Why do Conservatives obsess at inflating the military budget at every opportunity?

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Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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No, you didn't.

You're a liar. A fraud. And a storyteller. Your lies and prevarications are well documented across this, and many other boards. Don't make us post them. Please. They are literally all over the internet, from these forums, to Bodybuilding.com, to others. People with actual military service in the many different units you claim to be in have refuted you, outed you, and exposed you.

How you continue to post these stories, when the truth is now known, is baffling, but that's why I assume you need some sort of help.

This is not an attack/"flame" on you, but when someone exaggerates or outright lies about something as important as military service, especially to try and win internet debates, they need to be exposed. And for the sake of the people unacquainted with this sorry episode, so they are not fooled into taking what you say at face value.

It should be noted that your respons is an outright attack, it has nothing to do with the topic, it is an outright personal attack on my person.

Every songle thing in you post is directed towards me and no tto the topic.

IOW, a callout and a trolling of me, i don't usualy report this behaviour in fact i have never done so but i'm tired of it being the other way around where you report me fof my response.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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When someone is lying about military service, and those lies can be shown/followed up on, and that person is lying about specific military service publically, then it's the right of everyone who is engaged by this person to know the truth.

You made a bed of lies, and now must lay in it. That's not flaming. That's not an insult. People have the right to know the truth.

Desend yourself anyway you want.

And yet i am mod verified....

No, you are not.

Perknose
Forum Director



Sucks to be you.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
2 cuts of $400B would mean the military budget would be close to 0 since the peak of US military spending on the war on terror was close to ~$800+B.
As you can see from the chart (Craig234 posted) above, the military budget was in the $300-400B range apart from the Vietnam/Reagan/WOT spending. GWB basically doubled military spending during his watch.

You're quoting an annual figure.

Budget increases and cuts are customarily reported in a ten year amount. I.e., $80 b per yr cut over 10 yrs.

Fern
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
When someone is lying about military service, and those lies can be shown/followed up on, and that person is lying about specific military service publically, then it's the right of everyone who is engaged by this person to know the truth.

You made a bed of lies, and now must lay in it. That's not flaming. That's not an insult. People have the right to know the truth.

Desend yourself anyway you want.

YOU do not get the point, if dosn't matter waht you say, i have been verified by half a dozen monds and what you think matters not at all.

It is irrelevant to the poing to the thread and it's a personal attack,

I suspect you got a warning last time, now it's twice.....

Oh and what you think is less than i could give twe shits about..

Cheeky mokey of a bastars.

You most certainly have not.

Perknose
Forum Director
 
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Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,860
44
91
YOU do not get the point, if dosn't matter waht you say, i have been verified by half a dozen monds and what you think matters not at all.

It is irrelevant to the poing to the thread and it's a personal attack,

I suspect you got a warning last time, now it's twice.....

Oh and what you think is less than i could give twe shits about..

Cheeky mokey of a bastars.

You have have been shown to be lying about military service across this and many other boards.
That's not a personal attack. That's a statement of truth. No one has warned me or contacted me, as I've done nothing wrong here but point out your lies, which are disgusting.

You should be ashamed.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
And the Discussion Club begins it's decent into finger pointing and denigration.

Why did you descend into finger pointing and denigration when you could have simply stated how you disagree. I began my post with my personal opinion that we owe American conservatives some gratitude for the insurance their insanity buys us from the greater insanity of others. It is an ancient saw and well known psychological fact that it takes one to know one. You are simply allowing yourself to be insulted by what I see is reality. Why would you do that? If you think I am wrong you can challenge my point of view with your own reasoning. What I did is claim that demonization of the other creates monsters both of the imagination and in reality as it is monstrous to demonize others, in my opinion. This is a scientifically established conservative trait and sure enough, I have only to point to its reality and you demonize me. If you do not think conservatives are prone to fear of others and do not make them out to be monsters then argue that instead of doing it to me.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,281
9,365
146
One mod has affirmed it.

This is a personal attck, Charles have made it celar tht i i do not have the right to desend myself.

No mod here has ever independently, factually "affirmed" your identity as SAS.

Perknose
Forum Director
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81


Article with lots of good info on the "staggering" defense spending:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...s-to-know-about-the-defense-budget-in-charts/

You are being deliberately dishonest by posting that. You know damn well that defense spending as a % of GDP is near the lowest it's ever been post WWII. I've called you out on this several times already.

Feel free to post counterarguing evidence if you wish. Him putting up a graph is not inherently dishonest. --ck

My response:
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com...81680_946cs_30f_20th_Century_Defense_Spending
 
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bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
3,894
162
106
No mod here has ever independently, factually "affirmed" your identity as SAS.

Perknose
Forum Director

Just as well because he's made some surprising claims in this 2 threads:
THis Girls gets things done
Rule britannia

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31475552&postcount=29
30-06 sniper rifle, locked sight and pipe based correction setting on 3km target, i do 20mm on half a mile, the number of shots is irrelevant, i've never missed and haven't kept count over the decades.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32916499&postcount=149
yeah, thing is, i'm 6'1 and my arms are bigger than my girlfriends waist.

It's not fat either, i'm just REALLY big, you kinda have to be to lift 600 lbs, squat 530 and bench 480.

I'm just real fucking big.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32917740&postcount=197
....
Never did any such thing, there are people who believe that you can actually hit a target every time with a snubnose .38, but since he was American everyone believed it, i can hit a quarter half a mile away with a proper sniper rifle that i sighted, how that is less believable i don't know, but i can, i can also hit a an a4 sheet two miles away with an A70.
...

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32917753&postcount=198
Son, those are decorations, not stars, Stars are for Generals.

And i have never, EVER been a member of any army.

SAS is RAF, i was in the Airforce.

------------
It looks like he's deleted his sig which was from an Irish song. No doubt after his false exploits in the elite special forces was exposed.

A proud and youthful chevalier,
A highland lion of cheerful mien,
A slashing blade, a flashing shield,
Fighting foremost in the field.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,527
136
You are being deliberately dishonest by posting that. You know damn well that defense spending as a % of GDP is near the lowest it's ever been post WWII. I've called you out on this several times already.

I agree that providing defense spending as a percentage of GDP gives important context but it isn't the whole story.

Most government spending needs grow with a growing population. You need more highways, more food stamps, more whatever as you have more people. There's no particular reason to think that we need to spend more money on our military as our population/economy grows so in this case spending in absolute dollars is a bit more relevant than it usually is.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
I don't know why he keeps posting that story. it has been refuted time and time again.

well he didn't say mod's HERE have "affirmed" it. so i will give him that.

but I do not believe him for a instant.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
I see this has turned into a big mess of personal attacks and callouts. Normally the sorts of attacks directed at John would be considered unacceptable, but there's a special circumstance here is in that he has made specific claims about military service that have apparently come up before and been refuted.

John, if you want to provide me with some information in private to corroborate your service I would be glad to vouch for you if it appears legitimate. Otherwise, the best course of action here is for you to refrain from such claims.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
It's the same for government or business, it's about the desire for the 'power' of a larger budget.

The idea of using a budgeted amount wastefully in order to protect the 'need' for at least that amount in the next budget is very old.

I suspect anyone who has dealt with organizational budgets has seen some of that.

But that's the cornerstone of what would appear to be a Conservatives biggest concern; that allowing an organization to get too big and bloated leads to precisely this kind of outcome. Hence why I find it difficult to reconcile why conservatives from Reagan to Bush to Romney always want to write our big and bloated military a blank check.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
I see this has turned into a big mess of personal attacks and callouts. Normally the sorts of attacks directed at John would be considered unacceptable, but there's a special circumstance here is in that he has made specific claims about military service that have apparently come up before and been refuted.

John, if you want to provide me with some information in private to corroborate your service I would be glad to vouch for you if it appears legitimate. Otherwise, the best course of action here is for you to refrain from such claims.

Be prepared for a crappy tat that is the sole proof of his claims.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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But that's the cornerstone of what would appear to be a Conservatives biggest concern; that allowing an organization to get too big and bloated leads to precisely this kind of outcome. Hence why I find it difficult to reconcile why conservatives from Reagan to Bush to Romney always want to write our big and bloated military a blank check.

Here's the deal.

That's how organizations tend to work at a minimum. Now there's great variation - there are organizations with a lot less 'fat', and there are organizations that are largely fine with 'fat' and have far more. In my opinion, for example, ask anyone who has experience with some big private corporate firms, from Accenture to Blackwater/Xe, who tend to get more people than needed on things and/or inflated compensation for things and/or unnecessary missions.

You don't see the right-wing say a lot about the inflated costs of 'privatized' activities, where activities done by more efficient, inexpensive government employees are shifted to outsourced, private operations that cost a lot more - completely coincidentally, giving tax dollars to typically their donors. Republicans are often and largely behind such move - they sell them politically by demonizing 'wasteful, inefficient government' because people fall for that attack, and often replace it with much more wasteful private alternatives.

For one example, you can just look to some of the contracting in Iraq, where there were 'cost plus, often no bid contracts set up where companies were incented to do things like if a truck got a flat tire, abandon it and buy a new truck, because the government would pay for a new truck plus some more profit. Contractors hired large numbers of US special forces and military people for far more than they were paid by the governmnet, turning around and billing the governmnet far more for their services.

For another example, recall the Bush adminstration's second highest priority their first term (after the tax cuts for the rich), the Medicare Part D drug benefit to benefit seniors. They were able to get some political benefit from it as supporting their claim Bush was a 'compassionate conservative' and it did help some seniors - though its 'doughnut' design made many seniors actually pay more - but the key provision in it was one prohibitijng the government from negotiating prices, so they had to pay full price.

That made the cost to the taxpayers hundreds of billions more of pure handout to the drug companies; and the drug companies were Repblicans' #1 donor industry.

That is basically theft from the American people - donate to the Republicans and get handed billions of dollars of tax money for nothing.

So the Republicans have a big sales pitch about how much they hate waste, with lots of unrealistic and often false criticisms of the government people that justify their creating more wasteful programs that let them shift tax dollars to their political allies. In the meantime, groups who are not their allies can be slashed to the bone - see the effects of the sequester on 'ordinary Americans'.

The military spending often fits into the same agenda - though that's a bi-partisan issue, politicians of both parties try to protect that money for their districts.

It's just that Democrats are a lot more willing to make larger, broader cuts to military spending, knowing the money can help people more in other areas, than Republicans.

Look at this leaker days ago - working for a military contracter, Booz Allen Hamilton who gets 98% of its revenue from government contracts - he's a high school dropout GED person, 29, who had been a security guard for the NSA, who was making $122,000 or more suddenly. It's just an example of the inflated 'waste' they will defend, where analysts will say that our explosion of 'security spending' in the last decade was largely wasteful that made a lot of donors rich.

The confusion you mention is that you are noticing the difference between what Republican say and what they do. They have a sales pitch about 'fiscal conservatism' and hating deficits and hating government waste that has gotten them votes for a very long time, while especially since Reagan, they have gotten away with saying those things while then shooting up our deficit spending money on largely things that benefit them politically - while often successfully attacking Democrats for being the people 'wasting money'.

If you listen to what they say, it's not going to explain a lot of what they do. If you view that as a sales pitch they hide behind and they have a different agenda, it makes sense.

They really do want to cut back a lot of government - because they support the wealthy, and to the extent that democratically elected government represents the people and helps makde sure everyone gets a share of our economy, they can simply be against government doing that, slashing spending on the people because that's all money that could be going to the wealthy. So a safety net, education, anti-poverty programs and so on are demonized. Medicare for citizens' healthcare is demonized as 'socialized medicine'.

Or at least it was as long as they could - now that that would hurt them politically, they claim to love Medicare, but propose programs to 'save' Medicare that would destroy it, replacing the system with vouchers, cutting a third of the spending just to start and who knows how much more later, that would shift all that money into our terribly inefficitent and expensive private insurance industry

Organizations always have some 'waste' and 'inefficiency'. You can demonize even a little of that by cherry-picking - why, LOOK at that IRS video that they spent $16,000 to make that was a morale booster for employees! The horror of wasted tax dollars! Yet when billions and billions are misspent on programs for donors, that's ok.

That's largely the game for the politicians - demonize the spending for the people they wanto to take money form, and sell or hide the spending they want to do (for example, defense spending that's not needed will be 'sold' as all that money being critical for our defense from all the enemies who would conquer us, while losing tens of billions in Iraq isn't sold, it's just kept as quiet as possible.) The Medicare drug benefit was hyped as helping seniors more than it did, while the drug company giveaway was kept as quiet as possible (nevermind that weeks after its passage, the Republicans congressman who led the passage quit Congress to become head of drug company lobbying for $2 million a year).

Republicans will put a huge amount of effort into their 'branding' as people concerned about wasteful spending, because it gets them votes and something to hide their policies behind.

The funny thing is, Republicans will attack Democrats for doing the very thing Republicans do - why, those dirty Democrats don't want to increase education spending for any good reason, they're just trying to bribe the people with that spending to get their votes! How corrupt! You see the same attacks on things like the safety net. Democrats spending on the poor, that's just bribing them for votes!

It's helpful not to listen to what a lot of politicians say - you can find the photo of Paul Ryan wearing an apron at the soup kitchen he forced his way in to pretend he was cleaning a pot, you can hear Mitt Romney express his enormous concern for the poor - and to look at the spending priorities to see what they stand for.

And the phrase 'stand for' really gives them too much credit, like it's some sort of principle when it often is not - it's more who they represent.
 
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brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
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Craig,

That is a lot of text, and most of it was pointing fingers are republicans. That's ok, that's not what I want to pull from your message. One of the things you mentioned was the private contractors in the Iraq war. You seem to have missed the point of the private contractor. It wasn't to channel money into a private organization, or that its more efficient than the government. There was one purpose for this, and this is it:

When it's a private organization, the government doesn't need to disclose the number of deaths. This is a huge issue for continuing the war. If people were dying at 4x the rate they were, how unpopular would have been the Iraq war back home? Very unpopular. Except we did have 4x the amount of deaths in the Iraq war, but the public is unaware because the contractors don't need to disclose the numbers.

To the administration at the time, that was worth the price. Sweep things under the rug. For a cost.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Craig,

That is a lot of text, and most of it was pointing fingers are republicans. That's ok, that's not what I want to pull from your message. One of the things you mentioned was the private contractors in the Iraq war. You seem to have missed the point of the private contractor. It wasn't to channel money into a private organization, or that its more efficient than the government. There was one purpose for this, and this is it:

When it's a private organization, the government doesn't need to disclose the number of deaths. This is a huge issue for continuing the war. If people were dying at 4x the rate they were, how unpopular would have been the Iraq war back home? Very unpopular. Except we did have 4x the amount of deaths in the Iraq war, but the public is unaware because the contractors don't need to disclose the numbers.

To the administration at the time, that was worth the price. Sweep things under the rug. For a cost.

Brandon, I'd agree with you - and add there were more benefits, especially the lack of transparency.

The US military has a lot of regulations and reporting on what they do.

But a contractor who goes into an area, with the same freedom from any accountability under Iraqi law, can do all kinds of things the public can never hear about.

Lessons were learned with the exposure of Mai Lai, and they didn't want a repeat of that bad publicity.

I won't claim to have a long list of specific I can cite about the behavior of the contractors and don't want to demonize them unfairly, but I think this was part of the reason.

There are plenty of abuses well documented - I need to read Jeremy Scahill's book on Blackwater - and Rumsfeld had a whole 'privatize the military agenda' as well.

I am not totally familiar with all his reasons for that - and he had the support of Bush and of course his #1 partner Cheney for it, until Bush changed his position finally - but Rumsfeld and Cheney had a radical agenda for decades they'd waited for a chance to pursue that included a great expansion of presidential powers.

(When both parties wrote the report on Iran-Contra condeming the Reagan administration, Dick Cheney wrote a dissent that it was no problem, for example).

You're right about the sensitivity to 'manage the PR in the war' by keeping US casualties down, which included US forces regularly sending native miliitary into homes first in case there was an ambush waiting. The US military lied about the information it had on things like Iraqi civilian casualties, simply hiding the information showing the human cost.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
I agree that providing defense spending as a percentage of GDP gives important context but it isn't the whole story.

Most government spending needs grow with a growing population. You need more highways, more food stamps, more whatever as you have more people. There's no particular reason to think that we need to spend more money on our military as our population/economy grows so in this case spending in absolute dollars is a bit more relevant than it usually is.

While defense spending doesn't have to scale with GDP or population the way other spending does, you would still expect it to rise somewhat as GDP does. As we become more prosperous I would expect some portion of that money to go into better defense, but likely at less than a 1:1 ratio.

When you look at back defense spending as percent of GDP that's exactly what you see. Spending rises in absolute dollars and steadily decreases as a percent of GDP. In fact it's just about as low as it's been post WWII and that's a good thing. This is in stark contrast with the rest of government which has been growing way above GDP.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com...81680_946cs_30f_20th_Century_Defense_Spending

Of course none of this means that we can't or shouldn't cut of defense spending in absolute dollars, but the idea that we have runaway defense spending is clearly refuted by the facts. Craig knows this and at a minimum is being intellectually dishonest by deliberately excluding the most relevant benchmark.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
The secondary reason: because they equate all military spending with spending needed to protect us from being conquered by Hitler's secret love child tomorrow.

They view cutting any spending as making us vulnerable to being conquered and that anyone in favor of cutting any military spenidng hates America.
Pretty much agree with this. If it's not a commie hiding under the bed it's a turr'ist who wants to kill them because he hates 'murica.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Pretty much agree with this. If it's not a commie hiding under the bed it's a turr'ist who wants to kill them because he hates 'murica.

And to clarify, it's not an issue of claiming there is no 'terrorist threat'. We face some threats from terrorists, murderer, rapists, robbers, all kinds of things.

It's the reflexive assumption that every dollar spent on defense is a dollar needed to keep us from being conquered tomorrow, and the only reason to question is is hating America.
 
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