He's an example of military "can do".Jus heard Gen. Patreus on the news. He was trying to argue that the Afghan troops didn't really abandon us but were disheartened because we said we were leaving. He further argued that our position was sustainable since there weren't any deaths in the last 18 months. Hmmm... I read a post from someone who said be weary of anyone making the argument there haven't been any deaths recently, because we had a cease fire with the Taliban and anyone in the know should know that. Our Military leaders can't be trusted.
It is two issues though. People can still say, Glad we got out , but Biden sure did a lousy job of doing it. I dont think the chaos of the pullout will be that easily forgotten. I am not a military planner, and dont have access to insider info, but there had to be a better way. Either the intelligence gathering was totally fucked up, or Biden did not act on it properly (or a combination of both).It looks especially bad since we appear to have learned nothing from the debacle of withdrawal from Vietnam.So in general America doesn't really want to be in Afghanistan anymore or think the was was worth it but is troubled by the pullout's, arguably inevitable, messiness.
The former sentiment seems likely to be more durable and top of mind than the latter. People proclaiming political doom for Biden over this are probably quite a bit over their skis.
IIRC, there was only one member of Congress that voted against going into Afghanistan, so it certainly was a bipartisan effort. I would blame Iraq most certainly on the neocon Republicans, but not Afghanistan.The left opposed this from the start. The fiasco of this war belongs to your lot - the right. The neocon project - which has ended in almost unprecedented levels of abject failure - was a project of the right, your team (the clue is in the name). Own it.
(Though I can't say it surprises me that you are trying to take a page from the Nazi playbook and employ a variant of the 'stab in the back' myth. )
It is two issues though. People can still say, Glad we got out , but Biden sure did a lousy job of doing it. I dont think the chaos of the pullout will be that easily forgotten. I am not a military planner, and dont have access to insider info, but there had to be a better way. Either the intelligence gathering was totally fucked up, or Biden did not act on it properly (or a combination of both).It looks especially bad since we appear to have learned nothing from the debacle of withdrawal from Vietnam.
It also goes to the issue of making Biden look incompetent and weak on national security, which are two of the prime talking points of the Republicans, so they are going to hammer it endlessly. IMO this is orders of magnitude worse than Benghazi, and even that was not forgotten.
IIRC, there was only one member of Congress that voted against going into Afghanistan, so it certainly was a bipartisan effort. I would blame Iraq most certainly on the neocon Republicans, but not Afghanistan.
Huh? They are called the 'progressives' - and they are certainly here.But liberals aren't 'the left'. There isn't really a left in the US.
I'm sorry, is that in answer to my question? It doesn't seem to be, but you did quote me.Sure, they plan to hold the airport until September. There remain tens of thousands trapped behind enemy lines. None of this addresses that.
US troops fire shots into the air and use teargas on desperate crowds as chaos at Kabul airport enters fifth day: Taliban block Westerners from reaching flights and Afghan mothers give their BABIES to soldiers
- Westerners and Afghan visa holders are facing fresh hell at Kabul airport today as they try to flee Afghanistan
- Ex-pats say they cannot reach checkpoints to get into the airfield because 'terrified locals' are blocking them
- Britons, Norwegians, Australians, and Canadians all said their way out of the country was blocked by crowds of Afghan refugees and Taliban guards who dished out beatings and whippings seemingly at random
- Paul Farthing, a British ex-Marine, said getting a flight is a 'lottery' and rubbished claims that the Taliban are letting people through checkpoints - saying he cannot even get to the checkpoint
- Flights are leaving the airport today, UK and US officials insisted, with more than 2,000 people due to fly out
This situation will be defined by what the Taliban decide to do with their thousands of American and foreign prisoners. A result of complete incompetence in intelligence and planning. They could be merciful and it turns out to be a lot of nothing. Or September 11th could be celebrated with mass beheadings. Or anything in-between. Regardless, the lives of many NATO citizens are in the hands of the Taliban.
Does n0b0dy know that his crown is being challenged?So not only do you know nothing about the constitution but you’ve now shown us that you don’t know shit about how government works either. Keep this up and you’ll be competing for the dumbest poster on p&n!
I wouldn't be so certain. The GOP was still talking about buttery emails way past 2016.People proclaiming political doom for Biden over this don't understand modern American politics. This is simply too early in his term to define his presidency or be political doom for him no matter how badly it goes. The news cycle is too fast, and Americans have too short of a memory, especially when it comes to anything that does not directly affect them, for this to be a major political issue. This will be forgotten before Christmas. There will be 10 more crises before the next Presidential election, and this one will be ancient history. I give it at best a 40% chance that it will even be mentioned in the debates.
I don't think Gen. Patraeus is wrong. The fact is that Mike Pompeo's State Dept. made a deal with the Taliban without the official government seated at the table. Trump wanted to invite the MFing Taliban to Camp David for a signing ceremony on 9/11. If you're a foot solider or civil servant in the Afghan government, that pretty much signaled the Taliban would ultimately retake power. The only question was how long to overthrow the government in Kabul. If you had any morale or hope that Afghanistan could stand without U.S. forces in-theatre, that deal would have dashed your hopes. You could argue that the straw that broke the camel's back was to see the Biden admin. actually recall troops a couple months ago, but that's the end game we all agreed upon. I'm not saying Biden couldn't have done things differently, but our withdrawal isn't what caused the Afghani government to collapse.Jus heard Gen. Patreus on the news. He was trying to argue that the Afghan troops didn't really abandon us but were disheartened because we said we were leaving. He further argued that our position was sustainable since there weren't any deaths in the last 18 months. Hmmm... I read a post from someone who said be weary of anyone making the argument there haven't been any deaths recently, because we had a cease fire with the Taliban and anyone in the know should know that. Our Military leaders can't be trusted.
I don't think Gen. Patraeus is wrong. The fact is that Mike Pompeo's State Dept. made a deal with the Taliban without the official government seated at the table. Trump wanted to invite the MFing Taliban to Camp David for a signing ceremony on 9/11. If you're a foot solider or civil servant in the Afghan government, that pretty much signaled the Taliban would ultimately retake power. The only question was how long to overthrow the government in Kabul. If you had any morale or hope that Afghanistan could stand without U.S. forces in-theatre, that deal would have dashed your hopes. You could argue that the straw that broke the camel's back was to see the Biden admin. actually recall troops a couple months ago, but that's the end game we all agreed upon. I'm not saying Biden couldn't have done things differently, but our withdrawal isn't what caused the Afghani government to collapse.
Some argue the position was sustainable-ish, but that's beside the point. As a nation, we wanted out of the Forever War. It appears we could have somewhat held the status quo with a permanent force of 2500ish, but the Taliban were steadily gaining ground regardless. Even if we were willing to stay in Kabul for years, it's clear much of Afghanistan would've been changing hands anyway.
I think it is stretching to say many on the left opposed Afghanistan from the start. Definitely more on the left than the right, but W had like an 80% approval rating at the start of the war. Iraq is a different story, though. I was pretty against Iraq, but didn't initially have a problem with Afghanistan, especially as originally pitched.The left opposed this from the start. The fiasco of this war belongs to your lot - the right. The neocon project - which has ended in almost unprecedented levels of abject failure - was a project of the right, your team (the clue is in the name). Own it.
(Though I can't say it surprises me that you are trying to take a page from the Nazi playbook and employ a variant of the 'stab in the back' myth. )
We're mostly in agreement. It's like a coddling parent who doesn't want their child leaving the house upon adulthood. But how long do you shield them for? At what point do you cut them loose and let them decide their own fate? I realize this is a simple analogy compared to the fate of a nation. I don't necessarily agree most of AF is comfortable with Taliban rule; some informal polling suggests otherwise. What we know from history is the average Afghani civilian isn't actively picking sides, but rather picking what they believe is the path of least resistance. It takes a ton of courage to collectively protest a brutal regime, and frankly I'm a little surprised there have been some public protests already.I hear you on that. But at a point you have to fight for your country, you can't be reliant on another country for your defense. And they knew eventually we would leave. Can you imagine that happening in the US? Honestly, I think a lot more in Afghanistan are comfortable with the Taliban way of life than we'd like to admit and being a soldier was just a paycheck.
But our position wasn't sustainable. I don't think anyone has seriously argued we could have held the status quo with a permanent force of 2500ish. Remember we were in a negotiated cease fire until May 1. Do you have any reporting of someone claiming that?
And I do hate that the reporting on this. The reason we needed to evacuate soo many people is because there was a large perception that the Taliban was going to eventually take over. I don't think you can't both argue that Biden didn't evacuate everyone earlier and also that his blunder let the Taliban take over.
Only U.S. Rep. Barbara Lee voted against the original Congressional authorization of the war on terror. At that point, only complete pacifists were opposing taking the fight directly to AQ. The sad thing is that authorization and the one later passed for Iraq are still in force.I think it is stretching to say many on the left opposed Afghanistan from the start. Definitely more on the left than the right, but W had like an 80% approval rating at the start of the war. Iraq is a different story, though. I was pretty against Iraq, but didn't initially have a problem with Afghanistan, especially as originally pitched.
We're mostly in agreement. It's like a coddling parent who doesn't want their child leaving the house upon adulthood. But how long do you shield them for? At what point do you cut them loose and let them decide their own fate? I realize this is a simple analogy compared to the fate of a nation. I don't necessarily agree most of AF is comfortable with Taliban rule; some informal polling suggests otherwise. What we know from history is the average Afghani civilian isn't actively picking sides, but rather picking what they believe is the path of least resistance. It takes a ton of courage to collectively protest a brutal regime, and frankly I'm a little surprised there have been some public protests already.
I read in some op-ed we could've kept our small forces there, but don't recall the source. But I said this "status quo" applied to just Kabul, and not the entire country. The Taliban began gaining ground once the Trump admin negotiated our withdrawal. The legitimate government rightly would've seen the writing on the wall and if they didn't, they had blinders on.
There's no doubt things that could have been done better. It is a pretty big fuck-up to rapidly withdraw starting some 2 months ago, but now having to surge back in just to evac our citizens. It should've been the other way around. Biden saw 9/11 as a date to cap the end of our longest war, but if we'd already missed the deal's May deadline, a few more months wouldn't have been a problem. Obviously, you would've wanted the troops home by Christmas at the very latest. Chuck Todd asked Antony Blinken on MTP why we didn't target closer to winter, when the conditions in the hinterland get harsh and the Taliban hibernate after the "fighting season."
Only U.S. Rep. Barbara Lee voted against the original Congressional authorization of the war on terror. At that point, only complete pacifists were opposing taking the fight directly to AQ. The sad thing is that authorization and the one later passed for Iraq are still in force.
I think it is stretching to say many on the left opposed Afghanistan from the start. Definitely more on the left than the right, but W had like an 80% approval rating at the start of the war. Iraq is a different story, though. I was pretty against Iraq, but didn't initially have a problem with Afghanistan, especially as originally pitched.
So Assange figured out what peaceniks have known since the 1950s?
The same fear that gave us the "Patriot Act" ( I throw up every time I say that ) prompted those authorizations. The vast majority of my friends and family opposed it vehemently.The sad thing is that authorization and the one later passed for Iraq are still in force.
I don't agree with violence as a form of protest. You and the other Libatrds love mostly peaceful protests until someone else tries it. Nice homophobic insult from the frustrated useful idiot that is low on facts and aptitude.Keep raging buddy.
If you had testicles you would have brought a rifle to the capitol on January 6th like all your girlfriends. Instead you're like the other 70 million who just eat bullshit and hate America and do nothing to make it better.
Joe Biden and others flip flopped on if and when they knew that the Tallyban would take over Afghanistan.It is weird how people continue to take Trump at his word after he has spent the last five years relentlessly lying about literally everything.