Why do Liberals want America to be like Europe?

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: lordsaytor

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

No, Canadians are just simple sheep that can be herded to wherever. Just mention the US and they'll all get into a frenzy!

Aww. Do you feel better about yourself now, having taking a shot at the Canadians? So you hate Europeans and Canadians too now??

The day will surely come when America burns to the ground. And I would definitely smile when that day comes.

I don't hate Canadians and Europeans as a whole. You must be one of the extremist Candians afflicted with the well known inferiority complex.

But you did prove my point. Thanks! :laugh:

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: chcarnage
Could you please explain this a bit? If you're not referring to Belarus.

There is not as much freedom of speech in many European countries in terms of voicing opinion, literature and movies, and even in political parties.

There are some points in the PATRIOT Act where I'm not sure European counterparts exist, like the unlimited arrest for aliens.

I'm sure that there are other portions in many European countries that are not in the US. In addition, these may have existed before the Patriot Act. The people just don't realize it. In addition, these are for all of their own citizens. I actually wouldn't be surprised if this same 'clause' is actually in some European counterparts or has been for some time.

A good example of this would be Canada. A while back we had Canadians running around laughing about the Patriot Act and pretending that anything even remotely like it would never happen in Canada, but when I asked some how they felt about their own similar bill that had passed - which at the time was worse since it did not even have a sunset clause - nobody could discuss it because they did not even know about it. The US has become a point of focus for many countries in an attempt to brainwash the population while it is focusing on the US. It's sad, really.

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
There is not as much freedom of speech in many European countries in terms of voicing opinion, literature and movies, and even in political parties.

This is still a rather broad accusation which I can hardly disprove. Could you name some movies or books you're referring to? Which kinds of voicing opinion are limited to the US? From demonstrations and strike to elections most forms of political participation are common in European countries.

Like in every system, politicians struggle for power in political parties and search support for their opinions. While parlamentarians of the same party vote more synchronous in many European countries than in the US, they have more than one competing party. The competition in and between parties becomes apparent at different stages of the political process in the parlamentarian and the presidential democracy.

I'm sure that there are other portions in many European countries that are not in the US. In addition, these may have existed before the Patriot Act. The people just don't realize it. In addition, these are for all of their own citizens. I actually wouldn't be surprised if this same 'clause' is actually in some European counterparts or has been for some time.

A good example of this would be Canada. A while back we had Canadians running around laughing about the Patriot Act and pretending that anything even remotely like it would never happen in Canada, but when I asked some how they felt about their own similar bill that had passed - which at the time was worse since it did not even have a sunset clause - nobody could discuss it because they did not even know about it. The US has become a point of focus for many countries in an attempt to brainwash the population while it is focusing on the US. It's sad, really.

Well I'm not a walking statute book so let's put this point aside until a concrete law attracts our attention.

The US becoming a point of focus isn't such a unidirectional process as you make it look here. The US had some serious problems in the PR department, too. The US' push for biometric passports surprised most European nations and didn't give them enough time to introduce passports who apply to the US' standards. Many travelers needed to go to the American embassies and wait for hours for a visa. Some Europeans also had bad experiences with the rude airport security, they were arrested for several hours or denied entry due to false positives on the anti terror blacklist.

Reports about this and the film footage of Guantanamo (Abu Ghraib came later) did quite damage the European image of this democracy who has a self-conception as city on the hill.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Tango
There is, however, not an single gramm of socialism left in Europe. I assure you, many people would love to have it, but it just isn't there. Get an encyclopedia and read the definition of what a socialist state is, and you will probably end thinking that there has NEVER been a single socialist state in history... but if there has ever been one then it's Cuba. Definitely not an european country.

Originally posted by: encyclopedia
Socialism, economic and social doctrine, political movement inspired by this doctrine, and system or order established when this doctrine is organized in a society. The socialist doctrine demands state ownership and control of the fundamental means of production and distribution of wealth, to be achieved by reconstruction of the existing capitalist or other political system of a country through peaceful, democratic, and parliamentary means. The doctrine specifically advocates nationalization of natural resources, basic industries, banking and credit facilities, and public utilities. It places special emphasis on the nationalization of monopolized branches of industry and trade, viewing monopolies as inimical to the public welfare. It also advocates state ownership of corporations in which the ownership function has passed from stockholders to managerial personnel. Smaller and less vital enterprises would be left under private ownership, and privately held cooperatives would be encouraged.

Cuba is communist, having been brought about by violent revolution (one of the primary differences between socialism and communism). You should know that.

Socialism, is actually very descriptive of much of Europe, where primary industries and resources are in the hands of government, but private ownership is still allowed at smaller levels.

No. Ineuropeans country governments doesn't have "ownership and control of the fundamental means of production and distribution of wealth" by any means, nor "advocates nationalization of natural resources, basic industries, banking and credit facilities, and public utilities". Socialism as a political doctrine has been applied (albeit with HUGE distortions in former USSR, and to a more literal level in Cuba). The word, among many others, has been distorted in the common media talk in the USA.

Some european countries are Welfare States. This has NO link whatsoever with socialism, even if some scholars and reaserchers interested in marxism would probably say that these countries coulnd't exist without Marx writings. They are not the same thing, and not even close. There has never been an expropriation of industries by the government in Europe, there is no direct control of the national banks over the credit institutions, and even security critical utilities like energy and water that used to be government owned (but privately run) have been de-nationalized and sold on the financial markets during the '80s.
Again it's not an homogenous domain, with differences among countries, but none has even the slightest link to socialism.

Primary industries ARE NOT in governments' hands, and private ownership is allowed to exactly the same level as in the US or asian capitalist economies.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: chcarnage
Could you please explain this a bit? If you're not referring to Belarus.

There is not as much freedom of speech in many European countries in terms of voicing opinion, literature and movies, and even in political parties.

There's actually more intellectual freedom in Europe than in the US, mainly because the government puts financial help where it thinks better things come from.
Just two weeks ago Economics Nobel Prize winner Stieglitz was giving a speech at Columbia about the curious fact that the US is the only country where International Relations students don't get ANY esxposition not only to Marx, but also from the whole enormous school that comes from Marxism. Post marxist researchers are the leading minds of the world when we speak of de-colonization issues, camparative economics, sustainable developement, and developing countries economics.

Among the many reasons why of this curiosity he considered:

1- USA are a settlers country, while class conflict discussion emerged in Europe they were just too far away

2- USA was built on slavery. There was no working class. Cheap labor force was taken from slaves, and even after slavery the racial segregation caused the working class people to identify themselves basing on the color of their skin, thus not originating a cohesive self-image based on the working conditions and social position.

3- Religion, giving explanations for the status-quo.

4- Express govenrment policy during the '50s and '60s against everything just a little bit related to USSR, communism, socialism, and critic to capitalism.

5- Realism (untill the '70s) and liberalism (until now) being the leading international relations theories among the foreign service and diplomacy professionals in the USA, thus emarginating other theoris leaning towards constructivism.

6- Direct voice of both the government and the private sector against these kind of research.

He actually referred to the academic environment in the USA as "in a state of grave illness when we speak about freedom, truth and vision".

Now, having seen both systems and being still living both in Europe and the USA I actually think he is TOO worried and extreme. But the fact that this kind of research is completly absent in the US is a factual statement, and I do agree that it's a kind of crazy (and sad) heredity of the cold war, and that we all should finally get rid of it.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: chcarnage
This is still a rather broad accusation which I can hardly disprove. Could you name some movies or books you're referring to? Which kinds of voicing opinion are limited to the US? From demonstrations and strike to elections most forms of political participation are common in European countries.

Political parties have been banned in some countries, speech is not as free (especially in regards to certain opinions) as in the US, movies and books have been banned in some countries, such as the battle of algiers a while back.

The US becoming a point of focus isn't such a unidirectional process as you make it look here. The US had some serious problems in the PR department, too. The US' push for biometric passports surprised most European nations and didn't give them enough time to introduce passports who apply to the US' standards. Many travelers needed to go to the American embassies and wait for hours for a visa. Some Europeans also had bad experiences with the rude airport security, they were arrested for several hours or denied entry due to false positives on the anti terror blacklist.

That would be an acceptable issue to be more focused on the US. However, when the citizens spend more time focusing on the US and less time realizing that their own governments have been scheming behind their backs, that's where they ultimately fail.

The issue that you have brought up is relatively minor to the issues that I have brought up where the people have been duped by their own government.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Tango
There's actually more intellectual freedom in Europe than in the US, mainly because the government puts financial help where it thinks better things come from.

I would say that there is more intellectual freedom in the US than Europe.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Tango
There's actually more intellectual freedom in Europe than in the US, mainly because the government puts financial help where it thinks better things come from.

I would say that there is more intellectual freedom in the US than Europe.

Well.. I respect your opinion... I tried to motivate mine with both personal experience and a academic leader's opinion...

Give me at least some more explanation of your position... otherwise there is no debate..

 

[imported_Woody]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Woody
If you argue that large european corporations are run by their government then you can argue that in the U.S. the Government is run by the large corporations.

I'm sure it is very easy for the heads of many large U.S. corporations to get a direct call to the President on very short notice. I know the average citizen isn't able to.

What is your point? 2 wrongs don't equal a right.

It was just an observation, not really intended to make a point. If there is a point, however, I would say you nailed it.


;-)

 

[imported_Pedro69]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: chcarnage
I think you're referring to sectors like public transport, highways, postal service, telecommunication? If so, can you please describe the situation in the US before I reply with more details? If not, can you please write which sectors you had in mind?

No, I was referring to the large government-majority-owned corporations, i.e. Airbus.

BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Pedro69
BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

Renault was just privatized from the French government in 1996.

And FYI, Citroen is owned by Peugeot under the name PSA.

 

[imported_Pedro69]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pedro69
BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

Renault was just privatized from the French government in 1996.

And FYI, Citroen is owned by Peugeot under the name PSA.

Well great to know, but how does that support your argument?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Pedro69

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pedro69
BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

Renault was just privatized from the French government in 1996.

And FYI, Citroen is owned by Peugeot under the name PSA.

Well great to know, but how does that support your argument?

Just thinking of that other 20%.

Hey, where else but Europe can government expenditures exceed 50% of GDP (obviously this varies government to government, but overall average is very close to 50%) and people don't think they're dangerously close to socialism?

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
It probably has to do with the romanticized and idealized notions that some people have about Europe concerning culture and their social civilization. They believe Europe is more refined and civilized than those groady, coarse, undisciplined Americans and they want to be just like them. The funny thing is that a lot of those that feel that way have never actually been to Europe.

If you actually sent most of those people to live in Europe for a few years though, most would be itching to return to "civilization" in short order. Once the romance with history and idealized notions wear off, and reality sets in, people find out that Europe isn't all that and a bag of pomme frites.

Hey Chicken,
I've lived in Paris for a year for work (in 1992), and now I live in the UK. I'm a born and bred New Yorker who previously lived in Manhattan, but also Indianapolis (3 years + 3 at Purdue) and Chicago (5 years).

Know what? Europeans:

1) Understand the meaning of FAMILY VALUES: they are out the door by 5 or 6PM every night, and run right home to their wives and kids. No coming in on weekends (when I go in on Saturday it's usually myself and a couple of Indian consultants), no late night hours - nope, European workers are home (or out) with their families. Those that have young children come in by 7 or 8 and are leave by 3:30 or 4:00.

2) Have meaningful healthcare - depending upon the country, you have basic public healthcare for those that need it, and a private practice for those that can afford it. The US almost has the same thing - except that we rely upon people to declare BANKRUPTCY to get that "public" healthcare in practice - I know this, my ex-wife gave birth to a pair of pre-mature twins that cost us $250,000 in medical bills. Even with BOTH of us fully covered by health insurance from our jobs, we still nearly lost it. 40% of all personal bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical bills - because we have no public healthcare system.

3) Have reliable, useable public transportation - they are READY for $4.00+ a gallon gasoline, because they have artificially taxed it so high for so many years they are more energy efficient. Even in the UK, which is an oil exporter due to teh North Sea wells, they pay $6 per gallon...and they have simply evolved a society that works around that. They use diesels heavily (my diesel SUV gets ~30 mpg, and diesel cars get around 50 mpg), and smaller gasoline engines. They do get some help from Mother Nature - you really don't need auto AC much in the norther sections of Europe, even in August, which greatly reduces the need for larger engines to power the AC compressor. N.B. - when gas really DOES go through the roof - the Europeans can always cut taxes...but it will be too late for America to re-build it's auto-dependant suburbs and gated communities, or switch from airplanes to rail systems. Infrastructure takes decades to change - taxes the stroke of a pen.

4) Their democracies work fairly well, and are much less beholden to special interests than America's. You see an active public dissent against heavy funding of campaings by big business, or politicians that cross ethical boundries (Italy being an exception) being supported. And for pure democracy in action, the weekly question and answer sessions between the British Prime Minister and the House of Commons is amazing...can you imagine if the US President had to walk into Congress every week for over an hour of unscripted questions and answers about his policies from all Congressmen?

5) In terms of culture - well, Americans do fit that loud and loutish badge quiet well. It is amazingly easy to find the Americans in London...find out who is screaming the loudest during normal conversation. Find out who's voices you can hear a half-block down the street outside a croweded pub. It IS always Americans...and it's the kind of experience that makes you cringe just to be one. Most Americans that I know that live here in Europe are very hesitant to help other Americans that appear lost in public - because frankly many of them are embarrasing. So "coarse and undiciplined"? If the shoe fits...

Future Shock

 

[GTaudiophile]

Future Shock: I agree with everything you said, having spent so much time in Germany. And I agree.

But look at Germany. They are a prime example of socialist market economy in a downsprial, despite its best intentions. America is on one end of the spectrum, Europe on the other. What I would love is a good balance between the two.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: Pedro69

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: chcarnage
I think you're referring to sectors like public transport, highways, postal service, telecommunication? If so, can you please describe the situation in the US before I reply with more details? If not, can you please write which sectors you had in mind?

No, I was referring to the large government-majority-owned corporations, i.e. Airbus.

BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

I think the largest single stock holder in VW is the German government. It is still the People's Car as Hitler wanted it to be.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Tango
There's actually more intellectual freedom in Europe than in the US, mainly because the government puts financial help where it thinks better things come from.

I would say that there is more intellectual freedom in the US than Europe.

Well.. I respect your opinion... I tried to motivate mine with both personal experience and a academic leader's opinion...

Give me at least some more explanation of your position... otherwise there is no debate..

I'm basing mine off of my own personal opinion and other facts. The academic institutions n the US far exceed anything that Europe generally has to offer and I feel that this provides a better intellectual environment. In addition, certain forms of expression are more restricted in Europe than in teh US.

BTW, I find it hard to believe that 'Marxism' is not taught anywhere in the US in International Relations (but perhaps it is placed in another concentration) or whatever. Please provide proof for such a statement.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pedro69

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pedro69
BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

Renault was just privatized from the French government in 1996.

And FYI, Citroen is owned by Peugeot under the name PSA.

Well great to know, but how does that support your argument?

Just thinking of that other 20%.

Hey, where else but Europe can government expenditures exceed 50% of GDP (obviously this varies government to government, but overall average is very close to 50%) and people don't think they're dangerously close to socialism?

Vic, I respect you. Seriously. But you are really trying to force something into a scheme... and it's just not there...
The percentage of state-owned societies in Europe is way lower than 20%, and what is still owned by the governments it's so for historical reasons. For example some sectors like energy used to be "natural-monopolies" in europe and the state kept those activities until not a long ago for security reasons. Could you imagine a private monopolist backmailing the government over issues like energy? Or just pricing out people on things like water or electricity? Not every country in this world is a settlers state like the US.
Europe has been around for pretty a long time, so obviously most privates never got the chance to seize critical markets before the state implemented laws about it. The privatization that occourred in Europe during the 70s to 90s period came just because the capital markets were judged mature enough to avoid concentrations of power in too few hands, expecially when dealing with energy. Now states can invest in companies' stocks, but this is true for every country in the world, and actually many european companies are partly owned by US government funds, and many European governments funds own shares in american, japanese, and south american companies. It's just the global market. States trade bonds, currencies and companies shares like any other actor on the financial markets.

Oh, by the way... PSA is a private group. If you are looking for big companies with large shares owned by the state, some examples are ENI, EDF, TIM, Telecom Italia, Finmeccanica, France Telecom, Deuche Telekom...

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Tango
There's actually more intellectual freedom in Europe than in the US, mainly because the government puts financial help where it thinks better things come from.

I would say that there is more intellectual freedom in the US than Europe.

Well.. I respect your opinion... I tried to motivate mine with both personal experience and a academic leader's opinion...

Give me at least some more explanation of your position... otherwise there is no debate..

I'm basing mine off of my own personal opinion and other facts. The academic institutions n the US far exceed anything that Europe generally has to offer and I feel that this provides a better intellectual environment. In addition, certain forms of expression are more restricted in the US than in several European countries.

BTW, I find it hard to believe that 'Marxism' is not taught anywhere in the US in International Relations (but perhaps it is placed in another concentration) or whatever. Please provide proof for such a statement.

Well... academic institutions in US better than in Europe. Let's see... Based on what?

Personally I consider the best academic institutions in the world to be Oxford, Harvard, Yale, Cambridge and Sorbonne Paris in no particular order. You know, academics depend on the professors, and professors tend to travel and move... More than half of the faculty at some Columbia departments come from a foreign country... and the same happens in european institutions... I never understood any kind of school ranking anyway...
I think the US have very good business schools, with very good links with the job markets. But Insead in Paris, London Business School or IMD in Lousanne are at least on the same level, even if they are more traditional.

My field is International Affairs, and I have travelled and studied in a lot of different schools in many different countries. Personally I think the best in the world (for this subject) to be Sciences Po' in Paris, London School of Economics and Columbia University in New York.
If you want my experience... the AVERAGE education you get at college (not graduate school) is better in europe, and the top schools in the US are on par with the top schools in Europe. Graduate studies requiring a lot of funding (technology) are better pursued in the US. I think the approach is often different, with european scholars more interested in pure theoretical thinking and americans more into the practical, case-study way of thinking. It also depend on the subject... I would advice Europe for anything involving art, literature, history, philosophy or social sciences... US for the sciences, IT... there isn't a big difference and both continent have great academic institutions...
One exception being technology intensive subjects, where I think the US lead the pack BY FAR.
I myself enjoyed a lot when I came to study in the US, but I had already experienced education in France, Italy, the UK and Swiss... so I really liked to be able to understand the different point of view people have here in the US...

But again: this was not the topic. We are speaking about freedom to teach and the diversity of the doctrines taught.

Marxism is just not taught in the IR programs in the US. It is not taught at Columbia, nor NYU, nor Harvard. I don't have direct experience of other programs, but I quite trust Stieglitz about anything that comes from his voice.
It IS taught in the anthropology or sociology department as a philosophy course, but not in the professional programs. I don't really care about Marx, but avoiding the study of the researches that came from his critical thinking, many written in the past 10 years and being the most brilliant thinking about globalization and sustainable developement, is just plain incredible. For someone coming from another country is unbeliaveble. It would be like.... for a student of physics to skip Einstein because you don't like some other german guy that wrote before him.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: chcarnage
I think you're referring to sectors like public transport, highways, postal service, telecommunication? If so, can you please describe the situation in the US before I reply with more details? If not, can you please write which sectors you had in mind?

No, I was referring to the large government-majority-owned corporations, i.e. Airbus.

While it would probably hard to find out all the owners of a publically trades company, your particular example is not government owned. Airbus is owned to 80% by EADS and to 20% by BAE systems - both publically traded companies. EADS again is owned by ? and DCX and...
so what were u trying to say?

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pedro69
BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

Renault was just privatized from the French government in 1996.

And FYI, Citroen is owned by Peugeot under the name PSA.

Why do you always seem to take france for europe? It isnt it. France is afaik the only country in (Western) Europe, where major industries are government owned or majority government owned.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: Pedro69

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: chcarnage
I think you're referring to sectors like public transport, highways, postal service, telecommunication? If so, can you please describe the situation in the US before I reply with more details? If not, can you please write which sectors you had in mind?

No, I was referring to the large government-majority-owned corporations, i.e. Airbus.

BMW, Daimler Chrysler, Siemens, Bosch, VW, Fiat, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bayer, Nestle, Philips, Renault, Citroen, Aeroquip - to name just a few are all privately owned. At least 80% of large corporations in Europe are.

I think the largest single stock holder in VW is the German government. It is still the People's Car as Hitler wanted it to be.

Almost, the (still) single largest stockholder (20%) is the state Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen). However this archaic VW law is going to be abolished by the European courts. my guess is - after the recent developments, the largest stockholder will soon be Porsche, or US pension funds or US finance investors trying to destroy VW on the way of making a quick buck .

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: chcarnage
This is still a rather broad accusation which I can hardly disprove. Could you name some movies or books you're referring to? Which kinds of voicing opinion are limited to the US? From demonstrations and strike to elections most forms of political participation are common in European countries.

Political parties have been banned in some countries, speech is not as free (especially in regards to certain opinions) as in the US, movies and books have been banned in some countries, such as the battle of algiers a while back.

The party banning must be difficult to understand in an ultra-solid political system where the only two parties with real power are are quite low-profile. The system isn't the same in Europe. Spain outlawed Heri Batasuna after it was proven that this party was nothing more than the political arm of the ETA terrorists. Seriously I can't think of an illegal party who didn't merit their status.

It gets more delicate with book bannings. While European countries ban books of Holocaust deniers and Nazi propaganda like Mein Kampf, the US maybe doesn't do this for the sake of free speech but I wonder if this risk is worth it. On the other hand there were bannings which I also think were unjustified like French ones about Algeria or euthanasia.

That would be an acceptable issue to be more focused on the US. However, when the citizens spend more time focusing on the US and less time realizing that their own governments have been scheming behind their backs, that's where they ultimately fail.

The issue that you have brought up is relatively minor to the issues that I have brought up where the people have been duped by their own government.

We've both pointed out flaws and limits of civil liberties on both continents and although I think I've pointed out more I accept those you named. Here's another argument: The US has world's biggest imprisioned people percentage which leads to the conclusion that either Americans are more criminal or (and that's my point) their laws are more strict, literally limiting liberty.

My last post was a reply to your lament that Europeans are blind regarding their own laws. I named some American measures with no European counterpart to explain why sometimes the US attracts European attention.

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I think the largest single stock holder in VW is the German government. It is still the People's Car as Hitler wanted it to be.

Godwin's Law in 5... 4... 3...

Originally posted by: Tango
The percentage of state-owned societies in Europe is way lower than 20%, and what is still owned by the governments it's so for historical reasons. For example some sectors like energy used to be "natural-monopolies" in europe and the state kept those activities until not a long ago for security reasons. Could you imagine a private monopolist backmailing the government over issues like energy? Or just pricing out people on things like water or electricity? Not every country in this world is a settlers state like the US.
Europe has been around for pretty a long time, so obviously most privates never got the chance to seize critical markets before the state implemented laws about it. The privatization that occourred in Europe during the 70s to 90s period came just because the capital markets were judged mature enough to avoid concentrations of power in too few hands, expecially when dealing with energy. Now states can invest in companies' stocks, but this is true for every country in the world, and actually many european companies are partly owned by US government funds, and many European governments funds own shares in american, japanese, and south american companies. It's just the global market. States trade bonds, currencies and companies shares like any other actor on the financial markets.

The big blackout of august 2003 demonstrated to us all what happens to the infrastructure if the state doesn't keep an eye on it.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Tango

Well... academic institutions in US better than in Europe. Let's see... Based on what?

Based on research commissioned by the EU and performed by the Chinese, this is correct. US institutions still dominate. I think that many Europeans have a problem accepting this because part of their identity is a fake intellectual supremacy.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Tango
Well... academic institutions in US better than in Europe. Let's see... Based on what?

Rankings and reputation, of course.

My field is International Affairs, and I have travelled and studied in a lot of different schools in many different countries. Personally I think the best in the world (for this subject) to be Sciences Po' in Paris, London School of Economics and Columbia University in New York.
If you want my experience... the AVERAGE education you get at college (not graduate school) is better in europe, and the top schools in the US are on par with the top schools in Europe.

My opinion is that the average educational system in Europe at the undergraduate level is more inferior to the average US educational institution. In addition, the ceiling is much higher in the US.

Graduate studies requiring a lot of funding (technology) are better pursued in the US. I think the approach is often different, with european scholars more interested in pure theoretical thinking and americans more into the practical, case-study way of thinking.

I think that American institutions teach both methods better, as evidenced by the vastly superior amount of techological superiority. You can't have that with only 'case-study way of thinking' and an inferior 'theoretical thinking'. That makes no sense.

It also depend on the subject... I would advice Europe for anything involving art, literature, history, philosophy or social sciences... US for the sciences, IT... there isn't a big difference and both continent have great academic institutions...
One exception being technology intensive subjects, where I think the US lead the pack BY FAR.

I actually think that the US is better in almost all of these circumstances and much more varied, providing a better intellectual freedom.

Marxism is just not taught in the IR programs in the US. It is not taught at Columbia, nor NYU, nor Harvard. I don't have direct experience of other programs, but I quite trust Stieglitz about anything that comes from his voice.
It IS taught in the anthropology or sociology department as a philosophy course, but not in the professional programs. I don't really care about Marx, but avoiding the study of the researches that came from his critical thinking, many written in the past 10 years and being the most brilliant thinking about globalization and sustainable developement, is just plain incredible. For someone coming from another country is unbeliaveble. It would be like.... for a student of physics to skip Einstein because you don't like some other german guy that wrote before him.

Please provide proof of these claims, especially since a simple google search of international relations marxism course yields several results of US schools where their introductory international relations courses' syllabus involves reading from Marx.

Your statements are bizarre and the fact that you seem to have so easily believed such an outlandish statement essentially proves one of my points in my other post.