Why christians should NOT support the ban on gay marriages.

[steveeast112]

Originally posted by: steelels1

Originally posted by: steveeast112
I am Catholic, yet I don't think that gay marriage is bad. According to Leviticus, sleeping with another man if you're a man is an abomination, but I believe that people should be able to have choice in the matter of who they marry.

(steveeast112 - not attacking you at all, just using your post as a chance to address this -)
Yes, it also say's that it's an equal abomination as adultry, incest etc. Yet we have no law banning adultry... Oh, and the parts about how eating shellfish is bad, you shouldn't shave your beard, a woman shouldn't wear red, you shouldn't get tattoo's or piercings... (yes, I'm aware of the "explanations" religious folk use to explain away the parts they don't like). And if you're going by the old testament, you can also drag your kid out in the street and have him stoned if he/she defies you (< I do like that part).

Seems like most christians just pick and choose from the bible what suits them, and if it doesn't suit them they just say "times change" or some crap like that. If you're doing it by the book, all women/girls should cover their heads, no one should be allowed to divorce over "differences", and women couldn't work outside the home, etc.
I know there are exceptions, but the majority of christians I know are enormous hypocrites.

And BTW, what in the hell is the "gay lifestyle" anyway (referring to an above post)? Oh wait, there isn't one. So please stop using the term already. Being attracted towards your own sex doesn't change your entire "lifestyle". There are certain "lifestyles" a gay person can adopt, but just being born gay certainly doesn't mean you automatically belong to one.

The problem is that most Christians try to force their beliefs on others. This is wrong. Bush believes that this gay marriage is wrong, so he is trying to assert his beliefs onto other people. The whole point of Christianity and most notably Catholicism is to have your own beliefs. You are not being a good Christian if you're trying to tell other people that your religion is better. I don't do that because I think that that's an odious belief that was outdated 400 years ago.

There is starting to be a problem though with some aspects of American culture now. Although I support choice for gay marriage and for abortion, covering your head if you are Christian was outlawed at the first Vatican Council. The Second Vatican Council said that women are allowed just as many right as men, which include working and voting. However, I find the current divorce rates staggering and disappointing. I'm not saying that all divorces are bad, it's just that many times people just divorce if they feel like it. Again, I support choice, but not when its about stealing a person's money under the cover of "irreconcilable differences." This is wrong, and is going against one of the ten commandments.

I'm not meaning to force my beliefs on others. This is just my viewpoint.

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Perhaps one day I'll come upon a good reason why legally gays cannot marry. I keep throwing this comment out here, but I've yet to hear it, so I guess it's bigotry, ignorance, homophobia, as I mentioned in another thread, that's keeping people from supporting the legal act of marriage for gays.

I'm not homophobic nor do i consider myself a bigot or ignorant. I do know that I think it is completely and 100% wrong for two men or women to be considered a married couple.

I think it wrong, im not gonna go out and campaign against gay marriages or try and convince people that gays are evil and need to die, but if a vote comes up I will support a ban on gay marriages.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
PlatinumGold, you are a dumbass. Stop tossing around the term "homophobe" like everyone opposed to gays is one. Sounds like you're so insecure in your own feelings that you need to make everyone else "look bad" who doesn't agree with your twisted sense of reality. Go sit on a pole and spin if that's your fancy, but I'm not going to agree with you or your decision.

Hey, hey, hey, calm down. We're doing pretty good in this thread, don't throw a match into it.

WHO'S NOT CALM?!! I'M CALM!! I'M CALM!!!!

*shakes*


But seriously, PlatinumGold's homophobe rhetoric got old about twenty gay threads ago...

The homophobe rhetoric got tiring after the second liberal said it.

btw, NB: in this instance I use "liberal" not to mean leftists, or democrats, but rather people who are in support of homosexuality. Because conservatives seldom are (although I would call conservatives supporting gay marriage as having liberal beliefs on such a matter).

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Then explain every single book of law in the Old Testament, please.

Legislating morality hardly ends up badly - prohibition's negative effects stemmed from the fact that immorality had progressed far enough that the people could not control themselves, NOT from the fact that it was a legislation concerning morality. If you look at why mobs started forming, it was because they wanted the drug of alcohol.

Democracy is the "best" form of government, in the public eye, because it does the most to protect the rights of the individual citizen, not because it doesn't legislate morality. It is majority rule. You're twisting the facts to support your argument now, really.

it's called a theocracy. god chose to use that form of government for the israelites because that's what the people understood back then. we have also seen government evolve over time.

why is it that there is such a difference between the OT and NT? why the shift from focus on LAW in the OT to LOVE in the NT.

Because all Jesus did was to change the means to salvation, and change how spiritual accountability operated. The Old Testament still applies to us.

if God instated such a system in Israel in the Biblical times, then would you not say that God endorsed such a system? God does not "change his mind", nor does he change - his decree is final, and He, as well as us, is bound to His word.

I suppose the democracy would be the best system now, because of the changes in society (less morality leads to less responsibility and honor in the government), thus keeping corruption to a minimum, but that doesn't mean we should throw morality out the window.

:wine:

that god is eternal line is misused.

GOD does not change but MAN does and hence his methods do.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
PlatinumGold, you are a dumbass. Stop tossing around the term "homophobe" like everyone opposed to gays is one. Sounds like you're so insecure in your own feelings that you need to make everyone else "look bad" who doesn't agree with your twisted sense of reality. Go sit on a pole and spin if that's your fancy, but I'm not going to agree with you or your decision.

sorry to dissappoint you, i'm not insecure.

to give you an idea of where i come from, i was raped by a 15 yr old boy when i was 6 yrs old. so don't tell me about what i do or do not feel about homosexuals.

how i personally feel about homosexuals however is TOTALLY irrelevant to the discussion at hand. the truth is, most christians are unwilling to accept gay marriage for reasons OTHER than legal ones. MOST of it IS an attempt to shove their morality down the throat of others and THAT scares me more than the 15 yr old that raped me when i was very young.

I never addressed the way you felt about homosexuals, I'm addressing the "shoving" of your feelings on other people, which you keep doing when you call people opposed to homosexuals homophobes, while at the same time you're so concerned with others "shoving" their morals on you.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Then explain every single book of law in the Old Testament, please.

Legislating morality hardly ends up badly - prohibition's negative effects stemmed from the fact that immorality had progressed far enough that the people could not control themselves, NOT from the fact that it was a legislation concerning morality. If you look at why mobs started forming, it was because they wanted the drug of alcohol.

Democracy is the "best" form of government, in the public eye, because it does the most to protect the rights of the individual citizen, not because it doesn't legislate morality. It is majority rule. You're twisting the facts to support your argument now, really.

it's called a theocracy. god chose to use that form of government for the israelites because that's what the people understood back then. we have also seen government evolve over time.

why is it that there is such a difference between the OT and NT? why the shift from focus on LAW in the OT to LOVE in the NT.

Because all Jesus did was to change the means to salvation, and change how spiritual accountability operated. The Old Testament still applies to us.

if God instated such a system in Israel in the Biblical times, then would you not say that God endorsed such a system? God does not "change his mind", nor does he change - his decree is final, and He, as well as us, is bound to His word.

I suppose the democracy would be the best system now, because of the changes in society (less morality leads to less responsibility and honor in the government), thus keeping corruption to a minimum, but that doesn't mean we should throw morality out the window.

:wine:

that god is eternal line is misused.

GOD does not change but MAN does and hence his methods do.

Man changes, but God's standards don't. Thus, why I said democracy may be the best application of government. However, I'd also like to point out that we should not throw morality out either. God never said THOU SHALT USE THEOCRACY, but he did say homosexuality was an abomination in his eyes.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Perhaps one day I'll come upon a good reason why legally gays cannot marry. I keep throwing this comment out here, but I've yet to hear it, so I guess it's bigotry, ignorance, homophobia, as I mentioned in another thread, that's keeping people from supporting the legal act of marriage for gays.

Unless you view homosexuality as sin and abomination, in which case it is responsibility and morality which keeps me from supporting such a thing.

You should not be imposing your religious beliefs on the law of the land; separation of church and state.

I think it wrong, im not gonna go out and campaign against gay marriages or try and convince people that gays are evil and need to die, but if a vote comes up I will support a ban on gay marriages.

Again, you're trying to impose your morals on people and frankly it's none of your business. They are not hurting anybody. This isn't a law trying to endorse pedophilia, but something between two consenting adults who both will benefit from it.

 

[PlatinumGold]

I never addressed the way you felt about homosexuals, I'm addressing the "shoving" of your feelings on other people, which you keep doing when you call people opposed to homosexuals homophobes, while at the same time you're so concerned with others "shoving" their morals on you.

do you have a problem differentiating between people expressing their opinions on a forum and AMENDING the constitution??

if not, then you need to go back to school.

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: steveeast112

Originally posted by: steelels1

Originally posted by: steveeast112
I am Catholic, yet I don't think that gay marriage is bad. According to Leviticus, sleeping with another man if you're a man is an abomination, but I believe that people should be able to have choice in the matter of who they marry.

(steveeast112 - not attacking you at all, just using your post as a chance to address this -)
Yes, it also say's that it's an equal abomination as adultry, incest etc. Yet we have no law banning adultry... Oh, and the parts about how eating shellfish is bad, you shouldn't shave your beard, a woman shouldn't wear red, you shouldn't get tattoo's or piercings... (yes, I'm aware of the "explanations" religious folk use to explain away the parts they don't like). And if you're going by the old testament, you can also drag your kid out in the street and have him stoned if he/she defies you (< I do like that part).

Seems like most christians just pick and choose from the bible what suits them, and if it doesn't suit them they just say "times change" or some crap like that. If you're doing it by the book, all women/girls should cover their heads, no one should be allowed to divorce over "differences", and women couldn't work outside the home, etc.
I know there are exceptions, but the majority of christians I know are enormous hypocrites.

And BTW, what in the hell is the "gay lifestyle" anyway (referring to an above post)? Oh wait, there isn't one. So please stop using the term already. Being attracted towards your own sex doesn't change your entire "lifestyle". There are certain "lifestyles" a gay person can adopt, but just being born gay certainly doesn't mean you automatically belong to one.

The problem is that most Christians try to force their beliefs on others. This is wrong. Bush believes that this gay marriage is wrong, so he is trying to assert his beliefs onto other people. The whole point of Christianity and most notably Catholicism is to have your own beliefs. You are not being a good Christian if you're trying to tell other people that your religion is better. I don't do that because I think that that's an odious belief that was outdated 400 years ago.

There is starting to be a problem though with some aspects of American culture now. Although I support choice for gay marriage and for abortion, covering your head if you are Christian was outlawed at the first Vatican Council. The Second Vatican Council said that women are allowed just as many right as men, which include working and voting. However, I find the current divorce rates staggering and disappointing. I'm not saying that all divorces are bad, it's just that many times people just divorce if they feel like it. Again, I support choice, but not when its about stealing a person's money under the cover of "irreconcilable differences." This is wrong, and is going against one of the ten commandments.

I'm not meaning to force my beliefs on others. This is just my viewpoint.

I'm pretty tired of everyone complaining about this as if every day they wake up to a sea of christians at their doorstep following their every move with pamphlets and threats of hellfire and brimstone. I've never once had someone come up and try and convert me to ANYTHING. The worst I have ever had is Jehovah's Witnesses come and give me pamphlets, I told them i wasn't interested and they tried a little more but I simply said no and that was that. People seem to make a tremendous deal out of what seems like nothing. Unless I am in some kind of neutral zone and its like an epidemic in the rest of the U.S. People need to chill with the conversion speeches.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: MAME
WE NEED MORE RELIGIOUS/CHRISTAIN THREADS ON ATOT!

No sh!t man!

 

[StageLeft]

Oh yeah I forgot. Since I don't like violent movies I'm going to move for a constitutional ban on movies that are anything more than PG13. Video games? Waste of time. I think I'll ban them. People who drive black cars? Bad luck. Ban. Holding hands? Bad. Ban. I also don't like interracial marriages. I will see them banned.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Amorphus
However, I'd also like to point out that we should not throw morality out either. God never said THOU SHALT USE THEOCRACY, but he did say homosexuality was an abomination in his eyes.

Trust me on this one: God can do His own dirty work. If people want to do sinful things, let 'em answer to a higher power. Making it illegal isn't going to save anybody, it's just wasting a whole lot of time and money.

 

[JackBurton]

Then explain every single book of law in the Old Testament, please.

I need to get something straight here. Are you saying you base your life on God's laws in the Old Testament?

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh yeah I forgot. Since I don't like violent movies I'm going to move for a constitutional ban on movies that are anything more than PG13. Video games? Waste of time. I think I'll ban them. People who drive black cars? Bad luck. Ban. Holding hands? Bad. Ban. I also don't like interracial marriages. I will see them banned.

Good thing we're being rational and down to earth, no extremist arguement here.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: Amorphus
However, I'd also like to point out that we should not throw morality out either. God never said THOU SHALT USE THEOCRACY, but he did say homosexuality was an abomination in his eyes.

Trust me on this one: God can do His own dirty work. If people want to do sinful things, let 'em answer to a higher power. Making it illegal isn't going to save anybody, it's just wasting a whole lot of time and money.

That's true. Further, the bible I believe says not to judge others. It's not your role, since you're not going to get it right anyway and only God can make that decision.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh yeah I forgot. Since I don't like violent movies I'm going to move for a constitutional ban on movies that are anything more than PG13. Video games? Waste of time. I think I'll ban them. People who drive black cars? Bad luck. Ban. Holding hands? Bad. Ban. I also don't like interracial marriages. I will see them banned.

Good thing we're being rational and down to earth, no extremist arguement here.

My argument is perfectly analogous, unless you can indicate how it's not. In both cases people are trying to infringe on others' harmless activities.

 

[Deus3344]

GOD does not change but MAN does and hence his methods do.

So does that mean that man has power over god, to force him to change his 'methods'?

God doesn't seem so powerfull now that man can force him to change his 'methods'.

I disagree with homosexual marriages not for any religious reasons but becuase I feel its harmfull to our society and the government has a duty to protect our society. It can be said that homosexuality is a crime against evolution its self, since they do not contribute to our gene pool and inhibit our evolution.

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Amorphus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Perhaps one day I'll come upon a good reason why legally gays cannot marry. I keep throwing this comment out here, but I've yet to hear it, so I guess it's bigotry, ignorance, homophobia, as I mentioned in another thread, that's keeping people from supporting the legal act of marriage for gays.

Unless you view homosexuality as sin and abomination, in which case it is responsibility and morality which keeps me from supporting such a thing.

You should not be imposing your religious beliefs on the law of the land; separation of church and state.

I think it wrong, im not gonna go out and campaign against gay marriages or try and convince people that gays are evil and need to die, but if a vote comes up I will support a ban on gay marriages.

Again, you're trying to impose your morals on people and frankly it's none of your business. They are not hurting anybody. This isn't a law trying to endorse pedophilia, but something between two consenting adults who both will benefit from it.

Yea, I'm using my moral judgement to help the government in its job to ensure the well-being of this country. This country ,as well as this world, is already well on its way down a horrible spiral of immorality and decadence. Other people call it ridiculous but I can see a correlation between homosexuality and things such as pedophilia and other sexually deviant acts that used to be considered unthinkable and are slowly shifting into the 'it's ok' category (does not apply to pedophilia obviously).

You give an inch and they take a foot.

 

[StageLeft]

Yea, I'm using my moral judgement to help the government in its job to ensure the well-being of this country. This country ,as well as this world, is already well on its way down a horrible spiral of immorality and decadence.

Then admittedly you are trying to use the government to impose your morals. Geeze, it will really be hard for you to argue against the yogic flyers when they gain a majority government and tell everybody that they can't eat anything but M&Ms and diet pepsi won't it? Afterall they're doing it for "the well-being of this country". You talk of the slippery slope but you've greased your feel up and are willingly sliding down it yourself.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Deus3344

GOD does not change but MAN does and hence his methods do.

So does that mean that man has power over god, to force him to change his 'methods'?

God doesn't seem so powerfull now that man can force him to change his 'methods'.

I disagree with homosexual marriages not for any religious reasons but becuase I feel its harmfull to our society and the government has a duty to protect our society. It can be said that homosexuality is a crime against evolution its self, since they do not contribute to our gene pool and inhibit our evolution.

hahahaha

oh your serious.

no, that does NOT mean that man has power over god. it's not BECAUSE man has power over god that he changes his methods.

ok, let me use an analogy, as my child grows from infancy to toddlerhood to childhood to teenage years, guess what my METHODS change, is this because my child has POWER over me and is forcing me to change my ways?? NO, i change my methods because it's BEST FOR THE CHILD.

why would god be any different. his changing of methods PROVES his power not disproves it.

 

[PlatinumGold]

morality has no place in government, didn't we learn ANYTHING from the inquisitions. didn't indulgences, and burning witches at the stake, and KKK teach us ANYTHING about the fallibility of man??

Power corrupts absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY. the worst power you can give any government is the right to decide what YOUR morality should be.

governments are about protecting peoples rights NOT their moralities.

 

[StageLeft]

It can be said that homosexuality is a crime against evolution its self, since they do not contribute to our gene pool and inhibit our evolution.

Yeah, that is true and a good point. I am going to agree with you on it, and while we're at it I think we should start putting to death anybody with bad genes such as heart disease or cancer in the family. Also, if you have down's syndrome you are going to get put to sleep when you're born. Proven lack of longevity in your family? Why not just take out your entire family tree?

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Oh yeah I forgot. Since I don't like violent movies I'm going to move for a constitutional ban on movies that are anything more than PG13. Video games? Waste of time. I think I'll ban them. People who drive black cars? Bad luck. Ban. Holding hands? Bad. Ban. I also don't like interracial marriages. I will see them banned.

Good thing we're being rational and down to earth, no extremist arguement here.

Skoorbs analogies are perfectly rational.

Originally posted by: Skoorb

It can be said that homosexuality is a crime against evolution its self, since they do not contribute to our gene pool and inhibit our evolution.

Yeah, that is true and a good point. I am going to agree with you on it, and while we're at it I think we should start putting to death anybody with bad genes such as heart disease or cancer in the family. Also, if you have down's syndrome you are going to get put to sleep when you're born. Proven lack of longevity in your family? Why not just take out your entire family tree?

I guess people who cannot procreate (sterile) shouldn't be allowed to get married either?

 

[PlatinumGold]

oh ya

the bible does have strong words for men that spill their "seed".

guess all of ATOT won't be going to heaven after all.

let's make a constitutional amendment banning masturbation.

guess all of ATOT will end up in jail too.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Damn Christians think they have a monopoly on 'marriage'.