's iGPU is pretty shameful in this era of retina-displays, etc. But the CPU itself is surprisingly good for such an old design.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,176
5,717
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I think the lousy GPU is part of Intel's strategy to keep power usage competitive. It's probably a good thing the Atom tablets all have lowres screens as I know people have complained about GPU performance in the Nexus 10, and the Mali is much faster than the Atom's GPU.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,693
136
Personally I have used an ATOM 330 (Dual Core + HT) even with Vista 64 bit and the CPU was fine for browsing, Office etc, same applies for the new D2700. The CPU part is ok, but every ATOM i have used they seriously luck in iGPU performance. And it seams that 22nm ATOM will have the same handicap.

What OS and GPU are you using?. I did not think there was an official GMA3600 series driver for x64 yet (perhaps ever...).
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
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Personally I have used an ATOM 330 (Dual Core + HT) even with Vista 64 bit and the CPU was fine for browsing, Office etc, same applies for the new D2700. The CPU part is ok, but every ATOM i have used they seriously luck in iGPU performance. And it seams that 22nm ATOM will have the same handicap.

The 22nm Atom will have >3x the GPU performance of the current Atom, thanks to the use of Gen7 GPU, over low end PowerVR stuff.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
The 22nm Atom will have >3x the GPU performance of the current Atom, thanks to the use of Gen7 GPU, over low end PowerVR stuff.

It will still be far inferior against AMDs Kabini and NVIDIAs Tegra 4 iGPUs.
 

pablo87

Senior member
Nov 5, 2012
374
0
0
Intel's profit model is all about ASP because every CPU is almost pure profit. 60%+ margins include depreciation as part of COGS when in reality these are sunk costs; real gross margins are in the 80's.

Sure Atom's are smaller but it still doesn't compensate for the much lower ASP (those $40 Atom ASP's are not to be believed; at the height of the Atom euphoria, the mb/atom bundle was like $50...). Somebody at Intel figured this out and Atom in PC's was put out to pasture so smoothly.

It's telling that x86 Chromebook was re-launched with Acer using Celerons and not Atom.

intel clearly re-positioned Atom for smartphones and tablets as cannibalization there is less or not so obvious, but it took them a while to figure this out thus the delay and lack of continuous improvement. The same brand for 2 different totally markets. Clear as mud? yes but when the water is clear, you can't catch any fish.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
Compared to a 'normal' CPU, yes Atom is terrible. Compared to just about any other super-mobile CPU it's pretty great (A15 notwithstanding). Does the A9 suck? Does A15 suck? No. Having moved from A9-class tablets to a modern Atom tablet, it feels like a breathe of fresh air. Much, much better.

The original Atom platform was terrible (since we got low-performance and battery life), and Atom's iGPU is pretty shameful in this era of retina-displays, etc. But the CPU itself is surprisingly good for such an old design.

So i guess you bought a tablet with a 45nm Atom SoC? :hmm:
 

Concillian

Diamond Member
May 26, 2004
3,751
8
81
I hope the 22nm ATOM kicks ass, I'd really like something like the Acer W510 w/docked KB. Actually the W510 is probably more than adequate for my current needs, but I can't see myself buying one when in 9 months I should be able to get something 2-3x faster at the same price and power consumption that should suit future needs longer.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
There is no A9 SoC on 28/32nm. It makes no sense to compare Clover Trail to OMAP 4 or Tegra or Snapdragon 3.
 

podspi

Golden Member
Jan 11, 2011
1,982
102
106
There is no A9 SoC on 28/32nm. It makes no sense to compare Clover Trail to OMAP 4 or Tegra or Snapdragon 3.

Sure it does. These are products that are out on the marketplace now, and imho Atom is pretty competitive. It being fabbed on a superior process might help explain that fact, but does not negate it.

While I agree A15 is looking pretty good, I consider x86 compatibility to be a pretty big selling point, and so just because Atom does not have the best perf/watt does not make it a bad product, especially when there are other products on the market with worse perf/watt and performance overall.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
As an aside on Atom graphics performance, Vizio have just announced a Windows 8 tablet with a 1080p screen- using Hondo. http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/6/3842150/vizio-windows-8-tablet-with-1080p-screen-amd-internals I'm very interested in seeing how that compares to Clover Trail tablets for performance.

I said it in the other thread, but I expect the CPU performance is going to be considerably worse, AMD does not have a 1.8x IPC advantage over Saltwell. GPU performance will look much better, so the question will be how much games end up CPU limited.. and how much it'll be worth it playing older PC games on a tablet.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
There is no A9 SoC on 28/32nm. It makes no sense to compare Clover Trail to OMAP 4 or Tegra or Snapdragon 3.

Sure there are:

Exynos 4212: Samsung 32nm
Exynos 4412: Samsung 32nm
Apple A5r2: Samsung 32nm
Rockchip RK3188: Global Foundries 28nm

You can buy Exynos 4412 in cheap dev boards from Hard Kernel.

I expect there'll be at least someone else making a 32nm or 28nm Cortex-A9 SoC once the Chinese and Taiwanese fabs offer it.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
There are 28nm GloFo chips out on the market now?

I am surprised to hear of this only because I haven't seen any sort of 28nm GloFo analysis at Chipworks (which they regularly blog about as soon as they get samples in hand).

When did the Rockchip come to market?

To be honest, while sources say it was "released" I don't know if it's actually available or not. Guess we'll know for sure when the first device using it arrives. These Chinese chips have a way of sneaking up on you, for instance the new Allwinner chip with quad A7 and SGX544MP2 showed up in real devices pretty much as soon as it was announced. Same thing with recent MediaTek SoCs, showing up in available produces a couple weeks after announce. Speaking of which, MT6589 is on 28nm too (no idea whose, probably TSMC??), but with quad core Cortex-A7 (and SGX544MP1).
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
As an aside on Atom graphics performance, Vizio have just announced a Windows 8 tablet with a 1080p screen- using Hondo. http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/6/3842150/vizio-windows-8-tablet-with-1080p-screen-amd-internals I'm very interested in seeing how that compares to Clover Trail tablets for performance.

Apparently it's just a super power optimised C-50, so there should in theory somewhere be performance benchmarks available for it, since C-50 products have been around for ages.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,231
1,605
136
Latest (only?) Atom SoC is on 32nm. I did have an original Atom netbook though and that thing was a total dog, ugh.

which most certainly was due to the crappy hdds those netbooks shipped with and not atom itself.
 
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