Why christians should NOT support the ban on gay marriages.

[Deus3344]

hahahaha

oh your serious.

no, that does NOT mean that man has power over god. it's not BECAUSE man has power over god that he changes his methods.

ok, let me use an analogy, as my child grows from infancy to toddlerhood to childhood to teenage years, guess what my METHODS change, is this because my child has POWER over me and is forcing me to change my ways?? NO, i change my methods because it's BEST FOR THE CHILD.

why would god be any different. his changing of methods PROVES his power not disproves it.

So a parent that tells their child they can't have a certain toy over and over again but the child keeps whining so the parent gives in. The child doesn't have power over the parent?

Man is better equivalent to a whinny child. "I don't like this rule so I just think I won't follow it anymore"

Also who interprets Gods new methods? The church? Are they talking to God? Quick whats Gods cell number so I can chat with him. I don't think I have seen a prophet come down since Mohammed so I'm wondering who thought of these methods.

Also it can be argued that man really hasn't changed, since we still have the same problems now that we had then. So why have Gods methods changed again? Im sorry but the logic that God changes his methods for Man doesn't hold. God is an absolute power he is static unchanging. If anything MAN should bend for Gods will and the fact that man doesn't should say something.


Also when I say homosexuals aren't contributing to the gene pool I really mean they aren't reproducing. They are not willing to reproduce. A person with downs syndrome is innocent since it was a genetic mistake there is nothing they could do about it. A gay person has the ability and just isn't using it. Its not about good genes or bad genes its about using the ability you were born with.

 

[StageLeft]

Also when I say homosexuals aren't contributing to the gene pool I really mean they aren't reproducing. They are not willing to reproduce. A person with downs syndrome is innocent since it was a genetic mistake there is nothing they could do about it. A gay person has the ability and just isn't using it. Its not about good genes or bad genes its about using the ability you were born with.

It's arguable to be a genetic mistake that somebody is gay and that "there is nothing they could do about it". BTW gays do adopt children, and statistically make very competent parents. Heck, given how many are in society they're probably helping society out more than you think by not cranking out kids. You have something against gays marrying but not some 90 IQ hicks pumping out half a dozen trailer trash kids. Which is worse for the country?

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
oh ya

the bible does have strong words for men that spill their "seed".

guess all of ATOT won't be going to heaven after all.

let's make a constitutional amendment banning masturbation.

guess all of ATOT will end up in jail too.

actually that's about something completely different.

so quit lying, the ONLY reason you are objecting is because you are a HOMOPHOBE

the best way to ignore a thoughtfull intelegent position is to irationaly call those who disagree with you names.

IF you hold that to be true than you have NO reason to think that what the government does will impact that.

It's putting a government stamp of approval on some thing that most Americans agree is an immoral sexual act.

I don't think that adulterers should be treated any differently than homosexuals.

 

[PlatinumGold]

I don't think that adulterers should be treated any differently than homosexuals.

then why don't you call for a constitutional amendment banning adultery

 

[StageLeft]

I don't think that adulterers should be treated any differently than homosexuals.

Considering that MORE Americans will agree that adultery is worse than homophobia and that MORE people engage in it, why are we not throwing these people in jail or punishing them in some way? Maybe no marriage ever again if you cheated on your first spouse?

 

[bleeb]

The question to ask here is: What Would Jesus Do? CHRISTians are based on Christ as the center of the religion. Therefore, we should try to adopt the type of stance he would take on this issue based upon the things he has said, done throughout his ministry.

 

[xchangx]

Ok, first of all lets break things down a bit.

Wether you believe in Creation or Evolution, males and females were created/adapted to reproduce together. Right? I mean, m&m/f&f can't reproduce naturally and by the theory of the survival of the fittest, they are the weak ones.

Second,

The problem is that most Christians try to force their beliefs on others. This is wrong.

God doesn't want His children to be selfish right? The reason we "force" our beliefs on others is because we don't want them to spend eternity in hell. I will admit there are extremes.

Third,
I believe the reason the divorce rate is so high is because the meaning of marriage has diminished. If gays are allowed to get married, what next? Marriage to animals? Why should we care what people do in the privacy of their own homes?

Fourth,

Who cares if Bush bans gay marriages? Californian gays will get married anyway. None of the political figures care.

I can't remember the rest I wanted to say, but that will do for now.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: bleeb
The question to ask here is: What Would Jesus Do? CHRISTians are based on Christ as the center of the religion. Therefore, we should try to adopt the type of stance he would take on this issue based upon the things he has said, done throughout his ministry.

i believe christ said, render unto ceaser . . .

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: xchangx
Ok, first of all lets break things down a bit.

Wether you believe in Creation or Evolution, males and females were created/adapted to reproduce together. Right? I mean, m&m/f&f can't reproduce naturally and by the theory of the survival of the fittest, they are the weak ones.

Second,

The problem is that most Christians try to force their beliefs on others. This is wrong.

God doesn't want His children to be selfish right? The reason we "force" our beliefs on others is because we don't want them to spend eternity in hell. I will admit there are extremes.

Third,
I believe the reason the divorce rate is so high is because the meaning of marriage has diminished. If gays are allowed to get married, what next? Marriage to animals? Why should we care what people do in the privacy of their own homes?

Fourth,

Who cares if Bush bans gay marriages? Californian gays will get married anyway. None of the political figures care.

I can't remember the rest I wanted to say, but that will do for now.

1. marriage is not about procreation

2. if god wanted US as christians to "force" our good beliefs on others, YTF didn't he just force it on us to start off with?? OMFG i completely forgot about free will didn't i. well, ok i didn't but did you?

3. marriage ends in divorce because NOTHING the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, ONLY god can do that.

4. do you have NO idea what it means to AMEND the constitution?

 

[AznMaverick]

i'm christian, i'm for a ban.

 

[Crypticburn]

EDIT:

Crypticburn

 

[LordMagnusKain]

then why don't you call for a constitutional amendment banning adultery

you have to progress twards a moral society slowly; right now we're just trying to keep from loosing ground to the camp that says that there should be no such thing as morality.

Considering that MORE Americans will agree that adultery is worse than homophobia

saying that homosexual sex, and extra-marital heterosexual sex, are immoral is not judging anyone, is not being homophobic, it's just standing up for morality.

why are we not throwing these people in jail or punishing them in some way?

because non-violent offenses shouldn't garner jail time.

The question to ask here is: What Would Jesus Do?

what he did when he was here was speak out against the hypocrisy of the establishment, spend time with the 'sinners' that society looked down on, and gave his time and wisdom to those who where repressed.

my position i rarely asked of me, and always ignored when i set it up; Zealot's prefer to focus on how i belive homosexual sex to be immoral than thoughtfully moderate solutions.

 

[StageLeft]

because non-violent offenses shouldn't garner jail time.

Tell that to a thief

Anyway Platinum gold is right about how severe it is to ammend the constitution. And for something like this? Sad.

you have to progress twards a moral society slowly; right now we're just trying to keep from loosing ground to the camp that says that there should be no such thing as morality.

What morality? What are you basing your morality on? The bible? What about people who don't believe in the bible? What about people of other religions? What about separation of church and state? What about when the yogic flyers take over and force people to eat M&Ms and diet pepsi for all meals, since their moral code says that it's a good idea?

Government cannot and should not breed morality in its populous, especially if it doesn't even have a basic moral code written anywhere. Bible you say? Oh, well let's forget separation of church and state altogether.

 

[xchangx]

3. marriage ends in divorce because NOTHING the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, ONLY god can do that.

4. do you have NO idea what it means to AMEND the constitution?

True, nothing the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, however, because of the world and issues like this, Brittany Spears, etc.. the meaning of marriage is falling.


Once again even if Bush amands the constitution, people will rebel, however since a lot of citizens and in power will disagree with the constitution. They get fired, the citizens elect another political power that will be against the amendment.

I'm not a homophobe and I applaude Bush's amendment.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: xchangx

3. marriage ends in divorce because NOTHING the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, ONLY god can do that.

4. do you have NO idea what it means to AMEND the constitution?

True, nothing the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, however, because of the world and issues like this, Brittany Spears, etc.. the meaning of marriage is falling.


Once again even if Bush amands the constitution, people will rebel, however since a lot of citizens and in power will disagree with the constitution. They get fired, the citizens elect another political power that will be against the amendment.

I'm not a homophobe and I applaude Bush's amendment.

britney spears?? OMG are you reaching. so you blame Britney SPEARS on peoples inability to stay commited to each other??

 

[StageLeft]

True, nothing the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, however, because of the world and issues like this, Brittany Spears, etc.. the meaning of marriage is falling.

Gay marriages are not going to decrease the seriousness of marriage in a straight person's eyes.

 

[Trevelyan]

You know, I really despire posting in these threads because I've noticed that ATOT people like to think they are experts on every topic. What many fail to realize is that what they have seen in their life is not neccessarily a reflection of how things really are.

PlatinumGold, let me start out by saying that I disagree with your view on Christianity, God, and homosexuality. I think homosexuality is wrong, and it violates the sanctity of marriage. I have nothing against people who practice homosexuality, but I believe that it is a choice. I also belive that it is a sin. Whether or not you agree with me is your own agenda. You're not going to change my mind on this issues, because I too have read on the issue and educated myself. I've read not only the Old Testament condemnation of homosexuality that many people here like to nullify by saying its outdated, or up for interpretation, but also the New Testament condemnation. I can't honestly tell myself I am a Christian and then just say that maybe the New Testament teachings were not meant for us to follow.

But, I will say this to you PlatinumGold. I do NOT appreciate your attacks on Christianity. I am glad that you consider yourself a Christian, and that you have a masters in theology. Does this mean I am more likely to agree with you, or that somehow your views hold more merit now?

No. They are still your personal views. I'm glad that you've educated yourself. However, I still think you are absolutely wrong.

I also do not appreciate you labeling every Christian who does not support gay marriages as "homophobic". Such gross generalizations and blatant attacks are not only unfounded, but also undesired and not fitting for someone who claims to have an understanding of Christianity and religion in general.

Perhaps a better use of your time would be to study more about society and how morality does indeed play a large role in our world.

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
morality has no place in government, didn't we learn ANYTHING from the inquisitions. didn't indulgences, and burning witches at the stake, and KKK teach us ANYTHING about the fallibility of man??

Interesting, I thought you had a degree in theology, not government or politics.

Your arguement is flawed, not because the KKK and with burnings weren't terrible, but because somehow you're saying that morality and human rights are not related. If our country truly acted in the best interests of only its citizens, with no basis in morality, then there would be more war, more racism and more hate, not less.

I don't hate homosexuals. I love them as much as I love eveyrone else in the world, but don't think for a minute that that means I will abandon my beliefs simply because someone typed in a forum that they have a degree in theology and are a Christian and feel that I'M wrong. You can attack me all day if you have that kind of time, but it won't make a difference in the world to me unless you can point out a passage in the Bible where God blesses homosexual marriage.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
You know, I really despire posting in these threads because I've noticed that ATOT people like to think they are experts on every topic. What many fail to realize is that what they have seen in their life is not neccessarily a reflection of how things really are.

PlatinumGold, let me start out by saying that I disagree with your view on Christianity, God, and homosexuality. I think homosexuality is wrong, and it violates the sanctity of marriage. I have nothing against people who practice homosexuality, but I believe that it is a choice. I also belive that it is a sin. Whether or not you agree with me is your own agenda. You're not going to change my mind on this issues, because I too have read on the issue and educated myself. I've read not only the Old Testament condemnation of homosexuality that many people here like to nullify by saying its outdated, or up for interpretation, but also the New Testament condemnation. I can't honestly tell myself I am a Christian and then just say that maybe the New Testament teachings were not meant for us to follow.

But, I will say this to you PlatinumGold. I do NOT appreciate your attacks on Christianity. I am glad that you consider yourself a Christian, and that you have a masters in theology. Does this mean I am more likely to agree with you, or that somehow your views hold more merit now?

No. They are still your personal views. I'm glad that you've educated yourself. However, I still think you are absolutely wrong.

I also do not appreciate you labeling every Christian who does not support gay marriages as "homophobic". Such gross generalizations and blatant attacks are not only unfounded, but also undesired and not fitting for someone who claims to have an understanding of Christianity and religion in general.

Perhaps a better use of your time would be to study more about society and how morality does indeed play a large role in our world.

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
morality has no place in government, didn't we learn ANYTHING from the inquisitions. didn't indulgences, and burning witches at the stake, and KKK teach us ANYTHING about the fallibility of man??

Interesting, I thought you had a degree in theology, not government or politics.

Your arguement is flawed, not because the KKK and with burnings weren't terrible, but because somehow you're saying that morality and human rights are not related. If our country truly acted in the best interests of only its citizens, with no basis in morality, then there would be more war, more racism and more hate, not less.

I don't hate homosexuals. I love them as much as I love eveyrone else in the world, but don't think for a minute that that means I will abandon my beliefs simply because someone typed in a forum that they have a degree in theology and are a Christian and feel that I'M wrong. You can attack me all day if you have that kind of time, but it won't make a difference in the world to me unless you can point out a passage in the Bible where God blesses homosexual marriage.

really?? morality (christianity) was the cause of more wars than anything else.

don't use the excuse that they weren't true christians. THAT'S the point. POWER CORRUPTS . . .

the reason to keep church and state apart is NOT to protect us from the state but to protect us from the CHURCH.

if history has shown us ANYTHING it's that Churches given ALWAYS abuse it.

 

[PlatinumGold]

But, I will say this to you PlatinumGold. I do NOT appreciate your attacks on Christianity. I am glad that you consider yourself a Christian, and that you have a masters in theology. Does this mean I am more likely to agree with you, or that somehow your views hold more merit now?

i never attacked christianity, i attack people that don't understand christianity, primarily that christianity is a one on one thing with christ and it is NOT something that can be legislated.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

What morality?

The consensus morality, such is why we have a democracy, to do otherwise is to say their should be no morality.

What are you basing your morality on?

The same thing as the rest of the majority that knows homosexual sex and out-of-marriage sex to be immoral.

The bible?

No one is forcing anyone else to BE a Christian, but we sure arn't going agree with laws that are against what we know to be right.

What about people who don't believe in the bible?What about people of other religions?

we all have SOME basis of morality, plenty of people who are agnostic or atheistic still know extra-marital sex to be immoral; If we have an honest disagreement with what is societally destructive we vote on it.

What about separation of church and state?

I don't see as how a religion is being established? Anti-moralists like to re-word separation of church and state into separation of morality and law.

What about when the logic flyers take over and force people to eat M&Ms and diet pepsi for all meals, since their moral code says that it's a good idea?

what about when a-moralists decide that the next repressed group are man-boy lovers? thoughtfully moderation is called for on both sides.

Government cannot and should not breed morality in its populous, especially if it doesn't even have a basic moral code written anywhere.

consensus should rule when it comes to matters of law.

Bible you say?

The heart of each person should vote elected representatives to do in government what they themselves would want.

Oh, well let's forget separation of church and state altogether.

no church is trying to keep the government from doing the will of the pupation.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold


1. marriage is not about procreation

2. if god wanted US as christians to "force" our good beliefs on others, YTF didn't he just force it on us to start off with?? OMFG i completely forgot about free will didn't i. well, ok i didn't but did you?

3. marriage ends in divorce because NOTHING the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, ONLY god can do that.

1. Sex is a part of marriage, and in the Bible God repeatedly tells us to respect the sanctity of sex, and to not engage in homosexuality and sleeping with animals.

2. Using the word "force" is a misnomer, since apparently to "force" your beliefs on someone means to tell them about it, or at least that's what you would believe with how it is used here. Maybe you should brush up on the Bible... specifically in regards to what is know as the "great commission":

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach
the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16:15, KJV

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine."
2 Timothy 4:2, KJV

So you see, God tells us over and over to spread the word to everyone in the world. So whenever someone tells me that God didn't intend for Christians to "force" their beliefs on people, I can't say I agree. BUT, just to clarify, YES, actually forcing your beliefs on someone is definately NOT what God intended, but then people need to understand that passionate testimony, even if you are against it and even if it irritates you, that is STILL NOT FORCING IT ON YOU.

3. I would disagree with this point too... God blesses nations that are holy in His eyes, which is one of the reasons I am for supporting Israel.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Your arguement is flawed, not because the KKK and with burnings weren't terrible, but because somehow you're saying that morality and human rights are not related. If our country truly acted in the best interests of only its citizens, with no basis in morality, then there would be more war, more racism and more hate, not less.

we have many laws based on morality; Not the least of which are the equal opportunity laws and anti-slavery laws.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold


really?? morality (christianity) was the cause of more wars than anything else.

don't use the excuse that they weren't true christians. THAT'S the point. POWER CORRUPTS . . .

the reason to keep church and state apart is NOT to protect us from the state but to protect us from the CHURCH.

if history has shown us ANYTHING it's that Churches given ALWAYS abuse it.

No doubt that power corrupts, but I think I am gonna go ahead and use the excuse that they weren't true Christians, because that's most likely true.

You really need to understand that morality and Christianity are more often EXCUSES for wars, rather than a true cause. Even so-called religious wars were fought for more political motives, but abused religion to get the masses to support it.

Church and community are important parts of a healthy spiritual relationship with God... regardless of your views on religion, interaction with fellow Christians is an important part, and is blessed by God in the New Testament many times.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold


1. marriage is not about procreation

2. if god wanted US as christians to "force" our good beliefs on others, YTF didn't he just force it on us to start off with?? OMFG i completely forgot about free will didn't i. well, ok i didn't but did you?

3. marriage ends in divorce because NOTHING the law decrees can change how people deal with each other, ONLY god can do that.

1. Sex is a part of marriage, and in the Bible God repeatedly tells us to respect the sanctity of sex, and to not engage in homosexuality and sleeping with animals.

2. Using the word "force" is a misnomer, since apparently to "force" your beliefs on someone means to tell them about it, or at least that's what you would believe with how it is used here. Maybe you should brush up on the Bible... specifically in regards to what is know as the "great commission":

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach
the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16:15, KJV

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine."
2 Timothy 4:2, KJV

So you see, God tells us over and over to spread the word to everyone in the world. So whenever someone tells me that God didn't intend for Christians to "force" their beliefs on people, I can't say I agree. BUT, just to clarify, YES, actually forcing your beliefs on someone is definately NOT what God intended, but then people need to understand that passionate testimony, even if you are against it and even if it irritates you, that is STILL NOT FORCING IT ON YOU.

3. I would disagree with this point too... God blesses nations that are holy in His eyes, which is one of the reasons I am for supporting Israel.

1. the bible also speaks in extremely strong words with regards to spilling ones "seed"

2. you apparently missed all my posts regarding WITNESSING. i believe in WITNESSING, matter of fact it is my position that using law to enforce things that SHOULD be spread via witnessing is just a cheap excuse NOT to witness. God desires the one on one.

3. Israel is no longer holy in his eyes, isreal was chosen by god to serve a function, they served that function and are now no different in gods eyes than any other political structure.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Your arguement is flawed, not because the KKK and with burnings weren't terrible, but because somehow you're saying that morality and human rights are not related. If our country truly acted in the best interests of only its citizens, with no basis in morality, then there would be more war, more racism and more hate, not less.

we have many laws based on morality; Not the least of which are the equal opportunity laws and anti-slavery laws.

I agree... and I'm saying these laws based on morality are very important.