Question Why do NVMe drives with Phison E12 controller (MyDigitalSSD BPX PRO and Corsair MP510) have a much higher TBW warranty compared to others?

[UsandThem]

For example, both the MP510 and BPX PRO (480 GB version) comes with a 800 TBW warranty. While I know the stated TBW isn't a true reflection on how much the drive can write (or will last), it still is a significantly longer warranty than companies like Samsung (not counting their PRO drives), WD, Adata, Crucial, Intel, Plextor, etc. give. which typically are in the 200 - 300 TBW range in the 500 GB range. I can see Corsair being able to offer such a generous warranty, but a much smaller company like MyDigitalSSD I was a little surprised at the TBW warranty when their drive first launched.

Is this due to the Phison controller being that much better with NAND wear, or is it just the extra over-provisioning amount allocated compared to other drives? I guess it could also simply a marketing tool knowing that most drives will last that long anyways? Both of these use Toshiba 64L TLC, which some competing drives also use, so I know it isn't that. Just something I thought about after reading the reviews.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/mydigitalssd-bpx-pro-nvme-ssd,5830.html

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-force-mp510-ssd,5848.html

 

[cbn]

800 TBW for 480GB 3D TLC is better than the 3D MLC Samsung 860 Pro.

So I wonder what happens with SATA SSDs using Phison S12 (which also has LDPC 3.0)?

 

[cbn]

Is this due to the Phison controller being that much better with NAND wear, or is it just the extra over-provisioning amount allocated compared to other drives? I guess it could also simply a marketing tool knowing that most drives will last that long anyways? Both of these use Toshiba 64L TLC, which some competing drives also use, so I know it isn't that. Just something I thought about after reading the reviews.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/mydigitalssd-bpx-pro-nvme-ssd,5830.html

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-force-mp510-ssd,5848.html

Toshiba TR200 with 64L Toshiba 3D TLC (and Phison S11) has TBW of 120TB....so the increased endurance is a combination of the increased ECC and the presence of the DRAM buffer.

 

[UsandThem]

Unless I'm looking at the TR200 specs wrong, that is a DRAMless drive.

 

[cbn]

Unless I'm looking at the TR200 specs wrong, that is a DRAMless drive.

Yep. It is dram-less and SATA.

I believe a better comparison is 512GB MydigitalSSD SBX with 375 TBW. (It uses Phison E8 NVMe controller with DRAM buffer and 64L Toshiba 3D TLC.)

800 TBW vs. 375 TBW vs. 120 TBW......pretty big spread between the three controllers using the same generation Toshiba 3D TLC.

 

[cbn]

Here is an interesting TBW comparison:

1. Toshiba TR200 480GB has TBW of 120.

2. Kingston A400 480GB with Toshiba 15nm TLC has TBW of 160.

Both SSDs have Phison S11 controllers and Toshiba NAND.....but ironically the SSD with 15nm TLC has 33% more TBW than the drive with 64L 3D TLC.

 

[cbn]

I wonder what the TBW will be for the E13?

https://www.phison.com/en/company/n...s/event/971-consumer-electronics-show-2019_en

4th Gen LDPC....isn't that even better than the E12 which has LDPC 3.0?

P.S. My guess is that SSDs with E12 and S12 (both I assume with LDPC 3.0) will be primarily used with 3D TLC as performance drives (as well as higher capacity drives with 3D QLC*) and E13 and S13 will be used primarily with 3D QLC. (This assuming Phison S13 has LDPC 4.0 like the E13 controller).

*E12 and S12 can hold up to 8TB NAND while E13 and S13 can handle up to 2TB NAND.

 

[UsandThem]

Interesting. Not bad (claimed) performance for a DRAMless drive NVMe drive. Lower specs compared to their E12 controller, but could be interesting if their partners price it right.

 

[cbn]

Interesting. Not bad (claimed) performance for a DRAMless drive NVMe drive. Lower specs compared to their E12 controller, but could be interesting if their partners price it right.

Closest competition that I can find (so far) would be HP EX900 (SM2263XT PCIe 3.0 x 4 dram-less NVMe controller with 3D TLC NAND):

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAA7W8F97616&Description=hp ex900&cm_re=hp_ex900-_-9SIAA7W8F97616-_-Product

TBW is 200 for the 500GB model according to this review----> https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/hp_ex900_500gb_m_2_ssd_review,1.html (FWIW, HP EX920 512GB also has a TBW of 200---> https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/hp-ex920-ssd,5527.html )

 

[UsandThem]

They aren't that competitive on that HP drive compared to what the EX920 sold for when on sale (which was pretty often). They've really got to price their DRAMless and QVL drives lower for them to make sense (at least to me). Right now there is a $6 difference between the EX900 and EX920: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820326779

 

[cbn]

They aren't that competitive on that HP drive compared to what the EX920 sold for when on sale (which was pretty often). They've really got to price their DRAMless and QVL drives lower for them to make sense (at least to me). Right now there is a $6 difference between the EX900 and EX920: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820326779

I agree with you, but in all fairness the $84.99 price for HP EX920 happened 2/1/2019:

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/mNx2FT/hp-ex920-512gb-m2-2280-solid-state-drive-2yy46aaabc

(Before that price was $89.99)

Meanwhile HP EX900 dropped $1 today.....before that it was consistently $79.99 with a brief stint (on 1/28-1/29) at $74.99:

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/7stQzy/hp-ex900-500mb-m2-2280-solid-state-drive-2yy44aaabc

 

[UsandThem]

True, but with the downward pricing all year on SSDs, a person would be much better of buying the EX920 over the EX900 with such a small price difference. I imagine the price of the EX950 will fall down to these levels once HP is able to move their remainder of the EX920.

That said, the new QVL SSDs haven't fallen as quickly as I thought they would, and in some cases are more expensive than their better-performing counterparts. A person who doesn't keep on this sort of thing would be wise to do a little research before buying.

I still remember a user we had here briefly who only signed up to whine about buying a DRAMless Sandisk SSD with really bad performance to save like $10 over the Sandisk Ultra 3D NAND version (WD Blue 3D NAND copy). He just refused to take any personal responsibility since he failed to know exactly what he was buying.

 

[cbn]

True, but with the downward pricing all year on SSDs, a person would be much better of buying the EX920 over the EX900 with such a small price difference.

With Host memory buffer in Windows 10 I think for most practical purposes it would be pretty close though. (EDIT: Assuming enough RAM, of course, is present in the system)

P.S. I also noticed 4K QD1 read is very close.

 

[UsandThem]

Yeah, I guess it would really come down to those few people who write and move very large files on a regular basis....definitely not how most people use their drives in their PCs.

That said, I have a hard time leaving performance on the table for a few bucks. I could easily get buy with lower tier drive for sure, and if the budget offerings were priced lower, I could go with one of them and save money. But I think we probably have another year of SSD pricing volatility where the budget and performance parts will not really be much difference in price. Heck, the Samsung 970 / 860 PRO drives have even started falling somewhat in price over the last month or so!

 

[Billy Tallis]

(EDIT: Assuming enough RAM, of course, is present in the system)

The actual memory usage of HMB is a drop in the bucket. I think the most I've seen any drive ask for so far is in the 40-60MB range.

 

[Johnny Lucky]

UsandThem: You posted the following: "For example, both the MP510 and BPX PRO (480 GB version) comes with a 800 TBW warranty"

I do not know of any ssd manufacturer that uses TBW for a warranty. As far as I know all manufacturer warranties for consumer ssd's are expressed in years. The warranties are usually for either 3 or 5 years. There are a couple of exceptions on the length of the warranty. A bigger problem with endurance is that manufacturers express endurance four different ways. I found that out the hard way about 18 months ago when I tried to add endurance estimates to an ssd database I maintain. On top of that about one third of the ssd's did not come with any endurance estimates at all.

I checked the links you provided and sure enough the warranties for the ssd's you mentioned as well as numerous others mentioned in the articles are expressed in years.

I also checked half a dozen web sites of well known ssd companies and they still use years for warranties.

Historical Trivia - Years ago Plextor introduced an ssd that came with a 10 year warranty. Samsung had just released a new model with a 5 year warranty. When Samsung found out about the Plextor warranty, Samsung increased the warranty on their new model from 5 to 10 years. The ten year warranty did not last long. At the other extreme there are Chinese models for sale in Asian countries that only come with a one year warranty.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I do not know of any ssd manufacturer that uses TBW for a warranty.

But although warranty length may be expressed in years, I think that you will find that if you exceed the TBW rating within the warranty, that the vendors will refuse to RMA it.

Would be an interesting thing to test to be sure, I guess.

 

[Johnny Lucky]

VirtualLarry - That certainly is a possibility providing the ssd company uses TBW. Most don't. For example, while I was checking the Samsung USA web site a little while ago, the company lists 1.5 Million Hours Reliability (MTBF) instead of TBW for any capacity 860 EVO. Doesn't mater whether it is 128 GB or 2TB capacity.

I am a 70 year old senior citizen who is growing old disgracefully. I don't think I could live long enough to rack up 1.5 million hours. Hmmm 1.5 million hours divided by 24 hours in a day equals 62,500 days. Hmm 62,550 days divided by 365 days in a year equals 171.2 years. Nope, definitely won't live long enough let alone wear out the ssd during the 5 year warranty period.

 

[UsandThem]

But although warranty length may be expressed in years, I think that you will find that if you exceed the TBW rating within the warranty, that the vendors will refuse to RMA it.

Would be an interesting thing to test to be sure, I guess.

This is what I commonly see expressed for warranties for SSDs. It's almost always 'x' amount of years, or 'x' amount of TBW, whichever comes first.

Since Samsung is king, I'll just use the 970 EVO as an example.

https://www.samsung.com/us/computin.../ssd-970-evo-nvme-m2-500gb-mz-v7e500bw/#specs

 

[Johnny Lucky]

ARRRRGGGHHH! Glad I mentioned that I am growing old disgracefully.

Thanks for the enlightenment. I went back and took another look at several models. Samsung now incorporates TBW into their warranties and the TBW varies by model and capacities. My bad.

Oddly for all models they also show a MTBF of 1.5 million hours which is way beyond the warranty period.