Question why do they keep bringing out new cards

[etrin]

Since we can't get cards now, they blame everything for it.
Now we get New cards being shown that we can't get almost every day.
WHY?

 

[Mopetar]

Who advertises illegal activities openly? Don't be daft.

Also, like I said it's probably easier for me but these supposedly illegal substances than for me to buy a GPU right now. I don't know anyone who sells cocaine, but I know enough people who use it that I could likely have some within the hour if I cared to buy any.

Making mining illegal wouldn't change anything other than which countries have an even larger GPU shortage.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You've got to realize, "mining" is NOT the cause of lack of GPUs on the market. That's down to supply-side economics, of which there is an INDUSTRY-WIDE SILICON WAFER SHORTAGE. Miners make availability at retail worse, because they buy the same GPUs that you, gamers, buy, but they are, at the foremost, NOT THE CAUSE of the "shortage".

Outlawing Crypto, is equivalent to outlawing speech, because it has already been ruled that code is a form of speech, and the gov't in the USA cannot restrict your speech (1st Amendment to the US Constitution).

Anyone that wants to outlaw crypto, hates freedom, full-stop. Might as well put on your Nazi uniform and march around.

Put simply, Crypto-currencies were invented, to allow "freedom from the current Fiat banking system", allowing you to "be your own bank". Various "Privacy coins" have expanded on that mandate.

1) The issue with GPU availability, vis-a-via the effect that "miners" actually have on it, is basically down to two classes of miners:
1a) Hobby miners, the Joe Sixpack, that is computer-savvy, hears about this "mining thing", and buys a few GPUs to hook up in his house/apt. Or most likely, a gamer with a single GPU, that wants to mine on it to help pay for itself.
Nvidia's actions of nerfing the hashrate on ethereum hurts this category of miner, for no good reason, as they ARE NOT the reason that GPUs are hard to find.
1b) Commercial/business miners. These are the business entities that GPU AIBs deal with directly, and ship PALLETS of cards to, often at higher prices than gamers would pay at retail for the same cards, in order to get better availability. They also, if mining were outlawed in their jurisdiction, would simply move elsewhere, to "mining havens", like China.
NVidia's actions of nerfing, would likely get worked around fairly easily by this group, they have a lot of resources behind them.
The key to preventing this group from sucking up the supply of GPUs that are produced, is to make it un-economical. Prevent AIB partners from drop-shipping pallets, to anyone that's not an actual retailer (or possibly super-computer installation, or research facility). Force mining businesses to compete in "Newegg shuffle" for onesies, twosies, and threesies of cards, but no more. Make it economically and logistically unfeasable to procure large amounts of cards at once to fill out a warehouse full of them.

 

[simas]

You've got to realize, "mining" is NOT the cause of lack of GPUs on the market. That's down to supply-side economics, of which there is an INDUSTRY-WIDE SILICON WAFER SHORTAGE. Miners make availability at retail worse, because they buy the same GPUs that you, gamers, buy, but they are, at the foremost, NOT THE CAUSE of the "shortage".

Outlawing Crypto, is equivalent to outlawing speech, because it has already been ruled that code is a form of speech, and the gov't in the USA cannot restrict your speech (1st Amendment to the US Constitution).

Anyone that wants to outlaw crypto, hates freedom, full-stop. Might as well put on your Nazi uniform and march around.

Put simply, Crypto-currencies were invented, to allow "freedom from the current Fiat banking system", allowing you to "be your own bank". Various "Privacy coins" have expanded on that mandate.

1) The issue with GPU availability, vis-a-via the effect that "miners" actually have on it, is basically down to two classes of miners:
1a) Hobby miners, the Joe Sixpack, that is computer-savvy, hears about this "mining thing", and buys a few GPUs to hook up in his house/apt. Or most likely, a gamer with a single GPU, that wants to mine on it to help pay for itself.
Nvidia's actions of nerfing the hashrate on ethereum hurts this category of miner, for no good reason, as they ARE NOT the reason that GPUs are hard to find.
1b) Commercial/business miners. These are the business entities that GPU AIBs deal with directly, and ship PALLETS of cards to, often at higher prices than gamers would pay at retail for the same cards, in order to get better availability. They also, if mining were outlawed in their jurisdiction, would simply move elsewhere, to "mining havens", like China.
NVidia's actions of nerfing, would likely get worked around fairly easily by this group, they have a lot of resources behind them.
The key to preventing this group from sucking up the supply of GPUs that are produced, is to make it un-economical. Prevent AIB partners from drop-shipping pallets, to anyone that's not an actual retailer (or possibly super-computer installation, or research facility). Force mining businesses to compete in "Newegg shuffle" for onesies, twosies, and threesies of cards, but no more. Make it economically and logistically unfeasable to procure large amounts of cards at once to fill out a warehouse full of them.

I think in addition to what you said you will need to make mining itself economically unfeasible (demand side). Without it, none of your solutions would work at all , demand will create supply and disruptions in it aka black market.

as for 'freedom of speech' defense - BS. we are not talking about code, we are talking about creating digital assets that are then sold/used as currency. That should be taxable as any other activity performed for gain. if farmer grows crops and sells then -> it is taxed. if miner extracts precious metals from the ground and processes them -> it is taxed. Speaking of 'free speech' , if I sell my consulting services (which is me speaking answering my clients question) -> it is also taxed. This is no different, just our laws/rules did not caught up to technology yet. Eventually they would- my understanding that is already on the books (you are required to report crypto transactions) , the enforcement is lax at this point.

 

[fleshconsumed]

You've got to realize, "mining" is NOT the cause of lack of GPUs on the market. That's down to supply-side economics, of which there is an INDUSTRY-WIDE SILICON WAFER SHORTAGE. Miners make availability at retail worse, because they buy the same GPUs that you, gamers, buy, but they are, at the foremost, NOT THE CAUSE of the "shortage".

Outlawing Crypto, is equivalent to outlawing speech, because it has already been ruled that code is a form of speech, and the gov't in the USA cannot restrict your speech (1st Amendment to the US Constitution).

Anyone that wants to outlaw crypto, hates freedom, full-stop. Might as well put on your Nazi uniform and march around.

Put simply, Crypto-currencies were invented, to allow "freedom from the current Fiat banking system", allowing you to "be your own bank". Various "Privacy coins" have expanded on that mandate.

1) The issue with GPU availability, vis-a-via the effect that "miners" actually have on it, is basically down to two classes of miners:
1a) Hobby miners, the Joe Sixpack, that is computer-savvy, hears about this "mining thing", and buys a few GPUs to hook up in his house/apt. Or most likely, a gamer with a single GPU, that wants to mine on it to help pay for itself.
Nvidia's actions of nerfing the hashrate on ethereum hurts this category of miner, for no good reason, as they ARE NOT the reason that GPUs are hard to find.
1b) Commercial/business miners. These are the business entities that GPU AIBs deal with directly, and ship PALLETS of cards to, often at higher prices than gamers would pay at retail for the same cards, in order to get better availability. They also, if mining were outlawed in their jurisdiction, would simply move elsewhere, to "mining havens", like China.
NVidia's actions of nerfing, would likely get worked around fairly easily by this group, they have a lot of resources behind them.
The key to preventing this group from sucking up the supply of GPUs that are produced, is to make it un-economical. Prevent AIB partners from drop-shipping pallets, to anyone that's not an actual retailer (or possibly super-computer installation, or research facility). Force mining businesses to compete in "Newegg shuffle" for onesies, twosies, and threesies of cards, but no more. Make it economically and logistically unfeasable to procure large amounts of cards at once to fill out a warehouse full of them.

I think you underestimate mining effect on the demand. One gamer equals one videocard unit on the demand side of the curve, that's because gamer has no need for more than one card. When it comes to miners, there is no upper limit on video card demand, so long as mining ROI is 3 months (which it has been recently) they will buy every video card that hits the streets because that means more money for them. Every additional card for them is a little bit more profit for them. They're not buying them to enjoy, they've buying them because it's an investment. If you poke around the mining forums you'll see people casually having 6-12 cards mining, and that's small time operators, there are way bigger operations than that in the wild.

I think in addition to what you said you will need to make mining itself economically unfeasible (demand side). Without it, none of your solutions would work at all , demand will create supply and disruptions in it aka black market.

as for 'freedom of speech' defense - BS. we are not talking about code, we are talking about creating digital assets that are then sold/used as currency. That should be taxable as any other activity performed for gain. if farmer grows crops and sells then -> it is taxed. if miner extracts precious metals from the ground and processes them -> it is taxed. Speaking of 'free speech' , if I sell my consulting services (which is me speaking answering my clients question) -> it is also taxed. This is no different, just our laws/rules did not caught up to technology yet. Eventually they would- my understanding that is already on the books (you are required to report crypto transactions) , the enforcement is lax at this point.

It varies based on the country, but it is the law in the US that you have to report cryptocurrency games and it's been that way for a long long time. If you have any meaningful amount of crypto you will need to convert it to US dollar using large crypto exchange such as coinbase/gemini/binance and at that point IRS will catch you if you don't report it on your taxes.

 

[Mopetar]

Sales of digital assets in the form of cryptocurrencies are taxable and honest people pay their taxes. Dishonest people run the risk of being caught and reamed by the IRS. Al Capone went to jail for tax evasion, not for any of the illegal activities that made him the money he didn't pay tax on.

However, arguments about free speech aren't necessarily good ones. See how far the argument gets you if the digital code you have on a hard drive turns out to be an image of a sexually exploited child. Similarly, free speech doesn't make you immune for civil prosecution if you knowingly lie about someone to damage their reputation and harm their business. Maybe you could argue that neither of those things should be illegal or subject a person to any kind of fine or sanction, but the point is that there are already laws in place which recognize a limit to speech.

 

[VirtualLarry]

as for 'freedom of speech' defense - BS. we are not talking about code, we are talking about creating digital assets that are then sold/used as currency. That should be taxable as any other activity performed for gain. if farmer grows crops and sells then -> it is taxed. if miner extracts precious metals from the ground and processes them -> it is taxed. Speaking of 'free speech' , if I sell my consulting services (which is me speaking answering my clients question) -> it is also taxed. This is no different, just our laws/rules did not caught up to technology yet. Eventually they would- my understanding that is already on the books (you are required to report crypto transactions) , the enforcement is lax at this point.

But you were talking about making it "illegal", and not just "taxed". I have no problem with the gov't taxing income from crypto, as long as, therefore, it remains above-board and "legal".

 

[bigpow]

I have a little experience in electronics manufacturing process (20yrs), and I'm confused by the recent developments of chip makers rereleasing old fabs and board makers rereleasing them.

What's the biggest problem they're facing today? Logistics.
That's what they've been saying.
They never said anything about yield issues for new chips.

Why the heck would any company spend Millions just to retool/retrain/rebuild old production lines, if it's just an interim? Not to mention the headache of logistics of SKU, packaging, testing, etc.

It's not as simple as selling fried chicken, where if chicken is rare, you could just replace it with something else (tree bark, top soil, cat litter, etc)

I smell a rat.

Either they're lying from failing to meet yield for new gen chips,
or,
They don't think it's interim (read: this is the new normal) and they see dollar signs everywhere (enough demand to justify the costs of reopening the old production lines),
Or, something else? Maybe people who run these companies are just morons but since the universe is ramdom, being a moron and a genius means nothing.

TLDR:
- yield issues?
- greed
- random

 

[Hitman928]

I have a little experience in electronics manufacturing process (20yrs), and I'm confused by the recent developments of chip makers rereleasing old fabs and board makers rereleasing them.

What's the biggest problem they're facing today? Logistics.
That's what they've been saying.
They never said anything about yield issues for new chips.

Why the heck would any company spend Millions just to retool/retrain/rebuild old production lines, if it's just an interim? Not to mention the headache of logistics of SKU, packaging, testing, etc.

It's not as simple as selling fried chicken, where if chicken is rare, you could just replace it with something else (tree bark, top soil, cat litter, etc)

I smell a rat.

Either they're lying from failing to meet yield for new gen chips,
or,
They don't think it's interim (read: this is the new normal) and they see dollar signs everywhere (enough demand to justify the costs of reopening the old production lines),
Or, something else? Maybe people who run these companies are just morons but since the universe is ramdom, being a moron and a genius means nothing.

TLDR:
- yield issues?
- greed
- random

The production lines are still there, just not being used to capacity. When you do a production run, you buy the mask set so it's not like you have to pay that big upfront cost again, either. The assembly line is still there and compatible between processes, so really it's just a matter of do you think you can make enough money by bringing the old products back into the market and not put downward pressure on the sales price of the newer gen products. I believe the answer to the first is that the demand will eat up the supply. The answer to the second question right now is obviously you won't put downward pressure on the sales price (the price NV/AMD get anyway). The real question is, can you get the old products out again in time before demand dries up to make that money and not flood the market? That's the answer no on really knows for sure.

The other potential issue is if there is a shortage of components not related to the GPUs themselves. Things like capacitors, resistors, VRMs, substrates, etc. could all be in short supply and so bringing back older gen products doesn't make any sense if that is the case. There have been reports that this is, in fact, one of the issues in ramping up supply so then making these older parts again would only be detrimental unless you can use lower quality components for them that are in better supply.

 

[jpiniero]

I have a little experience in electronics manufacturing process (20yrs), and I'm confused by the recent developments of chip makers rereleasing old fabs and board makers rereleasing them.

Something like 40% of TSMC's business is ancient nodes. I'm not sure what the most up to date number is but it is very high.

 

[Mopetar]

Either they're lying from failing to meet yield for new gen chips,

TSMC has released public statements related to the defect density of the 7nm process. AMD later made a public announcement regarding yield claims for Zen 3 that were slightly better, which given the time between the two is certainly possible. Since it's the same process they use for their GPU, they couldn't use yields as an excuse.

Nvidia may have yield problems, but we don't really know. Less has been said about the Samsung 8nm process, but from what little I've looked into the possibility in more detail, the more I'm convinced that yields aren't a major culprit.

The most likely explanation is that there just aren't enough wafers for either company to get as much product out as they or consumers would like. AMD had to devote a massive amount of wafers to the chips for the new consoles and no one is really sure what the situation at Samsung is like.

Something like 40% of TSMC's business is ancient nodes. I'm not sure what the most up to date number is but it is very high.

It's more than that. A recent financial release from them included a statement that 5nm and 7nm represented under 50% of their revenue, which I found astounding.

 

[GrumpyMan]

Well if miners stopped using vid cards for mining, there would be a few more for gamers and at better prices. Is it the only reason there are shortages, no, but it would help somewhat. Nvidia is rumored to start to use hardware hash-rate limiters to cripple mining and I think AMD should do the same. Of course they could have some miner specific cards in their line up.

Nvidia