Why christians should NOT support the ban on gay marriages.

[PlatinumGold]

If your basis is REALLY religion, then how can you even IMPLY that ANYTHING the government does could place a civil union on equal footing with the "institution" of marriage.

either Marriage is a SACRAMENT / Institution of GOD and can ONLY be bestowed BY the church / religion OR it is nothing more than a civil union.

either way, the government can NEVER do more than license the civil union part, NOTHING the government does can make a civil union a MARRIAGE (in the religious sense).

so quit lying, the ONLY reason you are objecting is because you are a HOMOPHOBE. ANY christian no matter WHAT their persuasion will acknowledge that RELIGIOUS institutions can ONLY be instituted BY the church and NOT by the government.

face it people, you can't have your cake and eat it too, it's ONLY one or the other, ALL marriage is NOTHING more than a civil union (in which your argument is TOTALLY baseless) OR Marriage is a UNION bestowed BY GOD and ALL the government can do is licence a Civil Union (in which case your argument is TOTALLY baseless).

there is NO middle ground here where you can claim that WHAT the government does = marriage (the religious institution).

 

[AFB]

<alert>:QFlame Fest :Q</alert>

 

[notfred]

I want to see the passages from the bible that say marriage is an institution of god. I never remember reading that part.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: notfred
I want to see the passages from the bible that say marriage is an institution of god. I never remember reading that part.

fine it doesn't

MOST of the christian objections to gay marriage is how it is a God granted thing.

IF you hold that to be true than you have NO reason to think that what the government does will impact that.

 

[Ameesh]

i think most christians just don't like the lifestyle and they dont want to support it in anyway.

 

[ElFenix]

i hate religion!

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
i think most christians just don't like the lifestyle and they dont want to support it in anyway.

fine, then they should say that instead of all this talk of "foundation" "morality" etc etc.

that's what pisses me off, they lie.

just admit there is no real religious basis for denying a civil union.

 

[steveeast112]

I am Catholic, yet I don't think that gay marriage is bad. According to Leviticus, sleeping with another man if you're a man is an abomination, but I believe that people should be able to have choice in the matter of who they marry.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ameesh
i think most christians just don't like the lifestyle and they dont want to support it in anyway.

fine, then they should say that instead of all this talk of "foundation" "morality" etc etc.

that's what pisses me off, they lie.

just admit there is no real religious basis for denying a civil union.

yes, there is. it undermines marriage, since it has the same benefits, and hardly including any of the drawbacks, such as, say divorce. as it stands, it's actually much easier to get a "civil union" than a marraige, and its much more easily manageable, too.

Plat - the government is put into place by God to keep society in line.

read up on theology a bit. marriage was created by God, too, but I'm not going to go into that at the moment.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ameesh
i think most christians just don't like the lifestyle and they dont want to support it in anyway.

fine, then they should say that instead of all this talk of "foundation" "morality" etc etc.

that's what pisses me off, they lie.

just admit there is no real religious basis for denying a civil union.

yes, there is. it undermines marriage, since it has the same benefits, and hardly including any of the drawbacks, such as, say divorce. as it stands, it's actually much easier to get a "civil union" than a marraige, and its much more easily manageable, too.

Plat - the government is put into place by God to keep society in line.

read up on theology a bit. marriage was created by God, too, but I'm not going to go into that at the moment.

uhhh, since i have a masters in theology, i'd say i'm rather well read on theology.

i disagree with you on the relationship between god and the government.

throughout history, most of the greatest evils men has done to other men has been in the attempt to force religious believes on others.

hence this country had as part of its foundation the idea of separation between church and state.

 

[Riprorin]

Fyi,

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 13 In context: Hebrews 13:3-5)

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Fyi,

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 13 In context: Hebrews 13:3-5)

God will judge, NOT the consitution will ban.

 

[Wingznut]

Didn't we have the exact same arguments back in the 50's when interracial marriages were legalized?

 

[steelels1]

Originally posted by: steveeast112
I am Catholic, yet I don't think that gay marriage is bad. According to Leviticus, sleeping with another man if you're a man is an abomination, but I believe that people should be able to have choice in the matter of who they marry.

(steveeast112 - not attacking you at all, just using your post as a chance to address this -)
Yes, it also say's that it's an equal abomination as adultry, incest etc. Yet we have no law banning adultry... Oh, and the parts about how eating shellfish is bad, you shouldn't shave your beard, a woman shouldn't wear red, you shouldn't get tattoo's or piercings... (yes, I'm aware of the "explanations" religious folk use to explain away the parts they don't like). And if you're going by the old testament, you can also drag your kid out in the street and have him stoned if he/she defies you (< I do like that part).

Seems like most christians just pick and choose from the bible what suits them, and if it doesn't suit them they just say "times change" or some crap like that. If you're doing it by the book, all women/girls should cover their heads, no one should be allowed to divorce over "differences", and women couldn't work outside the home, etc.
I know there are exceptions, but the majority of christians I know are enormous hypocrites.

And BTW, what in the hell is the "gay lifestyle" anyway (referring to an above post)? Oh wait, there isn't one. So please stop using the term already. Being attracted towards your own sex doesn't change your entire "lifestyle". There are certain "lifestyles" a gay person can adopt, but just being born gay certainly doesn't mean you automatically belong to one.

And PlatinumGold - I'm glad someone finally had the balls to come out and say that. Too bad it's going to start a flamewar...

 

[Yax]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Fyi,

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 13 In context: Hebrews 13:3-5)

What does not cheating on your spouse have to do with gay marriage?

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ameesh
i think most christians just don't like the lifestyle and they dont want to support it in anyway.

fine, then they should say that instead of all this talk of "foundation" "morality" etc etc.

that's what pisses me off, they lie.

just admit there is no real religious basis for denying a civil union.

yes, there is. it undermines marriage, since it has the same benefits, and hardly including any of the drawbacks, such as, say divorce. as it stands, it's actually much easier to get a "civil union" than a marraige, and its much more easily manageable, too.

Plat - the government is put into place by God to keep society in line.

read up on theology a bit. marriage was created by God, too, but I'm not going to go into that at the moment.

uhhh, since i have a masters in theology, i'd say i'm rather well read on theology.

i disagree with you on the relationship between god and the government.

throughout history, most of the greatest evils men has done to other men has been in the attempt to force religious believes on others.

hence this country had as part of its foundation the idea of separation between church and state.

throughout history, most of the greatest evils men has done to other men has been in the attempt to force religious believes on others.
improper application of Christianity does no equate with Christianity being flawed. That is an err of man, not of God. The separation of church and state is a means to prevent the government from specifically endorsing one religion above others (liberals these days, most notably, have been distorting the meaning of that particular section of the Constitution).

On the relationship between God and government -
then, by what you say, government is innately evil, then? the Christian life is not only on sunday mornings, it is to permeate all aspects of one's life - otherwise, one is simply perpetuating a mockery of God. therefore, I hold the government to the same standards that I hold everything else. this means that I (me, I, first person singular) want the government to operate on Biblical principles.

Of course, while this is not necessarily unconstitutional, it will never happen, especially in this day and age. Nevertheless, I will do my part in the democratic part of the government, and support the ban on gay civil unions, etc.

 

[Riprorin]

What do you think the government should do in regard to abortion?

Just wondering where you draw the line.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: steveeast112
I am Catholic, yet I don't think that gay marriage is bad. According to Leviticus, sleeping with another man if you're a man is an abomination, but I believe that people should be able to have choice in the matter of who they marry.

*cough*
Sodom and Gomorrah.

Also, you're awfully naive if you think that the "lying in bed" part is literal. Lying in bed would, of course mean sex, but it may extend beyond that.

On the other hand, if you allow gays to marry, then what are they going to do? Sleep on opposite sides of the room and act as friends, and eschew being lovers? No. So why marriage?

 

[steelels1]

Originally posted by: Wingznut
Didn't we have the exact same arguments back in the 50's when interracial marriages were legalized?

We certainly did. They even gave the same "reasons" - It will harm children/send the wrong messages, it will hurt the sanctity of marriage, etc.
Even preachers were in on it preaching how god wanted the races to remain seperate and such. Exact same thing, just 50 years later. Lets just hope common sense wins this one too.

 

[PlatinumGold]

improper application of Christianity does no equate with Christianity being flawed. That is an err of man, not of God. The separation of church and state is a means to prevent the government from specifically endorsing one religion above others (liberals these days, most notably, have been distorting the meaning of that particular section of the Constitution).

On the relationship between God and government -
then, by what you say, government is innately evil, then? the Christian life is not only on sunday mornings, it is to permeate all aspects of one's life - otherwise, one is simply perpetuating a mockery of God. therefore, I hold the government to the same standards that I hold everything else. this means that I (me, I, first person singular) want the government to operate on Biblical principles.

Of course, while this is not necessarily unconstitutional, it will never happen, especially in this day and age. Nevertheless, I will do my part in the democratic part of the government, and support the ban on gay civil unions, etc.

nothing you said contradicts my original post tho.

face it, most christians (and i am a christian) contradict themselves on this issue. why is it what 2 grown adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom bother you soo much?? whether it be man and man, man and woman, husband and wife, husband and other woman, wife and other man.

so what, why do you have to judge them, don't you believe that ultimately it's GOD and ONLY god that judges them??

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
What do you think the government should do in regard to abortion?

Just wondering where you draw the line.

Ban it.

I draw the line at governments becoming oppressive and tyrranical. Banning abortion is hardly such.

:wine:

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
What do you think the government should do in regard to abortion?

Just wondering where you draw the line.

i personally am opposed to abortion BUT i believe that women should have the final say as it is their bodies.

i hate the idea of abortion but i hate the idea of the federal government legislating it even more.

didn't prohibition teach us ANYTHING?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: notfred
I want to see the passages from the bible that say marriage is an institution of god. I never remember reading that part.

You're kidding right? Must be because you never read any of it.
Why don't you just read the entire book of 1 Corinthians?

cheapbidder01, the vow of fidelity is the very core of marriage.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

improper application of Christianity does no equate with Christianity being flawed. That is an err of man, not of God. The separation of church and state is a means to prevent the government from specifically endorsing one religion above others (liberals these days, most notably, have been distorting the meaning of that particular section of the Constitution).

On the relationship between God and government -
then, by what you say, government is innately evil, then? the Christian life is not only on sunday mornings, it is to permeate all aspects of one's life - otherwise, one is simply perpetuating a mockery of God. therefore, I hold the government to the same standards that I hold everything else. this means that I (me, I, first person singular) want the government to operate on Biblical principles.

Of course, while this is not necessarily unconstitutional, it will never happen, especially in this day and age. Nevertheless, I will do my part in the democratic part of the government, and support the ban on gay civil unions, etc.

nothing you said contradicts my original post tho.

face it, most christians (and i am a christian) contradict themselves on this issue. why is it what 2 grown adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom bother you soo much?? whether it be man and man, man and woman, husband and wife, husband and other woman, wife and other man.

so what, why do you have to judge them, don't you believe that ultimately it's GOD and ONLY god that judges them??

So then, according to that logic, why should we care about murder? Why should we care what happens between two people in a back alley? Why should we judge them, because, in the end, isn't it God alone who judges them?

NO, that logic is flawed. Back to the point that the government (including the judiciary system) was appointed by God.

In addition, homosexuality is strictly abhorred by God. Lot, a "man of God", as it is said by the Bible, even offered his daughters to the men of Sodom when they said they wanted to have their way with the men who had visited him. Not to mention the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their sexual pervertion (which went beyond homosexuality, but it is mentioned prominently).

Plus the verse in Leviticus (18:22) "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."

We, as Christians, are supposed to share the heart of our God, since He is the only one worth serving on the long term. Am I going to allow popular opinion in a society with a verified moral decay change my convictions? Hardly.

 

[BladeWalker]

I notice that Christians also talk about spiritual love, yet they cannot get pass the idea that two people of the same sex can fall in love. They let the physical attribute (same gender) be a roadblock for any kind of emotional and spiritual bond between these couples.