Why do Muslims have such a hard-on against Jews?

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

And Sharon is a war criminal, no doubt about that.

Care to substantiate this claim? Or do you just like blanket statements. Also do you consider Arafat, Barghouti, Rabin, Ashrawi, Begin, Abbas, etc etc etc war criminals as well?... How do you define a war criminal?

And when you say Israel has a right to exist... in what form?... as a Jewish state?...

-Max

Yes, actually i can substantiate that claim, however you will have to wait a few hours, and that Arafat is a war criminal and an old fool is just as true.

Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, a Hindu state or whatever it wants, it is up to Israel, just like it is up to, say Norway, to decide for itself.

What it cannot do is build a wall on land that isn't theirs and force palestinians to leave their homes that are not within Israels borders.

While I think it would be better for Israel to build the wall within more acceptable borders, there is no denying the political reality of the Israeli democracy.... which means what you and I think is the right thing, isn't agreed upon by all Israelis, and in my mind the current wall is politically plausible, and is therefore the correct thing to do versus not building a wall at all.

Where you and I would REALLY disagree, is that I think Israel should not withdraw from either the Gaza or West Bank without a negotiated settlement with an empowered Palestinian "authority" (not the PA necessarily, but A PA). And this should be an uncompromiseable principle.

I think calling Sharon, or any persona involved in the conflict a "war criminal" is absolutely irrelevent at this point in time.

-Max

Where i live they tore down the wall because the children were smarter than their forefathers, it does nothing but increase tensions and violence at this point.

Israel is not following international law, it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Sharon stood by and even ordered several slaughters of innocent human beings, he is indeed a war criminal and should be tried as one.

The settlements are not legal, not by international law, to ignore international law ensures that we will not have international support, this is just stupid IMO.

I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we can have this discussion in a respectful manner.

The Berlin wall was a wall that was meant to enforce political ideological seperation. The wall in Israel is meant to establish national seperation. The circumstances are very different and thus IMHO incompareable.

International law is extremely biased, underdeveloped, and absolutely unenforced. As such it would be nearly impossible for Israel to respond to the demands of it's citzens, and deal with the nature of the conflict WITHOUT breaking international law constantly. International law, like all beurocracy is ill applied to individual cases.

Yitzhak Rabin, and Peres also witnessed, allowed for and even ordered massacres as well. The same is true for terrorism on the Palestinian side. 56 years of dirty war makes for dirty hands. Trying Sharon for war crimes is nothing but a ploy by his opposition to weaken his strength. Non-war criminals in this conflict are few and far between.

And yes I agree... the civillity of this conversation is an extreme breath of fresh air.

-Max

 

[rextilleon]

Klizzer--you are not ethnically a Jew---LOL---Judaism is a religion a way of life--- So I was right---You are not Jewish--you are a person with no religious affiliation--deny your Judaism its not a big deal--You should however remember is when they led the Jews to the ovens they didn't care whether you thought you were a Jew or not---If you had Jewish blood--caput!

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan
If you are so anti-Islamic, I suggest you stop contributing to the development of Muslim nations and stop buying gas.

If he resides in the US, then I believe much of his gas actually comes from his own country, Canada, and Mexico.

I believe that is factually incorrect. Saudi Arabia supplies the largest amount of oil by volume. Other contributors include Mexico, Canada, Venezuela and the USA's own reserve. Saudi Arabia supplies a tad bit over 16% of the USA's oil. 31% of imported oil comes from the Middle East.

Figures

Therefore, rextilleon should stop using gas altogether, since ~$0.31 of each dollar he spends on gas goes to the development of Muslim nations.

Again read your own link and your own words. Much of the oil comes from the US itself, Canada, and Mexico.

Even if he were anti-Islam and most of the oil came from the Middle East, then that statemetn would not really make sense. If you're against the US, are you not supposed to use many modern electronics and medicines? The transistor was invented by Americans and its use basically spread freely by the US government. Don't use products or the inventions of those evil Americans! Therefore people like Hatim would not be on a computer right now.

Please read my subsequest post. Someone else already pointed out my error and I accepted. Yet another lesson for you to read properly When will you learn?

The statement does make sense. I am not anti-American or anti-anyone, so I have no problem using any of their products.

I saw your statement, but I thought to comment on your reply to me as well.

So you agree then that if someone is anti-American, then they should not use any invention or development made by Americans?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim
from what I head its Jews' goal to conquer the world.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

Where the hell did you come up with this crap?... I bet we use the blood of muslim babies to make matza too?

-Max

Ignorance present in a Muslim "PERSON", not the Muslim world!

Better you inform him of the facts than throw insults on all Muslims.

To Hatim -> No religion would teach that the goal is to "conquer" the world.

Btw, to the Jewish people here, whats the difference between Judaism, the religion and the concept of Zionism?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan
If you are so anti-Islamic, I suggest you stop contributing to the development of Muslim nations and stop buying gas.

If he resides in the US, then I believe much of his gas actually comes from his own country, Canada, and Mexico.

I believe that is factually incorrect. Saudi Arabia supplies the largest amount of oil by volume. Other contributors include Mexico, Canada, Venezuela and the USA's own reserve. Saudi Arabia supplies a tad bit over 16% of the USA's oil. 31% of imported oil comes from the Middle East.

Figures

Therefore, rextilleon should stop using gas altogether, since ~$0.31 of each dollar he spends on gas goes to the development of Muslim nations.

Again read your own link and your own words. Much of the oil comes from the US itself, Canada, and Mexico.

Even if he were anti-Islam and most of the oil came from the Middle East, then that statemetn would not really make sense. If you're against the US, are you not supposed to use many modern electronics and medicines? The transistor was invented by Americans and its use basically spread freely by the US government. Don't use products or the inventions of those evil Americans! Therefore people like Hatim would not be on a computer right now.

Please read my subsequest post. Someone else already pointed out my error and I accepted. Yet another lesson for you to read properly When will you learn?

The statement does make sense. I am not anti-American or anti-anyone, so I have no problem using any of their products.

I saw your statement, but I thought to comment on your reply to me as well.

So you agree then that if someone is anti-American, then they should not use any invention or development made by Americans?

So you just like to poke your nose into everything, is it?

I agree that if someone is anti any-country, then they should not use any resources that country provides.

 

[rextilleon]

Sultan, let me educate you---Zionism is a political movement that called for the Jews to return to Zion--Israel--their ancient homeland. Judaism is a religion--within Judaism you different denominations etc. and a variety of thoughts and concepts about what it is to be a Jew. I

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

And Sharon is a war criminal, no doubt about that.

Care to substantiate this claim? Or do you just like blanket statements. Also do you consider Arafat, Barghouti, Rabin, Ashrawi, Begin, Abbas, etc etc etc war criminals as well?... How do you define a war criminal?

And when you say Israel has a right to exist... in what form?... as a Jewish state?...

-Max

Yes, actually i can substantiate that claim, however you will have to wait a few hours, and that Arafat is a war criminal and an old fool is just as true.

Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, a Hindu state or whatever it wants, it is up to Israel, just like it is up to, say Norway, to decide for itself.

What it cannot do is build a wall on land that isn't theirs and force palestinians to leave their homes that are not within Israels borders.

While I think it would be better for Israel to build the wall within more acceptable borders, there is no denying the political reality of the Israeli democracy.... which means what you and I think is the right thing, isn't agreed upon by all Israelis, and in my mind the current wall is politically plausible, and is therefore the correct thing to do versus not building a wall at all.

Where you and I would REALLY disagree, is that I think Israel should not withdraw from either the Gaza or West Bank without a negotiated settlement with an empowered Palestinian "authority" (not the PA necessarily, but A PA). And this should be an uncompromiseable principle.

I think calling Sharon, or any persona involved in the conflict a "war criminal" is absolutely irrelevent at this point in time.

-Max

Where i live they tore down the wall because the children were smarter than their forefathers, it does nothing but increase tensions and violence at this point.

Israel is not following international law, it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Sharon stood by and even ordered several slaughters of innocent human beings, he is indeed a war criminal and should be tried as one.

The settlements are not legal, not by international law, to ignore international law ensures that we will not have international support, this is just stupid IMO.

I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we can have this discussion in a respectful manner.

The Berlin wall was a wall that was meant to enforce political ideological seperation. The wall in Israel is meant to establish national seperation. The circumstances are very different and thus IMHO incompareable.

International law is extremely biased, underdeveloped, and absolutely unenforced. As such it would be nearly impossible for Israel to respond to the demands of it's citzens, and deal with the nature of the conflict WITHOUT breaking international law constantly. International law, like all beurocracy is ill applied to individual cases.

Yitzhak Rabin, and Peres also witnessed, allowed for and even ordered massacres as well. The same is true for terrorism on the Palestinian side. 56 years of dirty war makes for dirty hands. Trying Sharon for war crimes is nothing but a ploy by his opposition to weaken his strength. Non-war criminals in this conflict are few and far between.

And yes I agree... the civillity of this conversation is an extreme breath of fresh air.

-Max

The circumstances are two different ideologies are separated by a wall, what i meant to say that in the future our kids might be smart enough to make peace so there would be no use for a wall.

International law is what we make of it, nothing more and nothing less, what created Israel in the first place was international law, the borders were presented at international meetings and agreed upon.

It is lacking, i agree, but it is still the best we got.

I am not going to make excuses for any of them, i see it for what it is, just like both you and i still would claim a nazi war criminals need to be convicted, we have to be reasonable in this and see everyones fault if we are going to claim ANYONES fault, otherwise we are just dismissed as biased and speaking for only what is good for one side. That is how it is seen in the international community and i am pretty sure you already know this.

We can agree to disagree but have a discussion about it because we both know where the other is coming from, it is rare in these forums.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Klizzer--you are not ethnically a Jew---LOL---Judaism is a religion a way of life--- So I was right---You are not Jewish--you are a person with no religious affiliation--deny your Judaism its not a big deal--You should however remember is when they led the Jews to the ovens they didn't care whether you thought you were a Jew or not---If you had Jewish blood--caput!

You don't have a clue of what you are saying, as usual, and when it comes to nazi references i usually just refer to Godwins law, you lost.

What makes your statement so absurd is that my grandparents were rescued out of Nazi-Germany, put on a train by a Swede called Wallenberg, long before the US did anything or even thought of doing anything.

Does that qualify as knowledge of my past and how jews were treated in Nazi germany or do you have anything more to add?

Judaism is the religion, but as a Jew by heritage i am accepted as a jew in the only state it matters.

So shut it, you know nothing about me or what it means to be a Jew in any sense of the definition. Don't you think i have taken part of the Torah, don't you think i know where i am coming from? Don't you think at all?

The obvious answer is that you take what is your expericence and latch it onto me, you do it time and time again and time and time again you are proven wrong, when will you stop?

Your post is an insult to me and you should edit or apologize, i expect neither from a narcissist like yourself.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim
from what I head its Jews' goal to conquer the world.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

Where the hell did you come up with this crap?... I bet we use the blood of muslim babies to make matza too?

-Max

Ignorance present in a Muslim "PERSON", not the Muslim world!

Better you inform him of the facts than throw insults on all Muslims.

To Hatim -> No religion would teach that the goal is to "conquer" the world.

Btw, to the Jewish people here, whats the difference between Judaism, the religion and the concept of Zionism?

Now Sultan... lets review exactly what I said.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

This is clearly very different than

all muslims are ignorant

And frankly there is a massive problem within the Muslim world with this kind of ignorance. A good example of this, is the popularity of the "Horseman without a Horse" series that was aired on Egyptian television and throughout the Arab/Muslim world. Did you see it?

It's based on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a very old, very hurtful anti-semetic myth. This series was extremely popular amongst Muslims, and whether you stick your head in the sand or not, this ignorance is quite wide spread.

-Max

 

[rextilleon]

Klizzer--you are a twisted soul! No identity, no sense of who you are, wandering around the world trying to be everything to everyone. At least we have cleared up your confusion about your "ethnic" definition. You should take a page out of your grandparents book--when they come for you (and someday they will--thats inevitable), they wont care about your ethnicity vs your religious beliefs--- I recommend that you re-read your Torah----and try to get closer to your roots. By the way--are you a follower of some kind of New Age philosophy--you sound so out of touch, living in this fantasy world of brotherly love and understanding---WIth statements like "Judaism is the religion, but as a Jew by heritage i am accepted as a jew in the only state it matters"---you reveal a confusion with both identity and language.

You will understand some day--but you are young.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Sultan, let me educate you---Zionism is a political movement that called for the Jews to return to Zion--Israel--their ancient homeland. Judaism is a religion--within Judaism you different denominations etc. and a variety of thoughts and concepts about what it is to be a Jew. I

Well that would be extremely wrong, Zionism isn't a political movement, it is a religious movement which incorporates the laws of fundamentalist Judaism.

And just as normal christians don't see different religions as anything else neither do normal Jews, the Zionists uses the Torah to claim their right as some kind of masters, this is far from what i or any other normal jew believe.

You obviously don't know anything about it so i cannot understand why you keep spewing your BS.

Fundamentalists are always the problem, that goes for EVERY religion, neither Sultan, me, Doboji or any other sensible human being should be held accountable for it but it exists and in that exists the real battle.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

And Sharon is a war criminal, no doubt about that.

Care to substantiate this claim? Or do you just like blanket statements. Also do you consider Arafat, Barghouti, Rabin, Ashrawi, Begin, Abbas, etc etc etc war criminals as well?... How do you define a war criminal?

And when you say Israel has a right to exist... in what form?... as a Jewish state?...

-Max

Yes, actually i can substantiate that claim, however you will have to wait a few hours, and that Arafat is a war criminal and an old fool is just as true.

Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, a Hindu state or whatever it wants, it is up to Israel, just like it is up to, say Norway, to decide for itself.

What it cannot do is build a wall on land that isn't theirs and force palestinians to leave their homes that are not within Israels borders.

While I think it would be better for Israel to build the wall within more acceptable borders, there is no denying the political reality of the Israeli democracy.... which means what you and I think is the right thing, isn't agreed upon by all Israelis, and in my mind the current wall is politically plausible, and is therefore the correct thing to do versus not building a wall at all.

Where you and I would REALLY disagree, is that I think Israel should not withdraw from either the Gaza or West Bank without a negotiated settlement with an empowered Palestinian "authority" (not the PA necessarily, but A PA). And this should be an uncompromiseable principle.

I think calling Sharon, or any persona involved in the conflict a "war criminal" is absolutely irrelevent at this point in time.

-Max

Where i live they tore down the wall because the children were smarter than their forefathers, it does nothing but increase tensions and violence at this point.

Israel is not following international law, it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Sharon stood by and even ordered several slaughters of innocent human beings, he is indeed a war criminal and should be tried as one.

The settlements are not legal, not by international law, to ignore international law ensures that we will not have international support, this is just stupid IMO.

I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we can have this discussion in a respectful manner.

The Berlin wall was a wall that was meant to enforce political ideological seperation. The wall in Israel is meant to establish national seperation. The circumstances are very different and thus IMHO incompareable.

International law is extremely biased, underdeveloped, and absolutely unenforced. As such it would be nearly impossible for Israel to respond to the demands of it's citzens, and deal with the nature of the conflict WITHOUT breaking international law constantly. International law, like all beurocracy is ill applied to individual cases.

Yitzhak Rabin, and Peres also witnessed, allowed for and even ordered massacres as well. The same is true for terrorism on the Palestinian side. 56 years of dirty war makes for dirty hands. Trying Sharon for war crimes is nothing but a ploy by his opposition to weaken his strength. Non-war criminals in this conflict are few and far between.

And yes I agree... the civillity of this conversation is an extreme breath of fresh air.

-Max

The circumstances are two different ideologies are separated by a wall, what i meant to say that in the future our kids might be smart enough to make peace so there would be no use for a wall.

International law is what we make of it, nothing more and nothing less, what created Israel in the first place was international law, the borders were presented at international meetings and agreed upon.

It is lacking, i agree, but it is still the best we got.

I am not going to make excuses for any of them, i see it for what it is, just like both you and i still would claim a nazi war criminals need to be convicted, we have to be reasonable in this and see everyones fault if we are going to claim ANYONES fault, otherwise we are just dismissed as biased and speaking for only what is good for one side. That is how it is seen in the international community and i am pretty sure you already know this.

We can agree to disagree but have a discussion about it because we both know where the other is coming from, it is rare in these forums.

Interesting that you live in Germany, a few years ago I did a whirlwind tour through several European countries including Netherlands, France, Italy, Belgium, and Germany. I found the anti-semetic sentiment absolutely disturbing, especially in France. For a very long time I was afraid to go to Germany, because in my mind it seemed the center of jew hatred worldwide. I found the courage and went to Munich, and Dachau, and what I saw and how I was treated changed my perspective on Germany forever. I wanted to walk around display my Magen David proudly as sort of a big fat fvck you to the germans, but within a day, I felt like an azz for assuming that todays Germans and Nazi Germans were even close to being the same thing. Of all the countries I visited in Europe, Germany was were I felt best.

As for the discussion at hand, I think International law is worse than "what we've got" I think it's very damaging, especially in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. BECAUSE it has a unidirectional effect. The Palestinians because of their practically non-existent leadership are exempt from the standards of International law. Whereas the Israelis are very culpable. In this instance International law actually perpetuates it's own breakage.

As for Sharon, I'm not convinced he's anything special in regards to his crimes. I know you're thinking of Sabra and Shatilla, but after extensive independent research on my own, I am not at all convinced that he is any more responsible than the Israeli commission first declared him as.

As for the wall, I absolutely agree, I sincerely hope that soon the wall will be unnecessary and dismantled, so that Israeli's and Palestinians can cross back and forth at ease.

-Max

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Klizzer--you are a twisted soul! No identity, no sense of who you are, wandering around the world trying to be everything to everyone. At least we have cleared up your confusion about your "ethnic" definition. You should take a page out of your grandparents book--when they come for you (and someday they will--thats inevitable), they wont care about your ethnicity vs your religious beliefs--- I recommend that you re-read your Torah----and try to get closer to your roots. By the way--are you a follower of some kind of New Age philosophy--you sound so out of touch, living in this fantasy world of brotherly love and understanding---WIth statements like "Judaism is the religion, but as a Jew by heritage i am accepted as a jew in the only state it matters"---you reveal a confusion with both identity and language.

You will understand some day--but you are young.

I have fought in several different wars, i am probably twice as old as you, i understand more about my heritage than you ever will about yours.

I am no follower of anyone elses beliefs at all, i have seen the world for what it is, with all the pain and suffering, with all the good that can come out of it (i am a father of three) and with all that could be if we just let it.

You OTOH assume too much and will continue to assume about me even though you are proven wrong in every post you have posted so far.

If nothing else, i have pity for your ignorance.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Klizzer--you are a twisted soul! No identity, no sense of who you are, wandering around the world trying to be everything to everyone. At least we have cleared up your confusion about your "ethnic" definition. You should take a page out of your grandparents book--when they come for you (and someday they will--thats inevitable), they wont care about your ethnicity vs your religious beliefs--- I recommend that you re-read your Torah----and try to get closer to your roots. By the way--are you a follower of some kind of New Age philosophy--you sound so out of touch, living in this fantasy world of brotherly love and understanding---WIth statements like "Judaism is the religion, but as a Jew by heritage i am accepted as a jew in the only state it matters"---you reveal a confusion with both identity and language.

You will understand some day--but you are young.

I think Klixxer has made his beliefs pretty clear, he is from a very Jewish background, but has not subscribed to Judaism as a religion. He doesnt aspire to be called anything more than this. Perhaps he will go and explore Judaism more, and like it. But it's also equally likely that he wont. So be it... that his decision and I respect him for being open and honest about where he stands.

-Max

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

And Sharon is a war criminal, no doubt about that.

Care to substantiate this claim? Or do you just like blanket statements. Also do you consider Arafat, Barghouti, Rabin, Ashrawi, Begin, Abbas, etc etc etc war criminals as well?... How do you define a war criminal?

And when you say Israel has a right to exist... in what form?... as a Jewish state?...

-Max

Yes, actually i can substantiate that claim, however you will have to wait a few hours, and that Arafat is a war criminal and an old fool is just as true.

Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, a Hindu state or whatever it wants, it is up to Israel, just like it is up to, say Norway, to decide for itself.

What it cannot do is build a wall on land that isn't theirs and force palestinians to leave their homes that are not within Israels borders.

While I think it would be better for Israel to build the wall within more acceptable borders, there is no denying the political reality of the Israeli democracy.... which means what you and I think is the right thing, isn't agreed upon by all Israelis, and in my mind the current wall is politically plausible, and is therefore the correct thing to do versus not building a wall at all.

Where you and I would REALLY disagree, is that I think Israel should not withdraw from either the Gaza or West Bank without a negotiated settlement with an empowered Palestinian "authority" (not the PA necessarily, but A PA). And this should be an uncompromiseable principle.

I think calling Sharon, or any persona involved in the conflict a "war criminal" is absolutely irrelevent at this point in time.

-Max

Where i live they tore down the wall because the children were smarter than their forefathers, it does nothing but increase tensions and violence at this point.

Israel is not following international law, it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Sharon stood by and even ordered several slaughters of innocent human beings, he is indeed a war criminal and should be tried as one.

The settlements are not legal, not by international law, to ignore international law ensures that we will not have international support, this is just stupid IMO.

I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we can have this discussion in a respectful manner.

The Berlin wall was a wall that was meant to enforce political ideological seperation. The wall in Israel is meant to establish national seperation. The circumstances are very different and thus IMHO incompareable.

International law is extremely biased, underdeveloped, and absolutely unenforced. As such it would be nearly impossible for Israel to respond to the demands of it's citzens, and deal with the nature of the conflict WITHOUT breaking international law constantly. International law, like all beurocracy is ill applied to individual cases.

Yitzhak Rabin, and Peres also witnessed, allowed for and even ordered massacres as well. The same is true for terrorism on the Palestinian side. 56 years of dirty war makes for dirty hands. Trying Sharon for war crimes is nothing but a ploy by his opposition to weaken his strength. Non-war criminals in this conflict are few and far between.

And yes I agree... the civillity of this conversation is an extreme breath of fresh air.

-Max

The circumstances are two different ideologies are separated by a wall, what i meant to say that in the future our kids might be smart enough to make peace so there would be no use for a wall.

International law is what we make of it, nothing more and nothing less, what created Israel in the first place was international law, the borders were presented at international meetings and agreed upon.

It is lacking, i agree, but it is still the best we got.

I am not going to make excuses for any of them, i see it for what it is, just like both you and i still would claim a nazi war criminals need to be convicted, we have to be reasonable in this and see everyones fault if we are going to claim ANYONES fault, otherwise we are just dismissed as biased and speaking for only what is good for one side. That is how it is seen in the international community and i am pretty sure you already know this.

We can agree to disagree but have a discussion about it because we both know where the other is coming from, it is rare in these forums.

Interesting that you live in Germany, a few years ago I did a whirlwind tour through several European countries including Netherlands, France, Italy, Belgium, and Germany. I found the anti-semetic sentiment absolutely disturbing, especially in France. For a very long time I was afraid to go to Germany, because in my mind it seemed the center of jew hatred worldwide. I found the courage and went to Munich, and Dachau, and what I saw and how I was treated changed my perspective on Germany forever. I wanted to walk around display my Magen David proudly as sort of a big fat fvck you to the germans, but within a day, I felt like an azz for assuming that todays Germans and Nazi Germans were even close to being the same thing. Of all the countries I visited in Europe, Germany was were I felt best.

As for the discussion at hand, I think International law is worse than "what we've got" I think it's very damaging, especially in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. BECAUSE it has a unidirectional effect. The Palestinians because of their practically non-existent leadership are exempt from the standards of International law. Whereas the Israelis are very culpable. In this instance International law actually perpetuates it's own breakage.

As for Sharon, I'm not convinced he's anything special in regards to his crimes. I know you're thinking of Sabra and Shatilla, but after extensive independent research on my own, I am not at all convinced that he is any more responsible than the Israeli commission first declared him as.

As for the wall, I absolutely agree, I sincerely hope that soon the wall will be unnecessary and dismantled, so that Israeli's and Palestinians can cross back and forth at ease.

-Max

I am glad you enjoyed Germany, my home country for now, many still think it is where anti semitism is the strongest but i would say that France, Australia and California rank higher on that scale.

I am treated well and nobody here would think twice about my heritage.

We have differing opinions regarding international law, i see it as a prevention of something like Nazi Germany happening ever again, as something that we need to respect and fight for, not as something biased and ugly. But i do agree with you regarding the palestinian states non-being, it needs to be set up and set up fast because this isn't getting any better without it.

Regarding Sabra, i am not going to discuss it here, but i do think that he is a war criminal, i think so because of reasons of my own.

When it all comes around, we agree about peace, that is really all that matters, peace for the people of Israel, we might have different opinions about how to get there, but the goal is the same, no need for a wall when there is peace.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Klizzer--you are a twisted soul! No identity, no sense of who you are, wandering around the world trying to be everything to everyone. At least we have cleared up your confusion about your "ethnic" definition. You should take a page out of your grandparents book--when they come for you (and someday they will--thats inevitable), they wont care about your ethnicity vs your religious beliefs--- I recommend that you re-read your Torah----and try to get closer to your roots. By the way--are you a follower of some kind of New Age philosophy--you sound so out of touch, living in this fantasy world of brotherly love and understanding---WIth statements like "Judaism is the religion, but as a Jew by heritage i am accepted as a jew in the only state it matters"---you reveal a confusion with both identity and language.

You will understand some day--but you are young.

I think Klixxer has made his beliefs pretty clear, he is from a very Jewish background, but has not subscribed to Judaism as a religion. He doesnt aspire to be called anything more than this. Perhaps he will go and explore Judaism more, and like it. But it's also equally likely that he wont. So be it... that his decision and I respect him for being open and honest about where he stands.

-Max

Thank you Max.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim
from what I head its Jews' goal to conquer the world.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

Where the hell did you come up with this crap?... I bet we use the blood of muslim babies to make matza too?

-Max

Ignorance present in a Muslim "PERSON", not the Muslim world!

Better you inform him of the facts than throw insults on all Muslims.

To Hatim -> No religion would teach that the goal is to "conquer" the world.

Btw, to the Jewish people here, whats the difference between Judaism, the religion and the concept of Zionism?

Now Sultan... lets review exactly what I said.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

This is clearly very different than

all muslims are ignorant

And frankly there is a massive problem within the Muslim world with this kind of ignorance. A good example of this, is the popularity of the "Horseman without a Horse" series that was aired on Egyptian television and throughout the Arab/Muslim world. Did you see it?

It's based on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a very old, very hurtful anti-semetic myth. This series was extremely popular amongst Muslims, and whether you stick your head in the sand or not, this ignorance is quite wide spread.

-Max

Before you start assuming, please ask Hatim where he is from. Maybe he's from right here, the United States. There is also much enlightment present in the Muslim world, and not ignorance. Making such a broad statement does no favor to people of any religion to move towards tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

Why do you have a problem with that series? The same can be said of our devout Christian leader, Mr. Bush's word twisting and scare tactics to convince Americans the danger Saddam posed. His words were so popular that even know, a large majority of Americans STILL believe Saddam possessed WMDs and had a fundamental role in 9/11 attacks. Those people are stupid. And you can say the same thing about those people who believe in that series. What does Islam or Muslims have anything to do with it? Ignorance and stupidity is not promoted or influenced by a religion.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Sultan, let me educate you---Zionism is a political movement that called for the Jews to return to Zion--Israel--their ancient homeland. Judaism is a religion--within Judaism you different denominations etc. and a variety of thoughts and concepts about what it is to be a Jew. I

Well that would be extremely wrong, Zionism isn't a political movement, it is a religious movement which incorporates the laws of fundamentalist Judaism.

And just as normal christians don't see different religions as anything else neither do normal Jews, the Zionists uses the Torah to claim their right as some kind of masters, this is far from what i or any other normal jew believe.

You obviously don't know anything about it so i cannot understand why you keep spewing your BS.

Fundamentalists are always the problem, that goes for EVERY religion, neither Sultan, me, Doboji or any other sensible human being should be held accountable for it but it exists and in that exists the real battle.

Agreed.

I just wont use the word "Fundamentalists". Fundamentalists by definition are the people who believe in the fundamentals of their religion and I believe that is a good thing. On the contrary, those who use religion to suit their own selfish purposes are the ones who corrupt the religion and the society and make the world a much worse place to be in. The term fundamentalist is incorrect to describe them.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: hatim
from what I head its Jews' goal to conquer the world.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

Where the hell did you come up with this crap?... I bet we use the blood of muslim babies to make matza too?

-Max

Ignorance present in a Muslim "PERSON", not the Muslim world!

Better you inform him of the facts than throw insults on all Muslims.

To Hatim -> No religion would teach that the goal is to "conquer" the world.

Btw, to the Jewish people here, whats the difference between Judaism, the religion and the concept of Zionism?

Now Sultan... lets review exactly what I said.

And here we have the classic proof of the ignorance present in the Muslim world....

This is clearly very different than

all muslims are ignorant

And frankly there is a massive problem within the Muslim world with this kind of ignorance. A good example of this, is the popularity of the "Horseman without a Horse" series that was aired on Egyptian television and throughout the Arab/Muslim world. Did you see it?

It's based on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a very old, very hurtful anti-semetic myth. This series was extremely popular amongst Muslims, and whether you stick your head in the sand or not, this ignorance is quite wide spread.

-Max

Before you start assuming, please ask Hatim where he is from. Maybe he's from right here, the United States. There is also much enlightment present in the Muslim world, and not ignorance. Making such a broad statement does no favor to people of any religion to move towards tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

Why do you have a problem with that series? The same can be said of our devout Christian leader, Mr. Bush's word twisting and scare tactics to convince Americans the danger Saddam posed. His words were so popular that even know, a large majority of Americans STILL believe Saddam possessed WMDs and had a fundamental role in 9/11 attacks. Those people are stupid. And you can say the same thing about those people who believe in that series. What does Islam or Muslims have anything to do with it? Ignorance and stupidity is not promoted or influenced by a religion.

Very good point, stupidity is mankinds way of saying they are stupid, it is individual at best but at times can be widespreade IN THE NAME of religion, not because the religion in itself is evil or hateful.

We all need to take a step back and look at ourselvs, we expect others to be so perfect while we spew our hate at them when they are not.

Nobody, not even the fundies like Hatim can say that anything good comes out of it.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: rextilleon
Sultan, let me educate you---Zionism is a political movement that called for the Jews to return to Zion--Israel--their ancient homeland. Judaism is a religion--within Judaism you different denominations etc. and a variety of thoughts and concepts about what it is to be a Jew. I

Well that would be extremely wrong, Zionism isn't a political movement, it is a religious movement which incorporates the laws of fundamentalist Judaism.

And just as normal christians don't see different religions as anything else neither do normal Jews, the Zionists uses the Torah to claim their right as some kind of masters, this is far from what i or any other normal jew believe.

You obviously don't know anything about it so i cannot understand why you keep spewing your BS.

Fundamentalists are always the problem, that goes for EVERY religion, neither Sultan, me, Doboji or any other sensible human being should be held accountable for it but it exists and in that exists the real battle.

Agreed.

I just wont use the word "Fundamentalists". Fundamentalists by definition are the people who believe in the fundamentals of their religion and I believe that is a good thing. On the contrary, those who use religion to suit their own selfish purposes are the ones who corrupt the religion and the society and make the world a much worse place to be in. The term fundamentalist is incorrect to describe them.

If i would believe in the fundamentals (literally believe in the scripture) i wouldn't think that you were worthy of my response, well i don't and you are, the same applies to your religion.

The term fundamentalists is the correct way to describe those who believe in the literal word of God, without exceptions or anything else, people like Hatim.

It is impossible to adhere to and still be tolerant, that is why i consider myself a Jew but do not adhere to the faith Judaism.

I am tolerant of the wrongdoings of man until a certain point, i believe we, as different societies set these points pretty much regardless of religion and when we do not, we have a theocracy in which there will be problems with discrimination and such.

It is a hard road to follow but i will follow it.

 

[rextilleon]

How silly you are----Zionism was a national movement that arose during the age of national movements---If you read the writings of all the early Zionists, they are political writings that essentially say that Jews will not be safe anywhere until they have their own homeland. Many of the early Zionists were socialists, who had absolutely no affiliation with any religious practice. The Reformation was a religious movement.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: rextilleon
How silly you are----Zionism was a national movement that arose during the age of national movements---If you read the writings of all the early Zionists, they are political writings that essentially say that Jews will not be safe anywhere until they have their own homeland. Many of the early Zionists were socialists, who had absolutely no affiliation with any religious practice. The Reformation was a religious movement.

Well, you are silly enough to just dismiss, but i will tell you this again, Zionism is based on extreme fundamentals of Judaism, no matter what you say or how you say it, it is a religious movement.

Go away troll.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

And Sharon is a war criminal, no doubt about that.

Care to substantiate this claim? Or do you just like blanket statements. Also do you consider Arafat, Barghouti, Rabin, Ashrawi, Begin, Abbas, etc etc etc war criminals as well?... How do you define a war criminal?

And when you say Israel has a right to exist... in what form?... as a Jewish state?...

-Max

Yes, actually i can substantiate that claim, however you will have to wait a few hours, and that Arafat is a war criminal and an old fool is just as true.

Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, a Hindu state or whatever it wants, it is up to Israel, just like it is up to, say Norway, to decide for itself.

What it cannot do is build a wall on land that isn't theirs and force palestinians to leave their homes that are not within Israels borders.

While I think it would be better for Israel to build the wall within more acceptable borders, there is no denying the political reality of the Israeli democracy.... which means what you and I think is the right thing, isn't agreed upon by all Israelis, and in my mind the current wall is politically plausible, and is therefore the correct thing to do versus not building a wall at all.

Where you and I would REALLY disagree, is that I think Israel should not withdraw from either the Gaza or West Bank without a negotiated settlement with an empowered Palestinian "authority" (not the PA necessarily, but A PA). And this should be an uncompromiseable principle.

I think calling Sharon, or any persona involved in the conflict a "war criminal" is absolutely irrelevent at this point in time.

-Max

Where i live they tore down the wall because the children were smarter than their forefathers, it does nothing but increase tensions and violence at this point.

Israel is not following international law, it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Sharon stood by and even ordered several slaughters of innocent human beings, he is indeed a war criminal and should be tried as one.

The settlements are not legal, not by international law, to ignore international law ensures that we will not have international support, this is just stupid IMO.

I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we can have this discussion in a respectful manner.

The Berlin wall was a wall that was meant to enforce political ideological seperation. The wall in Israel is meant to establish national seperation. The circumstances are very different and thus IMHO incompareable.

International law is extremely biased, underdeveloped, and absolutely unenforced. As such it would be nearly impossible for Israel to respond to the demands of it's citzens, and deal with the nature of the conflict WITHOUT breaking international law constantly. International law, like all beurocracy is ill applied to individual cases.

Yitzhak Rabin, and Peres also witnessed, allowed for and even ordered massacres as well. The same is true for terrorism on the Palestinian side. 56 years of dirty war makes for dirty hands. Trying Sharon for war crimes is nothing but a ploy by his opposition to weaken his strength. Non-war criminals in this conflict are few and far between.

And yes I agree... the civillity of this conversation is an extreme breath of fresh air.

-Max

The circumstances are two different ideologies are separated by a wall, what i meant to say that in the future our kids might be smart enough to make peace so there would be no use for a wall.

International law is what we make of it, nothing more and nothing less, what created Israel in the first place was international law, the borders were presented at international meetings and agreed upon.

It is lacking, i agree, but it is still the best we got.

I am not going to make excuses for any of them, i see it for what it is, just like both you and i still would claim a nazi war criminals need to be convicted, we have to be reasonable in this and see everyones fault if we are going to claim ANYONES fault, otherwise we are just dismissed as biased and speaking for only what is good for one side. That is how it is seen in the international community and i am pretty sure you already know this.

We can agree to disagree but have a discussion about it because we both know where the other is coming from, it is rare in these forums.

Interesting that you live in Germany, a few years ago I did a whirlwind tour through several European countries including Netherlands, France, Italy, Belgium, and Germany. I found the anti-semetic sentiment absolutely disturbing, especially in France. For a very long time I was afraid to go to Germany, because in my mind it seemed the center of jew hatred worldwide. I found the courage and went to Munich, and Dachau, and what I saw and how I was treated changed my perspective on Germany forever. I wanted to walk around display my Magen David proudly as sort of a big fat fvck you to the germans, but within a day, I felt like an azz for assuming that todays Germans and Nazi Germans were even close to being the same thing. Of all the countries I visited in Europe, Germany was were I felt best.

As for the discussion at hand, I think International law is worse than "what we've got" I think it's very damaging, especially in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. BECAUSE it has a unidirectional effect. The Palestinians because of their practically non-existent leadership are exempt from the standards of International law. Whereas the Israelis are very culpable. In this instance International law actually perpetuates it's own breakage.

As for Sharon, I'm not convinced he's anything special in regards to his crimes. I know you're thinking of Sabra and Shatilla, but after extensive independent research on my own, I am not at all convinced that he is any more responsible than the Israeli commission first declared him as.

As for the wall, I absolutely agree, I sincerely hope that soon the wall will be unnecessary and dismantled, so that Israeli's and Palestinians can cross back and forth at ease.

-Max

I am glad you enjoyed Germany, my home country for now, many still think it is where anti semitism is the strongest but i would say that France, Australia and California rank higher on that scale.

I am treated well and nobody here would think twice about my heritage.

We have differing opinions regarding international law, i see it as a prevention of something like Nazi Germany happening ever again, as something that we need to respect and fight for, not as something biased and ugly. But i do agree with you regarding the palestinian states non-being, it needs to be set up and set up fast because this isn't getting any better without it.

Regarding Sabra, i am not going to discuss it here, but i do think that he is a war criminal, i think so because of reasons of my own.

When it all comes around, we agree about peace, that is really all that matters, peace for the people of Israel, we might have different opinions about how to get there, but the goal is the same, no need for a wall when there is peace.

Regarding the discussion you two are having, I'd like to ask... since all these European countries have such significant anti-Semite feelings, why do the Muslims get blamed for being anti-Semite and not these European nations? And why ARE these European nations anti-Semite anyways? Why would they have a problem with Jews or Semites or whatever? I still dont understand why the term anti-Semite is used to define hatred for the Jews. Semites was a race. Jews are a people following a faith. Anyways, whats the answers to the above.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Doboji

And Sharon is a war criminal, no doubt about that.

Care to substantiate this claim? Or do you just like blanket statements. Also do you consider Arafat, Barghouti, Rabin, Ashrawi, Begin, Abbas, etc etc etc war criminals as well?... How do you define a war criminal?

And when you say Israel has a right to exist... in what form?... as a Jewish state?...

-Max

Yes, actually i can substantiate that claim, however you will have to wait a few hours, and that Arafat is a war criminal and an old fool is just as true.

Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, a Hindu state or whatever it wants, it is up to Israel, just like it is up to, say Norway, to decide for itself.

What it cannot do is build a wall on land that isn't theirs and force palestinians to leave their homes that are not within Israels borders.

While I think it would be better for Israel to build the wall within more acceptable borders, there is no denying the political reality of the Israeli democracy.... which means what you and I think is the right thing, isn't agreed upon by all Israelis, and in my mind the current wall is politically plausible, and is therefore the correct thing to do versus not building a wall at all.

Where you and I would REALLY disagree, is that I think Israel should not withdraw from either the Gaza or West Bank without a negotiated settlement with an empowered Palestinian "authority" (not the PA necessarily, but A PA). And this should be an uncompromiseable principle.

I think calling Sharon, or any persona involved in the conflict a "war criminal" is absolutely irrelevent at this point in time.

-Max

Where i live they tore down the wall because the children were smarter than their forefathers, it does nothing but increase tensions and violence at this point.

Israel is not following international law, it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Sharon stood by and even ordered several slaughters of innocent human beings, he is indeed a war criminal and should be tried as one.

The settlements are not legal, not by international law, to ignore international law ensures that we will not have international support, this is just stupid IMO.

I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we can have this discussion in a respectful manner.

The Berlin wall was a wall that was meant to enforce political ideological seperation. The wall in Israel is meant to establish national seperation. The circumstances are very different and thus IMHO incompareable.

International law is extremely biased, underdeveloped, and absolutely unenforced. As such it would be nearly impossible for Israel to respond to the demands of it's citzens, and deal with the nature of the conflict WITHOUT breaking international law constantly. International law, like all beurocracy is ill applied to individual cases.

Yitzhak Rabin, and Peres also witnessed, allowed for and even ordered massacres as well. The same is true for terrorism on the Palestinian side. 56 years of dirty war makes for dirty hands. Trying Sharon for war crimes is nothing but a ploy by his opposition to weaken his strength. Non-war criminals in this conflict are few and far between.

And yes I agree... the civillity of this conversation is an extreme breath of fresh air.

-Max

The circumstances are two different ideologies are separated by a wall, what i meant to say that in the future our kids might be smart enough to make peace so there would be no use for a wall.

International law is what we make of it, nothing more and nothing less, what created Israel in the first place was international law, the borders were presented at international meetings and agreed upon.

It is lacking, i agree, but it is still the best we got.

I am not going to make excuses for any of them, i see it for what it is, just like both you and i still would claim a nazi war criminals need to be convicted, we have to be reasonable in this and see everyones fault if we are going to claim ANYONES fault, otherwise we are just dismissed as biased and speaking for only what is good for one side. That is how it is seen in the international community and i am pretty sure you already know this.

We can agree to disagree but have a discussion about it because we both know where the other is coming from, it is rare in these forums.

Interesting that you live in Germany, a few years ago I did a whirlwind tour through several European countries including Netherlands, France, Italy, Belgium, and Germany. I found the anti-semetic sentiment absolutely disturbing, especially in France. For a very long time I was afraid to go to Germany, because in my mind it seemed the center of jew hatred worldwide. I found the courage and went to Munich, and Dachau, and what I saw and how I was treated changed my perspective on Germany forever. I wanted to walk around display my Magen David proudly as sort of a big fat fvck you to the germans, but within a day, I felt like an azz for assuming that todays Germans and Nazi Germans were even close to being the same thing. Of all the countries I visited in Europe, Germany was were I felt best.

As for the discussion at hand, I think International law is worse than "what we've got" I think it's very damaging, especially in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. BECAUSE it has a unidirectional effect. The Palestinians because of their practically non-existent leadership are exempt from the standards of International law. Whereas the Israelis are very culpable. In this instance International law actually perpetuates it's own breakage.

As for Sharon, I'm not convinced he's anything special in regards to his crimes. I know you're thinking of Sabra and Shatilla, but after extensive independent research on my own, I am not at all convinced that he is any more responsible than the Israeli commission first declared him as.

As for the wall, I absolutely agree, I sincerely hope that soon the wall will be unnecessary and dismantled, so that Israeli's and Palestinians can cross back and forth at ease.

-Max

I am glad you enjoyed Germany, my home country for now, many still think it is where anti semitism is the strongest but i would say that France, Australia and California rank higher on that scale.

I am treated well and nobody here would think twice about my heritage.

We have differing opinions regarding international law, i see it as a prevention of something like Nazi Germany happening ever again, as something that we need to respect and fight for, not as something biased and ugly. But i do agree with you regarding the palestinian states non-being, it needs to be set up and set up fast because this isn't getting any better without it.

Regarding Sabra, i am not going to discuss it here, but i do think that he is a war criminal, i think so because of reasons of my own.

When it all comes around, we agree about peace, that is really all that matters, peace for the people of Israel, we might have different opinions about how to get there, but the goal is the same, no need for a wall when there is peace.

Regarding the discussion you two are having, I'd like to ask... since all these European countries have such significant anti-Semite feelings, why do the Muslims get blamed for being anti-Semite and not these European nations? And why ARE these European nations anti-Semite anyways? Why would they have a problem with Jews or Semites or whatever? I still dont understand why the term anti-Semite is used to define hatred for the Jews. Semites was a race. Jews are a people following a faith. Anyways, whats the answers to the above.

Oh, the anti semitism is hardly strong in any parts of europe, it is a matter of where you go, just like in the US, where there is a strong movement of the KKK and the neo-nazis.

I think the reasons are to deep for me to understand, but it has more to do with foreigners than semites alone or jews alone, it has more to do with where these countries are coming from, it needs some change but as a whole, no nation in europe is anti semitic or openly racist against ANY race.

It has nothing to do with the religions it has more to do with the cultures clashing.

In europe today we see a lot of cultures clashing, racial wars, and we simply don't want it, you can come here, it is ok, but for FVCKS sakes stop being violent against our culture or any other culture.

It doesn't help much if we are tolerant if the ones who come here are not.

So we have a problem with that. not with muslims, jews, semites, black people or whatever.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer
[I am glad you enjoyed Germany, my home country for now, many still think it is where anti semitism is the strongest but i would say that France, Australia and California rank higher on that scale.

Just curious, but why do you say that California and Australia rank higher on that scale? And why are you comparing one state of one country to whole other countries?

I know that Australia does have many problems, but California is extremely diverse. What problems do these two have with regards to anti-semitism?