if you can't see or understand the self preservations aspects of outlawing murder, robbery, rape etc then you have a real problem.
law is about self preservation NOT morality.
So then, according to that logic, why should we care about murder? Why should we care what happens between two people in a back alley? Why should we judge them, because, in the end, isn't it God alone who judges them?
NO, that logic is flawed. Back to the point that the government (including the judiciary system) was appointed by God.
In addition, homosexuality is strictly abhorred by God. Lot, a "man of God", as it is said by the Bible, even offered his daughters to the men of Sodom when they said they wanted to have their way with the men who had visited him. Not to mention the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their sexual pervertion (which went beyond homosexuality, but it is mentioned prominently).
Plus the verse in Leviticus (18:22) "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
We, as Christians, are supposed to share the heart of our God, since He is the only one worth serving on the long term. Am I going to allow popular opinion in a society with a verified moral decay change my convictions? Hardly.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGoldOriginally posted by: Riprorin
What do you think the government should do in regard to abortion?
Just wondering where you draw the line.
i personally am opposed to abortion BUT i believe that women should have the final say as it is their bodies.
i hate the idea of abortion but i hate the idea of the federal government legislating it even more.
didn't prohibition teach us ANYTHING?
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
So then, according to that logic, why should we care about murder? Why should we care what happens between two people in a back alley? Why should we judge them, because, in the end, isn't it God alone who judges them?
NO, that logic is flawed. Back to the point that the government (including the judiciary system) was appointed by God.
In addition, homosexuality is strictly abhorred by God. Lot, a "man of God", as it is said by the Bible, even offered his daughters to the men of Sodom when they said they wanted to have their way with the men who had visited him. Not to mention the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their sexual pervertion (which went beyond homosexuality, but it is mentioned prominently).
Plus the verse in Leviticus (18:22) "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
We, as Christians, are supposed to share the heart of our God, since He is the only one worth serving on the long term. Am I going to allow popular opinion in a society with a verified moral decay change my convictions? Hardly.
if you can't see or understand the self preservations aspects of outlawing murder, robbery, rape etc then you have a real problem.
law is about self preservation NOT morality.
Alcohol isn't even condemned in the Bible. This is a much different matter.
Besides, the use was widespread by the 1920s. I imagine if we allow the abortion practices to continue, by 2050 if we do place a ban on abortion, the same thing will happen.
Women do have a say in their bodies, but that baby inside of them is not their domain. I value human life more than human convenience, even if it is a great burden on the woman. The woman doesn't even need to keep the baby - put them up for adoption, if you need to!
What about laws concerning speed limits? Are those bad, too? I mean, it's MY car, and MY body. And if I don't drive fast enough, it inconveniences me! Plus, the government should not regulate anything!
I dunno whether to use or to express my sarcasm here... =/
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm a Christian and I tend to agree with PlatinumGold.
I find abortion, and to a much lesser extent gay marriage, abhorent, but I'm not sure that legislating against them serves any real function.
If you are really passionate about these issues, get involved in your church and community and try to make a difference that way.
Originally posted by: Amorphus
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
improper application of Christianity does no equate with Christianity being flawed. That is an err of man, not of God. The separation of church and state is a means to prevent the government from specifically endorsing one religion above others (liberals these days, most notably, have been distorting the meaning of that particular section of the Constitution).
On the relationship between God and government -
then, by what you say, government is innately evil, then? the Christian life is not only on sunday mornings, it is to permeate all aspects of one's life - otherwise, one is simply perpetuating a mockery of God. therefore, I hold the government to the same standards that I hold everything else. this means that I (me, I, first person singular) want the government to operate on Biblical principles.
Of course, while this is not necessarily unconstitutional, it will never happen, especially in this day and age. Nevertheless, I will do my part in the democratic part of the government, and support the ban on gay civil unions, etc.
nothing you said contradicts my original post tho.
face it, most christians (and i am a christian) contradict themselves on this issue. why is it what 2 grown adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom bother you soo much?? whether it be man and man, man and woman, husband and wife, husband and other woman, wife and other man.
so what, why do you have to judge them, don't you believe that ultimately it's GOD and ONLY god that judges them??
So then, according to that logic, why should we care about murder? Why should we care what happens between two people in a back alley? Why should we judge them, because, in the end, isn't it God alone who judges them?
NO, that logic is flawed. Back to the point that the government (including the judiciary system) was appointed by God.
In addition, homosexuality is strictly abhorred by God. Lot, a "man of God", as it is said by the Bible, even offered his daughters to the men of Sodom when they said they wanted to have their way with the men who had visited him. Not to mention the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their sexual pervertion (which went beyond homosexuality, but it is mentioned prominently).
Plus the verse in Leviticus (18:22) "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
We, as Christians, are supposed to share the heart of our God, since He is the only one worth serving on the long term. Am I going to allow popular opinion in a society with a verified moral decay change my convictions? Hardly.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm a Christian and I tend to agree with PlatinumGold.
I find abortion, and to a much lesser extent gay marriage, abhorent, but I'm not sure that legislating against them serves any real function.
If you are really passionate about these issues, get involved in your church and community and try to make a difference that way.
Originally posted by: Amorphus
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm a Christian and I tend to agree with PlatinumGold.
I find abortion, and to a much lesser extent gay marriage, abhorent, but I'm not sure that legislating against them serves any real function.
If you are really passionate about these issues, get involved in your church and community and try to make a difference that way.
It would certainly cut down on abortions, for one.
Banning gay marriages won't cut down on homosexuality, but it will protect the institution of marriage.
If I'm passionate about these issues, why not get involved with my local community via politics? In a democratic system such as we are on the town and state level, politics IS involvement with the community.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Alcohol isn't even condemned in the Bible. This is a much different matter.
Besides, the use was widespread by the 1920s. I imagine if we allow the abortion practices to continue, by 2050 if we do place a ban on abortion, the same thing will happen.
Women do have a say in their bodies, but that baby inside of them is not their domain. I value human life more than human convenience, even if it is a great burden on the woman. The woman doesn't even need to keep the baby - put them up for adoption, if you need to!
What about laws concerning speed limits? Are those bad, too? I mean, it's MY car, and MY body. And if I don't drive fast enough, it inconveniences me! Plus, the government should not regulate anything!
I dunno whether to use or to express my sarcasm here... =/
prohibition was an attempt to legislate MORALITY. don't you get the connection??
you OBVIOUSLY haven't read my post above.
again, the attempt to legislate morality ALWAYS ends up badly. ALWAYS. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
do you really want to do a study of government over time and how they've EVOLVED (OMFG he used the bad bad E word).
democracy is the BEST form of government yet and the reason for it is, it does the least to legislate morality.
your comment earlier regarding "christians" as opposed to christians was ridiculous.
my point earlier and my point here remains the same, the attempt to legislate morality has ALWAYS increased human suffering, this is NOT what god desires.
what do you mean?your comment earlier regarding "christians" as opposed to christians was ridiculous.
I have no grudge against homosexuals, other than their practice. I don't ostracise them, nor do I participate in gay-bashing or otherwise. I make an effort to practice the same love for them as Jesus had for me, as per his commandment, and thus, that comment is rather insulting.so quit lying, the ONLY reason you are objecting is because you are a HOMOPHOBE
Right, because the 50% failure rate of said institution really needs protection from queers.Banning gay marriages won't cut down on homosexuality, but it will protect the institution of marriage.
Originally posted by: Maleficus
I'm not seeing your arguement at all plat. They should support the ban because according to christianity it is immoral and sinful.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Amorphus
Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm a Christian and I tend to agree with PlatinumGold.
I find abortion, and to a much lesser extent gay marriage, abhorent, but I'm not sure that legislating against them serves any real function.
If you are really passionate about these issues, get involved in your church and community and try to make a difference that way.
It would certainly cut down on abortions, for one.
Banning gay marriages won't cut down on homosexuality, but it will protect the institution of marriage.
If I'm passionate about these issues, why not get involved with my local community via politics? In a democratic system such as we are on the town and state level, politics IS involvement with the community.
no, LEGISLATION is a cheap excuse to NOT witness, because true witnessing requires effort. it requires that the person you witness to understands your message, legislation just says, BECAUSE i say so.
i'm getting the impression that you probably to serve that type of god. me personally i don't -what???
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Maleficus
I'm not seeing your arguement at all plat. They should support the ban because according to christianity it is immoral and sinful.
let's say it so it is more clear.
1st i don't believe that morality should EVER be legislated. but that wasn't what i was arguing in my OP.
1) most christians believe that marriage is an institution of god, and as was posted about 4 posts up, if 2 people (man and woman) fell in love on a deserted island, they wouldn't need a government certificate to make it a marriage, they could in the eyes of god say their vows and be married.
2) when i got married in korea, i went to the embassy to get a marriage certificate but we had a religious ceremony. by law we were married, but we were not married in the eyes of god until the ministry pronounced us husband and wife.
3) if christians TRULY believe that marriage is an institution of god, than WHAT the government does should not make a difference to them.
Then explain every single book of law in the Old Testament, please.
Legislating morality hardly ends up badly - prohibition's negative effects stemmed from the fact that immorality had progressed far enough that the people could not control themselves, NOT from the fact that it was a legislation concerning morality. If you look at why mobs started forming, it was because they wanted the drug of alcohol.
Democracy is the "best" form of government, in the public eye, because it does the most to protect the rights of the individual citizen, not because it doesn't legislate morality. It is majority rule. You're twisting the facts to support your argument now, really.
Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
PlatinumGold, you are a dumbass. Stop tossing around the term "homophobe" like everyone opposed to gays is one. Sounds like you're so insecure in your own feelings that you need to make everyone else "look bad" who doesn't agree with your twisted sense of reality. Go sit on a pole and spin if that's your fancy, but I'm not going to agree with you or your decision.
Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
PlatinumGold, you are a dumbass. Stop tossing around the term "homophobe" like everyone opposed to gays is one. Sounds like you're so insecure in your own feelings that you need to make everyone else "look bad" who doesn't agree with your twisted sense of reality. Go sit on a pole and spin if that's your fancy, but I'm not going to agree with you or your decision.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Then explain every single book of law in the Old Testament, please.
Legislating morality hardly ends up badly - prohibition's negative effects stemmed from the fact that immorality had progressed far enough that the people could not control themselves, NOT from the fact that it was a legislation concerning morality. If you look at why mobs started forming, it was because they wanted the drug of alcohol.
Democracy is the "best" form of government, in the public eye, because it does the most to protect the rights of the individual citizen, not because it doesn't legislate morality. It is majority rule. You're twisting the facts to support your argument now, really.
it's called a theocracy. god chose to use that form of government for the israelites because that's what the people understood back then. we have also seen government evolve over time.
why is it that there is such a difference between the OT and NT? why the shift from focus on LAW in the OT to LOVE in the NT.
WHO'S NOT CALM?!! I'M CALM!! I'M CALM!!!!Originally posted by: Amorphus
Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
PlatinumGold, you are a dumbass. Stop tossing around the term "homophobe" like everyone opposed to gays is one. Sounds like you're so insecure in your own feelings that you need to make everyone else "look bad" who doesn't agree with your twisted sense of reality. Go sit on a pole and spin if that's your fancy, but I'm not going to agree with you or your decision.
Hey, hey, hey, calm down. We're doing pretty good in this thread, don't throw a match into it.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Perhaps one day I'll come upon a good reason why legally gays cannot marry. I keep throwing this comment out here, but I've yet to hear it, so I guess it's bigotry, ignorance, homophobia, as I mentioned in another thread, that's keeping people from supporting the legal act of marriage for gays.