Originally posted by: Sultan
quote:
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Ofcourse Islam doesnt claim that the Quran was written by God's HAND directly, but it IS the word of God so believe the Muslims. This doesnt answer my question though. Who are the people you named? Saints? Were they Jews or Christians? Are they attributed with starting the religion of Christianity? If Jews believed in Jesus as being God and had to crucify him, why Christianity at all?
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Christians likewise claim that their gospels are the word of God. The people named above are both Jews and Christians. Supposedly, they're Apostles (and thus also saints), but as with the Qu'ran, no one knows who actually wrote the Gospels down. All we have is tradition in either case.
Did you not say "the books themselves don't make a claim as to their authorship and do not offer a first person point of view. We don't know who wrote them."? I believe the Bible has some 26000 different versions. How is that possible? You didnt respond to my question: "Are they attributed with starting the religion of Christianity? If Jews believed in Jesus as being God and had to crucify him, why Christianity at all?".
I'm not Christian or Jewish, so I'm not the right person to answer your last question. As for your penultimate question, Christians claim that Jesus founded the religion of Christianity. However, I'd recommend reading a modern book like
Lost Christianities to see all the various Christianities that existed in the first couple of centuries after his death, before accepting their view.
Bible versions differ in several ways:
1. The books that are included. Remember that the Qu'ran is one book. The Bible is a collection
of books, some of which are considered the word of God, but others of which are merely
inspired.
2. The orignal manuscripts used to make the translation. No one has the first copy of any book
of the Bible any more than anyone has the very first written version of every one of Mohammed's
sayings. Also, none of the earliest manuscripts of any of the books of the Bible is complete, and
the various early manuscripts are not identical.
3. Translation. Few modern Christians can read Greek, so many translations exist. As there is
no 1:1 correspondence between Greek and English, many translations exist within a single
language too, even if the two groups chose the same set of early manuscripts, which rarely
happens.
As regards to the Quran, it was voiced by Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions memorized those words by heart, wrote it down, and the compilation was completed by Caliph Osman. Since then, the words of Quran have been preserved by thousands, if not millions of Muslims who have memorized it. Tradition on the other hand is referred to as Sunnah and Hadith (the practices and words of Muhammad). They are the second source of Islamic law. They are definitely traditions, while the Quran is not.
We're using different meanings of the word tradition. The tradition I'm referring to is that the angel Gabriel brought the words of God to Mohammed who gave them to his followers, who wrote it down. I'm not Muslim either, so I don't believe in any miracles there either.
No, it's not a new meaning of the word. It's both the traditional meaning of the word and the one we find today on dictionary.com:
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
Even the primary usage of the word jew isn't limited solely to religion.
So being a Jew does not mean you are a follower of Judaism?
Correct.
I know there are conformist Muslims and non-conformists, but being Muslim means one who has descended from the follower of Islam. Would not being a Jew imply the same, whether you are a conformist Jew or a non-conformist? There are non-semitic people (I think) who follow Judaism. What will they be called if not Jews?
Words in English have multiple meanings. Even the word English itself refers to both a language and to an ethic group who originated that language. Jew means both a follower of Judaism and a member of the Jewish ethnic group. I don't see why this is such a problem for you.
I have objections about your statement regarding non-jews being equal citizens in Israel, but lets leave that. I dont know about you, but I think its just wrong to claim a land as being one's own by birthright or on the basis of it being one's own because once upon a time, it was.
Agreed. If we all claimed the land where our ancestors lived thousands of years ago, there would be a huge amount of overlap, so even if there was a moral validity to those claims, they'd be impossible to satisfy.