Why do I want to watercool?

[CDC Mail Guy]

New case (Fractal R4), new motherboard and a Corsair H100i for my new build.

However, none of that matters, other than the H100i. My current HFS is a Noctua NH-D14, and my highest temps on it runningPrime95 was 33 C (according to CPUID Hardware Monitor) https://i.imgur.com/J3VpsoP.jpg

Lowest was 8 C, if that's even possible...

At any rate, after seeing this, I am starting to wonder why I want to watercool if my temps are so low using the Noctua. Other than blocking my RAM slots, is there any benefit?

 

[schmuckley]

More overclocking headroom..
However it seems you don't do that, so...

 

[CDC Mail Guy]

And now I can Thank you for the reply

 

[GreenOrbs]

I would check to see if there isn't something wrong with the temperature sensor. 8 degrees C is like 45F so it shouldn't be possible unless you are living in a refrigerator (30-40F). Cooling below ambient temperature by dissipating heat is thermodynamically impossible (a fan can't cool below what the temp of the room is).

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I would check to see if there isn't something wrong with the temperature sensor. 8 degrees C is like 45F so it shouldn't be possible unless you are living in a refrigerator (30-40F). Cooling below ambient temperature by dissipating heat is thermodynamically impossible (a fan can't cool below what the temp of the room is).

I was going to say that, too . . .

I can't imagine -- even at stock settings (OP doesn't mention overclocking) -- I can't imagine he's only seen temperatures in the 30's C running Prim95.

If he wants to know, he can make his NH-D14 function on par with an H100i. If -- he wants to bother.

But -- before we get into another pros-vs-cons air-vs-water -- we might like to know why he isn't seeing temperatures that would be normal for a stock-clocked processor running Prime95.

 

[DigDog]

watercooling is going teh way of the dodo; it belongs to the era of 1kW systems, but today it's practically useless.

 

[Billb2]

There are three reasons to watercool:
Higher overclocks
Bling
And if you hold to this philosophy:
"Nice? It's the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward for his stroke. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Simply messing...about in boats -- or with boats... In or out of 'em it doesn't matter. Nothing seems to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

 

[BonzaiDuck]

"Higher clocks" -- Sure, but there's at least one big caveat. There is some point where the processor is running at a temperature low enough to reduce the thermally-induced electrical noise. Below that, you don't capture any large reductions in voltage to achieve certain clock speeds.

Instead, you give yourself thermal justification to run up voltages to a point where the processor is slowly degrading at a faster rate.

So you NEED some sufficient and maximally adequate level of cooling. But beyond that, you won't increase your range of clock speeds unless you raise voltage. I would be uncomfortable about anything over a certain rationally-justified voltage level, anyway. And that level seems to correspond with my most comfortable maximum target temperature for the cooling system.

 

[dma0991]

That depends on where you live and your ambient temperature. If its a constant winter, there is zero benefit. Your low ambient temps does not prove that the Noctua was doing any better than watercooling as there is a 25C temperature delta, which is within the expected performance for a Noctua NH-D14.

Would you benefit enough from the Corsair H100i to even bother with the hassle? I think not. If its custom watercooling with a CPU + GPU loop, then it'll be worthwhile. If the lower temp delta doesn't convince you, the lower noise might.

 

[thilanliyan]

Unless you have the computer outside somewhere really cold, those temps are incorrect, as others have pointed out. Use Coretemp to check the temps.

I personally watercool because of the large GPU temp drops (reduced by 20-30C usually for me compared to air cooling), and quietness of the whole comp.

 

[CDC Mail Guy]

I kind of knew that 8 C was way too low, and that my temps should be WAY higher than 33 C at 100% CPU load. I will give coretemp a try, and then use the Corsair H100i anyway as it is already in my new case, installed with Noctua fans. 19 decibles at max should be totally inaudible...like a mouse farting in a warehouse

It should be noted that I am ONLY doing this because the motherboard in my current sig does not have a USB 3 connection on it, and my Antec case does not have USB 3 ports on the front of the case. The Fractal R4 has "vents" on the top....mightas well make use of them

 

[aigomorla]

mmm... if your comparing against an AIO... then i really dont see the need to watercool unless u have space restrictions.

now if ur talking about custom watercooling set, with its bells and whistles... i think most of us do it to net benifit from gpu cooling.

gotta love those temps on a gpu waterblock...
That shows u the min and max value after a full run in unigen where gpu's are loaded at 98% on both cards.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Unless you have the computer outside somewhere really cold, those temps are incorrect, as others have pointed out. Use Coretemp to check the temps.

I personally watercool because of the large GPU temp drops (reduced by 20-30C usually for me compared to air cooling), and quietness of the whole comp.

I give a nod to all your observations. On the noise issue, that's pretty much an enthusiast assumption about other enthusiasts. Of course, if you use bigger radiators, more fans or doubled number of fans in push-pull configurations, then there is potential for higher noise. And you add some pump noise into the mix.

Water-cooling is more efficient -- or more effective -- than air-cooling. It makes a lot of sense for cooling graphics cards in the mix with a CPU.
On the other hand, the power requirements and temperatures of graphics cards using the newer Maxwell chips are lower.

Now looking back at the CPU aspects, there is a range of temperatures provided by water-cooled solutions such that you're probably not generating electrical noise with higher temperatures, and you might primarily reap the benefits only if you want to push voltages higher. It is possible that you don't need or want these benefits if you want to keep voltages at or below a certain level.

Meanwhile, I've seen here some experiments for making single-fan AiO coolers much more effective than what shows in their ratings. I can also see there are a few air coolers that might give those solutions a "run for the money" with some low-tech enhancement.

The main issue may have been raised by the different thermal profile of some processors versus others. A 4790K may clock to 4.6 Ghz and dissipate less than 100W of thermal energy, while an older processor might be clocked to generate 140W of thermal energy. Yet the temperatures on the Haswell chip are higher or the same with a given cooling solution as compared to the chip dissipating a higher wattage. The smaller die-size and lithography of the Haswell means less heat transferred per unit time across a smaller areal size of the die.

So this presents a sort of "decision threshold" for builders and enthusiasts, leaving them to choose heatpipes, AiO water-cooling, or custom water-cooling. The die-shrink of newer processors moves the bar of a cooling requirement closer to AiO and custom-water standards. Heatpipe coolers are less likely to keep up as lithography and die-size decrease. AiO's may improve, but they will also cost more. Their effectiveness can only be improved by users deploying certain case, airflow and noise-reduction strategies. The same approaches may enhance custom-water solutions.

 

[badb0y]

Correct me if I am wrong but H100i and NH-d14 have pretty similar performance.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Correct me if I am wrong but H100i and NH-d14 have pretty similar performance.

Yup.

It's a pretty loosey-goosey method of comparison, but an H110i user with a 2700K processor gave me his cooling results at a certain voltage and approximately equal thermal wattage. My ducted NH-D14 on a 2600K was neck-and-neck with it. There are, of course, things that can be done with an AiO that would improve its performance over the standard installation.

So, whatever improvements you can make to a heatpipe cooler might also be made to an AiO, widening the gap again to what is commonly shown in comparison review statistics.

But the writing seems to be on the wall. Next year, unless I'm wrong, we go from a 22nm to a 14nm lithography. Unless power requirements scale well with the die-shrink, any overclocking will need special cooling attention.

Right now, I'm not betting on heatpipe coolers to do more than just keep up with those imperatives. I may hope they do, but there's only so much you can get from a handful of heatpipes and fins, except the MTBF of a million years.

 

[aigomorla]

The only benifit from going an AIO over straight air is clearance.

You can fit a AIO under almost any height, and attach the radiator in a different location, should the case provide the mounting spot for it.

You can not put a big tower sink in some cases where the PSU is directly over the CPU socket, or you have an optical or some sort.

The only time i look at an AIO is when clearance is limited, otherwise there is MORE things to fail on an AIO vs a straight air heat sink, for marginal gains, if any.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The only benifit from going an AIO over straight air is clearance.

You can fit a AIO under almost any height, and attach the radiator in a different location, should the case provide the mounting spot for it.

You can not put a big tower sink in some cases where the PSU is directly over the CPU socket, or you have an optical or some sort.

The only time i look at an AIO is when clearance is limited, otherwise there is MORE things to fail on an AIO vs a straight air heat sink, for marginal gains, if any.

I totally agree. I just surmise that manufacturers started offering these "instant water-cooling" solutions because they were nearly guaranteed a marginal performance improvement over the existing heatpipe coolers. And you could probably analyze the customer base. WGusler, in his thread about the C70 case with the H60 or H80 AiO noted that there's a psychology afoot with folks looking for bragging rights because "they have water-cooling."

He also shows how a combination of case airflow, pressurization and slightly beefier fans can enhance the performance of those single-fan AiOs.

But you nail it about "MORE things to fail." And most likely, whether there are "other things," the focus of concern would be the pump, even though (supposedly) the quality of the pumps on these AiO's has improved somewhat.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Bear in mind that AiO can outperform air, even good air like the nh-d15. It just takes something like the h240-x to get you there.

Since you are using an FX, custom water can get you up in the 5-5.3 ghz range if your chip wants to play ball. It might not. Going there on air is nearly (but not entirely) impossible. A powerful AiO like the h240-x might get you up there too, or it might not.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Bear in mind that AiO can outperform air, even good air like the nh-d15. It just takes something like the h240-x to get you there.

Since you are using an FX, custom water can get you up in the 5-5.3 ghz range if your chip wants to play ball. It might not. Going there on air is nearly (but not entirely) impossible. A powerful AiO like the h240-x might get you up there too, or it might not.

I'm really anticipating the Swiftech H240X to shine. But -- go figure! . .

http://www.swiftech.com/H240-X.aspx#tab3

It's "out of stock" at the manufacturer's web-site?!!?!!?

That link provides the only comparison review I've seen so far. Of course, I've not spent days searching, and I will continue as I find myself inclined.

Just glancing at the features, it provides for additional parts or enhancements. You might think that you could hook two of those bad-boys together and essentially have a loop with two pumps in series.

Anyway, they use the 3930K @ 4.5 Ghz and VCORE=1.44V (!!!!) to test it. If they provided the thermal wattage of the test-bed, I'd have a better idea.

The 3930K is a Sandy processor with extra cores. I think the stock wattage was around 130W TDP. I'm running my 2600K and 2700K to a 140W limit with lower voltages than the test-bed, and my air-cooled IBT temperatures vary from ambient to a number (43.4C) close to the H240X.

Obviously, the H240X is outperforming my own air-cooled rig, and I can't make it any better. I'd just like to have a more solid base of comparison. The SB-E processor might provide a satisfactory basis, if only they reported the wattage.

No doubt, though. It seems to show interesting possibilities.

 

[PhIlLy ChEeSe]

Water cooling can only cool up to ambient temps, so if your room is 65c you may see a little lower temp but not much.
Pre made water coolers can not cool as good as a custom loop, plus a custom loop can be cooled even more. Like putting the rad in a bucket with a dry ice anti freeze mixture, or simply open the window in winter......

Pre made cooler for people scared of leaks D:

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Water cooling can only cool up to ambient temps, so if your room is 65c you may see a little lower temp but not much.
Pre made water coolers can not cool as good as a custom loop, plus a custom loop can be cooled even more. Like putting the rad in a bucket with a dry ice anti freeze mixture, or simply open the window in winter......

Pre made cooler for people scared of leaks D:

No argument there. Most people are comfortable with a room ambient somewhere between 70 and 80F. That's a range just a bit more than 5C. Of course, when looking at comparison reviews, it's easy to miss the column of ambients if they vary by test, so it requires a little arithmetic to understand the rank-ordering of coolers. My own room-ambient has been as low as 74F in winter, and high as 82F in the summer. Usually, when I test, the ambient always seems to be 77F.

The Swiftech sort of complicates the distinctions. It has ports for adding other blocks in the loop, so it's not quite an "AiO" or "CLC" cooler. It's something in between AiO and custom -- to be initially applied as "AiO."

For myself, I've just been inclined to take a step back to watch and look at the landscape of cooling. What is the range of temperatures wherein there's little increase in electrical noise that would interfere with over-clocking? Or -- how much cooling do you "need" to accomplish a known objective? A person could spend $500+ on radiators, fittings, waterblock and reservoir. He might spend half that, come back with temperatures 10C higher than the more expensive configuration, and find the same clock speeds are attainable within processor thermal specs at higher temperatures. Conversely, keeping the processor at 5C above either idle or ambient may only mean less heat-stress when over-volting the processor beyond some "reasonable" level.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Water cooling can only cool up to ambient temps, so if your room is 65c

If his room is 65c, he needs an air conditioner! Those conditions would be fatal anyway . . . not necessarily for the computer, but definitely the operator.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I can't remember exactly when Death Valley logged its highest daytime temperature, but I was sure it was around 140F. That was 60C -- am I right?

But that's "livin' in America with two sets of Craftsman tools." I'm sure that Phil just had a lot on his mind.

PS. I know I must have seen something on TV about the Death Valley temperature -- probably the California travel show with Huell Howser. So now that I check, Wikipedia reports the highest temperature occurring in 2013 at 57C. If you were going to fry eggs by putting the fry-pan in the sun, you'd want to put them in shade soon if you like them runny and wet . . .

 

[PhIlLy ChEeSe]

LOL
Its 20 degrees outside in Minnesota :thumbsup:

 

[BonzaiDuck]

LOL
Its 20 degrees outside in Minnesota :thumbsup:

heh-heh. You mean "F" -ing 20 degrees . . .

Which is as much to say -- best have on your Vibram-soled hiking boots when you go outside, or you will slip and break yurass.

Maybe you're still adjusting to the new environment after spending time in LV. Personally, I miss the seasons. I especially miss the occasional years when No. Virginia was "socked in" with 5-foot drifts . . .

. . . and "green" in the summertime . . .