Why do Muslims have such a hard-on against Jews?

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
hadith

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary' ... Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Koran, Sura 5:71-73)


"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)


"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)


"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)


"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)


"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)


"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)


"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)


"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

Half of those are incorrect and the others and taken out of context. There is one version of the Quran and it is an Arabic. Want to know the true meaning? Go learn Arabic. Your information is misleading and incorrect.
Actually 90% of that thing is wrong. Wonder why you even have these anti-Muslim sites in your history anyways .. good to have hate in you, hate which is lead by lies.

actually of those are correct, at least according to muslims i know. and there is not too many ways to take many of those in a different context

and while you are labeling people "hater" keep in mind he is not the one blowing up reastaurants and kidnapping people to cut their heads off and make movies of it...

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
hadith

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary' ... Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Koran, Sura 5:71-73)


"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)


"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)


"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)


"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)


"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)


"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)


"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)


"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

Half of those are incorrect and the others and taken out of context. There is one version of the Quran and it is an Arabic. Want to know the true meaning? Go learn Arabic. Your information is misleading and incorrect.
Actually 90% of that thing is wrong. Wonder why you even have these anti-Muslim sites in your history anyways .. good to have hate in you, hate which is lead by lies.

actually of those are correct, at least according to muslims i know. and there is not too many ways to take many of those in a different context

and while you are labeling people "hater" keep in mind he is not the one blowing up reastaurants and kidnapping people to cut their heads off and make movies of it...

How many Muslims do you REALLY know? Seriously you mean you brought these exact meanings up with one of them and they knew instantly what you were talking about? They happen to memorize the entire Quran I guess cause I find it hard to believe that anyone would know exactly what Surah you were talking about without having a Quran on hand. If they did have a Quran on hand you would have had a look for yourself then...

As for the chopping the heads off thing.. I hope no minority ever does you any accidental harm cause you will forever hate that minority since the actions of 1 person make you judge their entire race/religion.

 

[Dangermouse33]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
hadith

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary' ... Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Koran, Sura 5:71-73)


"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)


"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)


"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
.

So is the concensus here that these quotes (I didn't include most of them for length purposes) mistranslated? Or are from a "extremist" version of the Quran?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: athithi
The term, "Hindu India" is a quite misleading. There are about 140 million muslims in India, and with very few exceptions (primarily in Kashmir, Gujrat and parts of Maharashtra states), they are very well integrated and well-taken care of, sometimes to the point of appeasement. Muslims are very prominent in the Indian government, sports, businesses, arts, sciences, etc.

India is a soft-state against terrorism and would rather negotiate or succumb to demands than stand up and fight. Mostly, this is justifiable if you take India's economic, military and societal limitations along with the tradition of non-violence into consideration. Pakistan is about the only country that we make fewest concessions for. It's more a lack of political will than any statement on the abilities of the average Indian. There is no braver soul than the Indian soldier, no greater strategist than the Indian General, just to set the record straight!

Over and above all this, India has traditionally maintained very good relations with the Arab states (including Iraq, to a very small extent) and was one of the first nations to recognize Palestine as an independent state. Arafat has in the past been considered a friend of India (or vice-versa). Until very recently (when the so-called Hindu nationalists came into power), India had few ties with Israel, if any. In fact, if my memory serves me right, India has even boycotted Israel at sporting events, such as the Davis Cup for Tennis. With the end of the cold war, India has also drawn much closer to Israel, but for obvious reasons still maintains a safe distance.

As for Bangladesh, it is also a Muslim-majority state and with it's current government, is actually closer to Pakistan than to India (which helped liberate it in 1971).

In fact, India is one of the greatest sufferers of Islamic terrorism, but the above are some of the reasons why there is no international coalition of Islamic states against India. I might be underplaying the impact of India's diplomatic successes here, but I would rather err on the side of cynicism.

This is quite a bit of Indian song singing :roll:
And even though this is off topic, India suffers more from Lalu Prasad Yadav's 'terrorism' than what you refer to as 'Islamic' terrorism.
Oh wait, is the Gujrat Massace of over a thousand Muslims while the Chief Minister and the police watched it happen an example of what you call "Islamic terrorism"?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: glenn1
I'm not quite sure I get the fixation on Jews by the Muslims. It seems like a more fitting target of their rage would have been the British or French who ruled various Arab states as protectorates for decades. Instead, even before there was an Israel, the Muslim community was focused on Jews. Hell, they managed to put together an pan-arab army to attack Israel when it was created. No such luck for Tunisia which had been suffering under French rule since 1883 and didn't gain independence until the mid 50s. Arabs took no real role in assisting Muslim Pakistan in its multiple wars against Hindu India. Not a peep out of the Islamic world over China's repression of Muslims (which continues to this day), nor when Bangaladesh decided to seceed from Muslim Pakistan, or when the Christian Phlangists in Lebanon used to butcher up Shiites or Druze, not to mention secular and Ba'athist Syria more or less turning the country into a client state.

So what gives?

I dont think Muslims have a fixation on Jews. I think anyone of any religion would be pissed off if you just invade their land, occupy more of their land, force curfew on a city of 2 million for a settlement of 20 thousand, build a wall, have numerous checkpoints all on the basis of claiming the land is their birthright from 3000 years or something.

And on the opposite spectrum, Jews would surely have a problem with Muslims wearing nails and explosives on their bodies and blowing themselves up in buses and cafes.

Also, I think it has more to do with Arab pride of still not being able to stamp their authority on their own land is much of a cause of the friction. And the above doesnt include the authority Israel stamps on its neighbors due to the financial, economic and political support of the US.

IMO, I think the Palestinians/Arabs are much worse off than the Jews. From what I have heard from Israeli Arabs, their rights compared to the Israeli Jew rights also fall into second or third class status.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Dangermouse33

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
hadith

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary' ... Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Koran, Sura 5:71-73)


"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)


"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)


"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
.

So is the concensus here that these quotes (I didn't include most of them for length purposes) mistranslated? Or are from a "extremist" version of the Quran?

I wont interpret each and every one of the out-of-context statement above.

Most of the time when Quran/Hadith speaks of waging war, killing enemies, fighting, etc... it is usually meant to wage battle against yourself to do good deeds, follow the right path, let not the devil influence your actions, etc, etc.

If in context, a statement does not imply that, it is meant to say that fight those who oppress you, and God will aid you in battle. Sort of a divine message to fight in the name of God.

Ofcourse, Muslims dont believe in the concept of trinity. Statements which can be taken as 'warnings' from God are meant to deter Muslims from straying from the belief of oneness of God.

As for the Jews, (I read that) they believe God can be wrong. I dont recall the exact historical incident but the gist of it was that the Jewish people had constructed some building and God made it crumble, and the Jewish people complained to God who then cried and apologised. Correct me if I am wrong... I read this quite a while back. So warnings for Muslims against Jewish people are meant to imply that their teachings should not be adhered to by the Muslims.

Simple. If I was to quote Biblical references, I am sure to piss of many of you. A certain section of the Bible (King James version - of the 26000 different versions) has what I consider to be highly pornographic content. I am sure God wouldnt tell His messengers to convey such ideas to His people.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: Sultan

This is quite a bit of Indian song singing :roll:
And even though this is off topic, India suffers more from Lalu Prasad Yadav's 'terrorism' than what you refer to as 'Islamic' terrorism.
Oh wait, is the Gujrat Massace of over a thousand Muslims while the Chief Minister and the police watched it happen an example of what you call "Islamic terrorism"?

Can you tell me what happened to trigger that incident (clue: check a link that I'd posted)? Not that the retaliation was justified in any way. Narendra Modi should be publicly executed, I'll grant you that. If we are discussing the ills that affect India, Islamic fundamentalism would rank behind illiteracy and corruption - but not much further down.

Roll your eyes all you want, until they fall right off. I am a proud Indian and my nation has made enough progress that I view it with far more pride than embarrassment.

BTW, what benevolent nation do you come from?

EDIT: You have a serious comprehension problem. I just went over my older post again and it is extremely objective in its content, with only a reasonable expression of patriotism.

 

[RabidMongoose]

athithi, I believe that Sultan is originally from Pakistan.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
athithi, I believe that Sultan is originally from Pakistan.

What a shocker!

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: Sultan

This is quite a bit of Indian song singing :roll:
And even though this is off topic, India suffers more from Lalu Prasad Yadav's 'terrorism' than what you refer to as 'Islamic' terrorism.
Oh wait, is the Gujrat Massace of over a thousand Muslims while the Chief Minister and the police watched it happen an example of what you call "Islamic terrorism"?

Can you tell me what happened to trigger that incident (clue: check a link that I'd posted)? Not that the retaliation was justified in any way. Narendra Modi should be publicly executed, I'll grant you that. If we are discussing the ills that affect India, Islamic fundamentalism would rank behind illiteracy and corruption - but not much further down.

Roll your eyes all you want, until they fall right off. I am a proud Indian and my nation has made enough progress that I view it with far more pride than embarrassment.

BTW, what benevolent nation do you come from?

EDIT: You have a serious comprehension problem. I just went over my older post again and it is extremely objective in its content, with only a reasonable expression of patriotism.

According to a report by Times of India, the trigger was a bunch of RSS activists were travelling on this train, in which they were behaving quite obnoxiously. The train stopped at a village where some of the activists went to a kholi (you'd know what that is, innit? ) owned by a Muslim and had tea. They didnt pay for it and when the old man (owner) persisted in asking them for their dues, they started beating him up. The old man's daughter ran over and covered her father. The activists grabbed her and forcibly took her into the train into a closed compartment. The screams for help brought about some of the local folk who jumped on the train after it had started moving and pulled the emergency handle. The train stumbled to a stop at a Muslim majority village. People jumped on the train and demanded release of the girl, and in the ensuing commotion, some villages threw Molotov cocktails (sp?) into the train which had the devastating effect. I dont think "retaliation" is the word I would use in the brutal mayhem that ensued from that incident.

Regardless, both communities, Muslims and Indians (Indians) played their role in the flare up. I just have a problem with the administration's efforts to stop the massacre. I also have a problem with you labelling everything done by SOME Muslims as "Islamic terrorism" or "Islamic fundamentalism". Why do you not refer to Hindus as Hindu terrorists or Hindu fundamentalists based on acts of the BJP and the RSS? I dont label any act of violence to be associated with religion, why do you?

Anyways, I agree with you about your feelings about the Chief Minister Modi.

I dont quite understand what you mean by Muslims being "appeased" in India. Are you saying they are better off than the Sikhs, Hindus and the Christians in certain cases? Going by estimates, every 7th or 8th Indian is a Muslim. If they manage to reach the status of President (which under BJP I saw more as a political move), its not an appeasement. Tariq Aziz, a Christian, was in the inner circles of Saddam Hussein. Is that appeasement too?

You should be a proud Indian, that country has progressed dramatically. But dont go off giving comments such as There is no braver soul than the Indian soldier, no greater strategist than the Indian General, just to set the record straight!. Thats not pride, thats vanity, and arguably an opinionated and false one.

To sum it up, I dont have a comprehension problem, but I do have a problem with you associating an act of violence with a religion. I dont see that as being tolerant towards the Muslim citizens of India and I dont believe they would appreciate you saying "India is one of the greatest sufferers of Islamic terrorism".

 

[1EZduzit]

Why do the stars fall from the heavens?

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why do the stars fall from the heavens?

Why have Cristians killed more jews than muslims?

 

[1EZduzit]

I would guess it had something to do with WWII? I would betr Christians have killed more Muslims then Jews also.

So what's the point?

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I would guess it had something to do with WWII? I would betr Christians have killed more Muslims then Jews also.

So what's the point?

That out "good" faith is inherently evil?

 

[1EZduzit]

I would have to agree that religion is the cause of many terrible wars. At least it is the given reason.

It's much easier to justify killing another human being if "God" is on your side. Of course the funny thing about that is both sides believe theirs is the "true" cause.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: Sultan

According to a report by Times of India, the trigger was a bunch of RSS activists were travelling on this train, in which they were behaving quite obnoxiously. The train stopped at a village where some of the activists went to a kholi (you'd know what that is, innit? ) owned by a Muslim and had tea. They didnt pay for it and when the old man (owner) persisted in asking them for their dues, they started beating him up. The old man's daughter ran over and covered her father. The activists grabbed her and forcibly took her into the train into a closed compartment. The screams for help brought about some of the local folk who jumped on the train after it had started moving and pulled the emergency handle. The train stumbled to a stop at a Muslim majority village. People jumped on the train and demanded release of the girl, and in the ensuing commotion, some villages threw Molotov cocktails (sp?) into the train which had the devastating effect. I dont think "retaliation" is the word I would use in the brutal mayhem that ensued from that incident.

Regardless, both communities, Muslims and Indians (Indians) played their role in the flare up. I just have a problem with the administration's efforts to stop the massacre. I also have a problem with you labelling everything done by SOME Muslims as "Islamic terrorism" or "Islamic fundamentalism". Why do you not refer to Hindus as Hindu terrorists or Hindu fundamentalists based on acts of the BJP and the RSS? I dont label any act of violence to be associated with religion, why do you?

Anyways, I agree with you about your feelings about the Chief Minister Modi.

I dont quite understand what you mean by Muslims being "appeased" in India. Are you saying they are better off than the Sikhs, Hindus and the Christians in certain cases? Going by estimates, every 7th or 8th Indian is a Muslim. If they manage to reach the status of President (which under BJP I saw more as a political move), its not an appeasement. Tariq Aziz, a Christian, was in the inner circles of Saddam Hussein. Is that appeasement too?

You should be a proud Indian, that country has progressed dramatically. But dont go off giving comments such as There is no braver soul than the Indian soldier, no greater strategist than the Indian General, just to set the record straight!. Thats not pride, thats vanity, and arguably an opinionated and false one.

To sum it up, I dont have a comprehension problem, but I do have a problem with you associating an act of violence with a religion. I dont see that as being tolerant towards the Muslim citizens of India and I dont believe they would appreciate you saying "India is one of the greatest sufferers of Islamic terrorism".

Let me get this straight:

1. A group of Hindus provoke a group of Muslims by ostensibly indulging in a rowdy act harming a few people.
2. In retaliation, a larger group of Muslims attacks a group of Hindus (including innocents) by indulging in a more elaborate act of violence killing several people, mostly innocent women and children.
3. In retaliation to that, a Hindu mob (essentially, a much, much larger group of Hindus) attacks a much larger group of Muslims spanning several villages, massacring over a 1000 people, almost entirely innocents.
4. The pro-Hindu state govt. sits idly.

If your contention is that at No.2, Muslims were justified in retaliating, then according to your own logic, at No.3 the Hindu mob was playing by your rules. But the way I see it, an unfortunate sequence of events precipitated by the lack of response by the Gujrat govt., snowballed into the Godra massacre. But for you to absolve Muslims and place the blame entirely on Hindus and the Indian federal govt. is completely out of place and exposes your bias. Just for the record though, there are conflicting versions of how the events actually took place - the implication being that the train did not co-incidentally stop at a Muslim majority village. This suggests that the Muslim attack on the Hindu pilgrims was planned and executed - you don't just concoct Molotov cocktails sitting at a tea shop. I am running short of time here, but if possible I will post the references.

I seriously hope your statement "both communities, Muslims and Indians", is a typo - Muslims in India are Indians - they've never had to prove their Indianness to right-minded Indians, and they definitely don't have to prove it to Pakistanis. Also, I don't refer to Muslims as Islamic terrorists. You are mis-stating my words. Even if a Buddhist suddenly decided that he would have to kill people to please Allah, he becomes an Islamic terrorist.

The BJP and the RSS both have a pro-Hindu agenda - the BJP through political, democratic means and the RSS through idealogical means. There is an immense difference between the two. Their common aim is a Ram Rajya - a government culturally steeped in Hindu tradition - but the BJP for the most part believes Hinduism as an aspect of governance can be fulfilled within democratic means, whereas, the RSS is happy to leave out Muslims in order to achieve Ram Rajya. For someone like you to claim that they are one and the same only indicates a lack of understanding of the distinction. Apart from what both organizations desire, the BJP is a purely political party and conscientiously works within the Constitutional framework of India in its politics. There are bad apples everywhere, but the party as a whole is fully functional, fully legal, fully constitutional and largely responsive to vox populi. To characterize them as fundamentalists is again, depictive of programmed thinking. They ran a coalition govt. with some 23 other parties for the past five years and India had done quite well under them. Today, I would happily vote them back into power if I could.

As for Muslims being appeased in India the list ranges far and wide - from Article 370 to the Shah Bano case to Haj subsidies to the reservation system to the Muslim personal law. There are plenty of things Muslims can do in India that they cannot even dream of doing in the United States. I am taking the trouble to type out all this stuff because there is very little awareness of India in the United States and when people like you compare Saddam Hussein and Tariq Aziz to Vajpayee and A P J Abdul Kalam, there are actually kids in here who might think it's true. Perhaps instead of defending my nation and her principles I should ask a few question about your country of origin first.


1. Why did Kargil happen and who architected it? What was the event (Lahore bus journey) that occured just before Kargil?
2. What is the status of Hindus in Pakistan? What is the status of Mohajirs?
3. What is the Constitution, Law and Order of Pakistan based upon? Rational principles or Religious ones?
4. What is the form of Government in Pakistan? I mean, the true form of Government - where the Lord and Supreme Dictator for Life rules...
5. Where is Osama bin Laden?
6. What are the Multi-national companies based out of Pakistan?
7. How many democratically elected governments has your country had?
8. How many of those democratically elected governments served their full term? How many of those Prime Ministers are in exile now - saved from certain execution only by the intervention of the U.S?
9. How many military dictators has Pakistan had?
10. How many wars has Pakistan lost to India? (courtesy the peerless India soldier and incomparable Indian General, thank you very much)
11. How many nuclear weapons has Pakistan procured from China?
12. How many missiles has Pakistan obtain from North Korea in exchange for nuclear technology?
13. How much nuclear technology in Pakistan has been stolen from other countries?
14. How many other countries has Pakistan sold its nuclear technology to?
15. Why was Pakistan only one of three countries to recognize the Taliban and why was it the last one to withdraw that recognition?
16. Why were Pakistani Generals airlifted out of Afghanistan when the US attacked? What were they doing there in the first place?
17. Why does Shoaib Akhtar chuck? (doesn't really matter since Sachin showed him his place in the World Cup in South Africa )

I could go on forever. Trust me, there's plenty to be proud of in my country. Perhaps you should consider defecting (if you are not a US citizen already!). You would be treated a whole lot better!

Finally, I don't associate a religion with an act of violence. The religious freaks are the ones making that association. Moreover, Hindu extremism is contained within India and that too in very specific regions and rears its ugly head in very specific instances. Islamic extremism is a GLOBAL phenomenon. There is something inherently wrong about that. But I hate Hindu fanatics more than Muslim fanatics because the Hindu fanatics have taken the world's greatest cultural and spiritual lessons and sullied them with the garb of religion - and they make people like you throw baseless accusations against objective people like me. I really need to get back to my work now but I will be looking forward to your answers, thank you!

 

[Sultan]

1. A group of Hindus provoke a group of Muslims by ostensibly indulging in a rowdy act harming a few people.
2. In retaliation, a larger group of Muslims attacks a group of Hindus (including innocents) by indulging in a more elaborate act of violence killing several people, mostly innocent women and children.
3. In retaliation to that, a Hindu mob (essentially, a much, much larger group of Hindus) attacks a much larger group of Muslims spanning several villages, massacring over a 1000 people, almost entirely innocents.
4. The pro-Hindu state govt. sits idly.

I dont think beating up an old man and forcibly taking his daughter into a locked compartment would be called "rowdy act". I am sure you can figure out the intention of those who forced her into the train. You should know what a woman honor means in that society.

By the way, according to the Indian, Ahmedabad-based Forensic Science Laboratory (FSL) have now shown that almost 60 litres of inflammable material was poured from inside the compartment before it was set on fire and therefore there is doubt as to what caused the fire.

Regardless, that was not the point of what I said. Please continue reading

If your contention is that at No.2, Muslims were justified in retaliating, then according to your own logic, at No.3 the Hindu mob was playing by your rules. But the way I see it, an unfortunate sequence of events precipitated by the lack of response by the Gujrat govt., snowballed into the Godra massacre. But for you to absolve Muslims and place the blame entirely on Hindus and the Indian federal govt. is completely out of place and exposes your bias. Just for the record though, there are conflicting versions of how the events actually took place - the implication being that the train did not co-incidentally stop at a Muslim majority village. This suggests that the Muslim attack on the Hindu pilgrims was planned and executed - you don't just concoct Molotov cocktails sitting at a tea shop. I am running short of time here, but if possible I will post the references.

emm, see, its my turn to pick on your lack of comprehension of my post. I did not absolve the Muslims. If you read carefully, I said both communities, Muslim and Hindus (yes, it was a typo, because I wrote Indians in brackets) played a part in the flare-up. I further write: I also have a problem with you labelling everything done by SOME Muslims as "Islamic terrorism" or "Islamic fundamentalism". Why do you not refer to Hindus as Hindu terrorists or Hindu fundamentalists based on acts of the BJP and the RSS? I dont label any act of violence to be associated with religion, why do you?".

By the way, you make Molotov cocktails by pouring alcohol, oil or any flammable liquid into a bottle and attaching a piece of cloth to its mouth. Its not that hard.

Here's some articles for your reference. They imply contrary to what you believe. You can have both viewpoints, and never get to the bottom of the incident. The problem I have with it again is the Administration's handling of the affair. Numerous cover-ups, failure to prevent the riots, failure to protect its citizens (both Muslims and Hindus - Indians), acquittal of those charged with the crime (17 Hindus, after eye-witnesses reversed their testimony), etc, etc. Thanks to the Indian Supreme Court which intervened and the case has been reopened in another state. Thats something I really admire - the Indian Justice System.

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Please note that none of the above links are Pakistani or anti-Indian Since I dont point to any community in causing the flare-up, I wonder why you feel that the Muslim community is to blame for the train incident - as you stated - the incident was planned and executed. That shows that the communities (you being not a Muslim I presume) arent as well-integrated as you suggested. I actually think they are.

You are mis-stating my words. Even if a Buddhist suddenly decided that he would have to kill people to please Allah, he becomes an Islamic terrorist.

Why? If some psycho suddenly kills his neighbor and tells the whole world that you spoke to him in his dreams and told him to do so, would he become a "Athithi terrorist"?? That is so ignorant man. Any person of any religion commits any act of violence, are you going to associate the religion with him being a terrorist? Murderers kill people for whatever reason, you dont call them terrorists. I dont see you calling Narender Modi a Hindu terrorist. Or the RSS. Or the VHP. But any act of violence by anyone supposedly done in the name of Allah makes a person an "ISLAMIC" terrorist? Tomorrow, you go nuts and kill your neighbor and say Allah told you. There you go, another "ISLAMIC" terrorist? wtf?

but the BJP for the most part believes Hinduism as an aspect of governance can be fulfilled within democratic means, whereas, the RSS is happy to leave out Muslims in order to achieve Ram Rajya. For someone like you to claim that they are one and the same only indicates a lack of understanding of the distinction.

I never claimed as such. No need to put words into my mouth.

Today, I would happily vote them back into power if I could.

So the Indian populace - with you being "A" representative would vote for a government "culturally steeped in Hindu tradition" in a constitutionally secular country? And I thought people said Pakistan has a problem with Mullahs running the government. I guess the majority of the Indian populace has a different idea about how they want their government

Let me go ahead and answer your points. I am not trying to enter a pissing contest and I hope you feel the same way.

1. Why did Kargil happen and who architected it? What was the event (Lahore bus journey) that occured just before Kargil?

Has nothing to do with Muslim rights in India. The above just highlights the affixation of some Indians with Pakistan. I have not mentioned Pakistan in any of my posts and I see no reason why you need to bring it up. Since you did, I have no problem in saying the government of Pakistan was at fault in that incident. But then again, who has defied UN Resolutions for over 50 years in giving Kashmir their right for self-determination? This is a completely different argument, lets leave it with that said.

2. What is the status of Hindus in Pakistan? What is the status of Mohajirs?

Again, has nothing to do with rights of Muslims in India. Again highlights the affixation of some Indians with Pakistan. There is a Hindu temple right down the street from where I live. The Hindus there regularly visited my place. I know prominent Hindu businessmen in Pakistan. I come from a Mohajir family. My dad is a Mohajir. He earns well enough to send me for education here. Cant say Moharjirs are not well off. Again, this is just an affixation of some Indians with Pakistan. Let Pakistan be man, they have a fraction of the land-mass, resources and infrastructure as compared to India. Thats not counting the fuedal system prevalent and all the other problems. Look up, not down. Pakistanis on the other hand compare themselve to India because India IS better off.

3. What is the Constitution, Law and Order of Pakistan based upon? Rational principles or Religious ones?

Again, it has NOTHING to do with Muslim rights in India. Here is Pakistan's constitution for your reference: Constitution. I dont distinct between rational or religious principles. You can read up the constitution if you like.

4. What is the form of Government in Pakistan? I mean, the true form of Government - where the Lord and Supreme Dictator for Life rules...

Soveriegnity belongs to God. Otherwise, the form of Government is Parlimentary. Still another example of affixation with Pakistan. Nothing from the above clarifies your statement about the "appeasement" of Muslims in India. I am wondering why RabidMongoose hasnt put forth his objection to the discrimination of Hindus as compared to Muslims in India

5. Where is Osama bin Laden?

If I knew, I'd claim the $25million on his head If you know, I suggest you call FBI.

6. What are the Multi-national companies based out of Pakistan?

I dont know. Another example of affixation with Pakistan.

7. How many democratically elected governments has your country had?

25 years under democratically elected governments. Not a good record. Too bad for Pakistanis. Shouldnt concern you but. Another example of affixation with Pakistan

8. How many of those democratically elected governments served their full term? How many of those Prime Ministers are in exile now - saved from certain execution only by the intervention of the U.S?

Not many, almost negligible governments have served their full term. I'm all in favor of execution of Ms. Bhutto and Mr. Nawaz Sharif. They've done their share of looting the people of Pakistan. Again, that shouldnt worry you. How is that related to the appeasement of Muslims in India? In the past decade, not many Indian elected governments have served their full term. Even the last government decided to hold the elections early. Who cares?

9. How many military dictators has Pakistan had?

Quite a bit. Who cares? Another example of affixation with Pakistan. Actually, many Pakistanis feel the country has been better off under military dictators. What difference does it make?

10. How many wars has Pakistan lost to India? (courtesy the peerless India soldier and incomparable Indian General, thank you very much)

Three, but Pakistan managed to carve out Azad Kashmir (or Pakistan Occupied Kashmir if you prefer). The soldiers and the generals werent able to stop that. Twice the army, three times the military budget as compared to Pakistan :roll: India was soundly defeated by China, innit?

11. How many nuclear weapons has Pakistan procured from China?

I dont know. Probably as many has India has procured from Russia. I would imagine lesser though

12. How many missiles has Pakistan obtain from North Korea in exchange for nuclear technology?

I dont know, plenty I would suppose. Just as many as India might have obtained from Russia. Oh, and if you start with India building them indigenously, why is India procuring Su37's from Russia or having a fleet of Mig21's and Mig29's? I am sure an developing an aircraft requires as much effort as a nuclear weapon or missiles. Well, nevermind. Who cares about how Pakistan obtained the missiles. They have it. Period.

13. How much nuclear technology in Pakistan has been stolen from other countries?

I dont know. Espionage is common. More power to Pakistan's espionage services

14. How many other countries has Pakistan sold its nuclear technology to?

Libya and Iran come to mind. So what? More finances to Pakistan's treasury.

15. Why was Pakistan only one of three countries to recognize the Taliban and why was it the last one to withdraw that recognition?

What difference does it make? Taliban was in power. Its stupidity on part of Pakistan's government not to recognize Israel. They are there. So whats the point in this statement?

16. Why were Pakistani Generals airlifted out of Afghanistan when the US attacked? What were they doing there in the first place?

I have no clue what you're talking about. This is the first time I've heard of this. Weird. I, a Pakistani am not aware of things that non-Pakistani are aware of. Seems you're more interested in your neighbors shenanigans

17. Why does Shoaib Akhtar chuck? (doesn't really matter since Sachin showed him his place in the World Cup in South Africa )

PM me. I'll send you a video which shows the Shoaib Akhtar's hyper-extended elbow in action. Who cares? Sachin kicked his sorry ass all over the park. Lets see who comes out on top this Saturday .

I could go on forever. Trust me, there's plenty to be proud of in my country. Perhaps you should consider defecting (if you are not a US citizen already!). You would be treated a whole lot better!

I agree, there's plenty to be proud about India. I say the same thing about my country. I get treated fine in Pakistan

Finally, I don't associate a religion with an act of violence. The religious freaks are the ones making that association. Moreover, Hindu extremism is contained within India and that too in very specific regions and rears its ugly head in very specific instances. Islamic extremism is a GLOBAL phenomenon. There is something inherently wrong about that. But I hate Hindu fanatics more than Muslim fanatics because the Hindu fanatics have taken the world's greatest cultural and spiritual lessons and sullied them with the garb of religion - and they make people like you throw baseless accusations against objective people like me. I really need to get back to my work now but I will be looking forward to your answers, thank you!

As a Muslim, I feel offended by you using the term "ISLAMIC terrorism". Terrorism is terrorism, its not caused by a religion, and not promoted by it. The terrorists dont refer to themselves as "ISLAMIC terrorists". I dont refer to Hindus committing acts of violence as Hindu terrorists. Why do you? Be it contained in just India or elsewhere, terrorism is terrorism. And it is wrong to associate it with religion. I did not accuse anyone of Hindu terrorism, so you are wrong to accuse me of baseless accusations.

I wait for your reply

 

[RabidMongoose]

I am wondering why RabidMongoose hasnt put forth his objection to the discrimination of Hindus as compared to Muslims in India

I wasn't aware of any discrimination against Muslims in India. I wasn't really a part of this conversation.

I am wondering why you still support a discriminatory systems. How anyone can have such filthy thoughts is something I can never understand. I suppose it's OK for you if people discriminate against non-Muslims, but nobody is allowed to discriminate against Muslims...

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I am wondering why RabidMongoose hasnt put forth his objection to the discrimination of Hindus as compared to Muslims in India

I wasn't aware of any discrimination against Muslims in India. I wasn't really a part of this conversation.

I am wondering why you still support a discriminatory systems. How anyone can have such filthy thoughts is something I can never understand. I suppose it's OK for you if people discriminate against non-Muslims, but nobody is allowed to discriminate against Muslims...

Sorry, but in the context of athithi statement: Muslims in India are well-taken care of to the point of "appeasement", Muslims in India are favorably discriminated, meaning non-Muslims are being discriminated AGAINST. Therefore, I stated why you didnt put forth your objection to the discriminiation of Hindus, or lets say non-Muslims in India... I didnt say anything about Muslims being discriminated against

Let me put your wonderment to rest. I dont support discriminiatory systems. I agree, how can anyone have such filthy thoughts, I can never understand.

Whats ok for me is that neither Muslims, nor non-Muslims should be discriminated against

 

[athithi]

Who's fixated with whom?!!! :shocked:

Honestly, the only reason India bothers with Pakistan is because of the constant bleeding the borders. If Pakistan did not constantly train and send in militants (and occasionally chip in with Army regulars) trust me, India would forget Pakistan in a jiffy! OTOH, you seem to have way too much interest in the ills that affect India - we're all glad for the concern, I'm sure But if you don't want me asking questions about Pakistan, you should not have started asking questions about India. It has something to do with credibility!

Simple math - there are more terrorists who claim an adherence to Islam than there are who claim adherence to other religions. If you listed the number of acts of terror, the locations in which these acts took place, the number of people killed and the barbarism involved and divide them into groups which proclaim similar intentions for doing so - one group would stand out. Care to take a guess? Care to explain that?

Here's another thought - while there are a number of terrorist attacks on Indian soil made in the name of Islam, a very small minority of them is caused by Indian Muslims. Perhaps India is doing something right by their Muslism population that is not being done elsewhere - could be education, opportunity, social equality.

Your reference to SH and TA in the same breath as ABV and APJ AK could mislead people, regardless of whether that was your intention or not.

I would vote the BJP into power, preferably in a coalition govt. because except for stray incidents like Godra, they did very well by India. Ask one Mr.Azim Premji how he fared financially. As a Hindu, I do have my biases, but applying rational thought, I see so much in Hinduism that so free of entaglement from religion or the concept of divinity that I find it a non-disruptive cultural influence for the most part.

Muslim rights in India was never the subject of this thread. You think you want to point out a problem in India, I thought perhaps you believed your own country to be picture perfect. Hence the questions.

LOL - you don't distinguish between Religious and Rational principles? LOL man, I should stop here

BTW, except for the 2 year period of Internal Emergency declared by Mrs.Indira Gandhi in 1975, every singe time the Central govt. changed administrations was through peaceful, democratic means. That appears to be a largely foreign concept in Pakistan (no, no fixation - just responding to your incorrect counter-question)

Good that many Pakistanis would rather have Military Dictatorship. That's just fine and dandy by us. Awesome. Perfect. Oh wait! Did you just say your fellow countrymen preferred living under a Military Dictatorship :Q Gawd! Things must be worse in Pakistan than I thought!!!

If Nehru had not accepted the UN declared cease-fire, Pakistan would not be extending in Military Dictatorship (minus the tribal regious where who knows what is going on) to any part of Kashmir. Indian forces beat back Pakistan all the way from Srinagar to the LoC. It wouldn't have taken much more to push further in - incidentally, which they did in 1965 and 1971 (after which India also released over 90,000 Pakistani POWs as a goodwill gesture). India was soundly defeated by China because of Nehru's shortsightedness and by politicians trying to run the war. It won't happen again in a jiffy, trust me.

India is not as beholden to Russia as Pakistan is to China (or to the U.S these days). But again, no fixation - we don't care who you got your nuclear weapons from - just make sure you get the manuals translated quickly - or you may again have to wait 5 days after India explodes her nuclear weapons first )

Libya and Iran - man, Pakistan sure knows how to pick its friends :roll:

To identify, contain, cure and eradicate terrorism, one must understand its nature. When acts of terrorism are committed in the name of a religion, it means that the strongest component of that religion is its fundamentalist arm. For instance, if the Pope were to start condoning terrorism, the wrath of Christian terrorism would be far worse than Islamic terrorism today. But thankfully, that is not the case. When it come to Hinduism, it is a religion only by some accounts. It is way too decentralized for it to ever become a major source of terrorism. It is upon Islam and its adherents to develop an antidote to its fundamentalist arm. Until then, I and the world will continue to see acts of terrorism commited by Muslims in the name of their religion as......

Finally, Narendra Modi is not just a Hindu terrorist - he is a Hindu terrorist mastermind, much in the mould of OBL, but thankfully less effective. Also, he operates within the Constitution of India and I hope the day comes when he gets his due in the Indian Supreme Court - 6' of rope :|

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I am wondering why RabidMongoose hasnt put forth his objection to the discrimination of Hindus as compared to Muslims in India

I wasn't aware of any discrimination against Muslims in India. I wasn't really a part of this conversation.

I am wondering why you still support a discriminatory systems. How anyone can have such filthy thoughts is something I can never understand. I suppose it's OK for you if people discriminate against non-Muslims, but nobody is allowed to discriminate against Muslims...

Sorry, but in the context of athithi statement: Muslims in India are well-taken care of to the point of "appeasement", Muslims in India are favorably discriminated, meaning non-Muslims are being discriminated AGAINST. Therefore, I stated why you didnt put forth your objection to the discriminiation of Hindus, or lets say non-Muslims in India... I didnt say anything about Muslims being discriminated against

Let me put your wonderment to rest. I dont support discriminiatory systems. I agree, how can anyone have such filthy thoughts, I can never understand.

Whats ok for me is that neither Muslims, nor non-Muslims should be discriminated against

What kind of a sick mind would equate 'appeasement' or affirmative action to government installed mass scale discriminatory tax systems?

Hey you're not Muslim! You need to have a special tax now!!!

Disgusting. If this is any representative of the views in many of these countries, then it's no wonder why they're some of them are so backwards.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Let me put your wonderment to rest. I dont support discriminiatory systems. I agree, how can anyone have such filthy thoughts, I can never understand.

Whats ok for me is that neither Muslims, nor non-Muslims should be discriminated against

lol, this from the guy who supports outright mass-scale discrimination and possibly the execution of atheists, homosexuals, and non-Muslims. I guess you don't consider it discriminatory when you don't even consider those people as humans.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Let me put your wonderment to rest. I dont support discriminiatory systems. I agree, how can anyone have such filthy thoughts, I can never understand.

Whats ok for me is that neither Muslims, nor non-Muslims should be discriminated against

lol, this from the guy who supports outright mass-scale discrimination and possibly the execution of atheists, homosexuals, and non-Muslims. I guess you don't consider it discriminatory when you don't even consider those people as humans.

emm, i think you need some sleep. i've never supported outright mass-scale discrimination, execution of aetheists, homosexuals and non-Muslims.

get off crack whacko.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I am wondering why RabidMongoose hasnt put forth his objection to the discrimination of Hindus as compared to Muslims in India

I wasn't aware of any discrimination against Muslims in India. I wasn't really a part of this conversation.

I am wondering why you still support a discriminatory systems. How anyone can have such filthy thoughts is something I can never understand. I suppose it's OK for you if people discriminate against non-Muslims, but nobody is allowed to discriminate against Muslims...

Sorry, but in the context of athithi statement: Muslims in India are well-taken care of to the point of "appeasement", Muslims in India are favorably discriminated, meaning non-Muslims are being discriminated AGAINST. Therefore, I stated why you didnt put forth your objection to the discriminiation of Hindus, or lets say non-Muslims in India... I didnt say anything about Muslims being discriminated against

Let me put your wonderment to rest. I dont support discriminiatory systems. I agree, how can anyone have such filthy thoughts, I can never understand.

Whats ok for me is that neither Muslims, nor non-Muslims should be discriminated against

What kind of a sick mind would equate 'appeasement' or affirmative action to government installed mass scale discriminatory tax systems?

Hey you're not Muslim! You need to have a special tax now!!!

Disgusting. If this is any representative of the views in many of these countries, then it's no wonder why they're some of them are so backwards.

why should any person of one religion be "appeased" and not the other. check your dictionary again, i think thats what you mean my discrimination.

you can refrain from insulting me personally.

you're in the same place i am. something must be right in my country that i can afford the same sort of education you did. or did you actually get an education? saw you studied in Vanderbilt. interestingly, i live in the same state

 

[Sultan]

Who's fixated with whom?!!!

Honestly, the only reason India bothers with Pakistan is because of the constant bleeding the borders. If Pakistan did not constantly train and send in militants (and occasionally chip in with Army regulars) trust me, India would forget Pakistan in a jiffy! OTOH, you seem to have way too much interest in the ills that affect India - we're all glad for the concern, I'm sure But if you don't want me asking questions about Pakistan, you should not have started asking questions about India. It has something to do with credibility!

many pakistanis look up to india as a role model for progress. therefore, they have a reason to be fixated. no reason for indians to do the same sending in militants is a baseless charge that i must categorically deny being a Pakistani. the government of Pakistan only supports the "freedom fighters" morally and diplomatically

its not the 'ills' that affect India that I am interested in. the ills range from poverty to illiteracy, blah blah. My post stated, and I repeat a SECOND time: just have a problem with the administration's efforts to stop the massacre. I also have a problem with you labelling everything done by SOME Muslims as "Islamic terrorism" or "Islamic fundamentalism". Why do you not refer to Hindus as Hindu terrorists or Hindu fundamentalists based on acts of the BJP and the RSS? I dont label any act of violence to be associated with religion, why do you?

Simple math - there are more terrorists who claim an adherence to Islam than there are who claim adherence to other religions. If you listed the number of acts of terror, the locations in which these acts took place, the number of people killed and the barbarism involved and divide them into groups which proclaim similar intentions for doing so - one group would stand out. Care to take a guess? Care to explain that?

wtf? 60000 people have died in Kashmir, hows that for Math? how about Rwanda, Somalia, a million humans in each country, and the list goes on. Did you witness the barbarism in those acts of terror? Disregard Kashmir as an example, as it'd hit the wrong nerve. I just quoted an example. Did YOU divide these people into groups and see who stood out? Islam is not a group. The term "Islamic terrorist" is incorrect. You should stop using that.

Here's another thought - while there are a number of terrorist attacks on Indian soil made in the name of Islam, a very small minority of them is caused by Indian Muslims. Perhaps India is doing something right by their Muslism population that is not being done elsewhere - could be education, opportunity, social equality.

I think any time any attack happens in India, be it an act of some psycho, or murderer, or whatever, it is invariably linked to terrorism. I remember the Godhra incident being blamed on ISI to cause terrorism :roll: and the subsequent riots as well. Was that an example of the "terrorist attacks" you speak of? I agree Indian Muslims have been very active participant in India's progress. Please provide some factual basis of your argument: "while there are a number of terrorist attacks on Indian soil made in the name of Islam, a very small minority of them is caused by Indian Muslims". Seems very irrelevant to me. I think you're just using it to emphasize your label of "Islamic terrorism" when many of your own fellow countrymen dissociate the actions of the minority with their religion.

Your reference to SH and TA in the same breath as ABV and APJ AK could mislead people, regardless of whether that was your intention or not.

Why? I view both as a political manouver. Nothing more, nothing less. Kudos to ABV for his political savvy. I have no objection.

I would vote the BJP into power, preferably in a coalition govt. because except for stray incidents like Godra, they did very well by India. Ask one Mr.Azim Premji how he fared financially. As a Hindu, I do have my biases, but applying rational thought, I see so much in Hinduism that so free of entaglement from religion or the concept of divinity that I find it a non-disruptive cultural influence for the most part.

More power to you. You have a democrat government. But please dont belittle what happened in Godhra as being a "stray incident". Amiz Premji, who I didnt know was a Muslim, has been doing farely well even before BJP came into power. As I am not that familiar with Hinduism, I get the understanding from you that its more of culture phenomena than religion. Would you elaborate what you mean by "non-disruptive cultural influence"?

Muslim rights in India was never the subject of this thread. You think you want to point out a problem in India, I thought perhaps you believed your own country to be picture perfect. Hence the questions

I really dont care much about Muslim rights in India. Please read above the italic statement to know what about your post bothered me.

The rest of your post I'll skip, coz I can sit and argue each point.

Thank you for calling Mr. Modi a "Hindu terrorist mastermind". I dont agree with that term, it doesnt make me feel any better and I still think it is wrong for you or anyone to associate a religion with an act of violence. Each religions mainstay is its emphasis on peace. It should not be associated with an act of violence.

Wanna bet $5 Pakistan will beat India this Sat?