Why does everybody say wait for nforce4 ?

[Markfw]

OK, my list below:
1) most people here don't want to spend $600,$500, and many even $400 on a video card.
2) AGP is the same speed as PCI Express (single slot)
3) nforce3 has all the feature most people want, except a few want SLI
4) 2 SLI cards are only 160-180% of one card in performance.
5) nforce4 is guaranteed to be more than nforce3 in price.

So for the majority of people, what does this buy them ? Like if they don't want to spend $400 in a 6800GT, why buy 2 6600GT (or whatever) for $500-$600 ? Doesn;t make any sense to me. And yes, I read all the nifty features of nforce4 on the review, but what else buys us anything ? 2 channel SATA at 300 ? I can get U320 SCSI in one disk that will probably beat a raid0 300 SATA, and maybe even for the same price ! (just not as much disk space)

So list what everybody but the rich people will get from nforce4 that nforce3 doesn't get them, I want to know, maybe I missed the boat.

 

[Adn4n]

Hear, hear. 939 is something that I might get in a year or so.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Hear, hear. 939 is something that I might get in a year or so.

You can get 939 on nforce3 or VIA KT800pro chipsets !!!

 

[Adn4n]

But the 939s do not add much performance over a cheaper 754, and VIA is dead to me. Nforce 4 is the only viable option of the 3.

 

[charloscarlies]

Right on Mark! I'm glad I didn't wait...definitely enjoying the 64-bit goodness right now.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
But the 939s do not add much performance over a cheaper 754, and VIA is dead to me. Nforce 4 is the only viable option of the 3.

But 939 now has a (NF3) (I have never had a problem with any via based motherboad [and every one of my AMD based boards have been VIA]large upgrade path in the future should you choose to except it. With 90nm 3000 parts that overclock to near FX-55 levels and dual channel chipset why would you get a 754 board at this point

 

[charloscarlies]

Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33

Originally posted by: Adn4n
But the 939s do not add much performance over a cheaper 754, and VIA is dead to me. Nforce 4 is the only viable option of the 3.

But a humongous upgrade path in the future should you choose to except it. With 90nm 3000 parts that overclock to near FX-55 levels and dual channel chipset why would you get a 754 board at this point

Look at the rig in my sig....

-Sempron 3100 - $99 (or ~$135 for the A64 2800 if you'd like)
-Chaintech VNF3-250 - $70

Both the A64 and Sempron hit 2.4 ghz with the retail HSF from my experiences.

This comes out less than $200 for a rig that'll keep up with a 3700 or so. This makes everything else not worth the extra money IMHO. Now I know people keep arguing upgrade path. But I will most likely be able to sell my $170 investment at a very small loss several months from now and upgrade anyways.

The reason people go 754 still is price/performance...simple as that. Dual channel is hardly worth it anyways.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
But the 939s do not add much performance over a cheaper 754, and VIA is dead to me. Nforce 4 is the only viable option of the 3.

OK, again, nforce3 and nforce4 are BOTH for socket 939. So what does nforce4 buy you personally ?

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Originally posted by: Adn4n
But the 939s do not add much performance over a cheaper 754, and VIA is dead to me. Nforce 4 is the only viable option of the 3.

OK, again, nforce3 and nforce4 are BOTH for socket 939. So what does nforce4 buy you personally ?

I agree I don't understand his point. The Sempron and motherboard are cheaper but not by the amount he is sacrificing for an 939 upgrade to a 4200 or higher next year on the same 939 board if he so chooses along with the 939 3000 getting to 2600 with more cache and the 64 free upgrade next year to WinXP64. Pay a little more now but get 64bit/better upgradeability and better overclocking. HMMMM

 

[imported_SLIM]

Originally posted by: charloscarlies
Right on Mark! I'm glad I didn't wait...definitely enjoying the 64-bit goodness right now.

Umm, neither of those systems in your sig is 64bit.

As for what the nforce 4 adds, hopefully they have fixed their ide drivers with this chipset, better firewall that takes load off cpu, better overclocking functionality in windows, all at a good price. But I do agree the SLI stuff is being over-hyped unless you have way too much money to burn.

SLIM

 

[AWhackWhiteBoy]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

2) AGP is the same speed as PCI Express (single slot)

PCI-X is capable of a 2.5Gb/s data stream, in each direction. APG is only good for 2.1ish. Plus its a parallel bus, which is a huge disadvantage right off the bat. furthermore, AGP is dead.

 

[charloscarlies]

Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33

Originally posted by: Markfw900

Originally posted by: Adn4n
But the 939s do not add much performance over a cheaper 754, and VIA is dead to me. Nforce 4 is the only viable option of the 3.

OK, again, nforce3 and nforce4 are BOTH for socket 939. So what does nforce4 buy you personally ?

I agree I don't understand his point. The Sempron and motherboard are cheaper but not by the amount he is sacrificing for an 939 upgrade to a 4200 or higher next year on the same 939 board if he so chooses along with the 939 3000 getting to 2600 with more cache and the 64 free upgrade next year to WinXP64. Pay a little more now but get 64bit/better upgradeability and better overclocking. HMMMM

Personally I've never even upgraded a processor without the motherboard before...but I understand that POV.

Here's my point that I don't think you're understanding. All this new stuff that is coming out (NF4, SLI, etc..) is going to cost an arm and a leg at first. Why wait a couple months and spend twice as much on a motherboard when half of the options most people won't even need.

Also, about the Sempron...the lower cache doesn't seem to matter much especially when overclocked. Now if you want 64-bit go ahead and spring for a $135-150 2800+ or 3000+? Almost all overclock to 2.4+ ghz with relative ease for much much less money.

This is the way I think of it. I spend $200 now and keep the extra couple hundred bucks in my pocket. Prices for nf4 board will most likely be ridiculously expensive at first...so I wait happily with my $200 investment and the extra cash in my pocket. Once prices go down (and quirky motherboard issues are worked out)...I sell my stuff for a small loss and put it towards something else. It's quite simple really.

 

[charloscarlies]

Originally posted by: SLIM

Originally posted by: charloscarlies
Right on Mark! I'm glad I didn't wait...definitely enjoying the 64-bit goodness right now.

Umm, neither of those systems in your sig is 64bit.

As for what the nforce 4 adds, hopefully they have fixed their ide drivers with this chipset, better firewall that takes load off cpu, better overclocking functionality in windows, all at a good price. But I do agree the SLI stuff is being over-hyped unless you have way too much money to burn.

SLIM

Really? No way!

I have an A64 2800 that's sitting here at the moment while testing my newest toy.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: AWhackWhiteBoy

Originally posted by: Markfw900

2) AGP is the same speed as PCI Express (single slot)

PCI-X is capable of a 2.5Gb/s data stream, in each direction. APG is only good for 2.1ish. Plus its a parallel bus, which is a huge disadvantage right off the bat. furthermore, AGP is dead.

PCI-X (which I have) is equivalent to PCI Express x8 (approxamately) in bandwidth (different slots)

And the video card in the new systems gives you ONE x16 PCI Express slot for use with the video card(the rest are x1), and that compares to AGP speed as far as benchmarks on the fastest cards out today.

I don't know where you got your info, but nforce4 and SLI are on PCI Express, NOT PCI-X !

 

[AWhackWhiteBoy]

Originally posted by: Markfw900

PCI-X (which I have) is equivalent to PCI Express x8 (approxamately) in bandwidth (different slots)

And the video card in the new systems gives you ONE x16 PCI Express slot for use with the video card(the rest are x1), and that compares to AGP speed as far as benchmarks on the fastest cards out today.

I don't know where you got your info, but nforce4 and SLI are on PCI Express, NOT PCI-X !

Sorry,i made a typo, it was suppose to be PCI-E. And your correct, it only has a single x16 PCIe or 2 nVidia video cards in two x8 PCIe slots in SLI mode, your pick. Still double the bandwidth.

And of COURSE they compare in benchmarks,its brand new, we haven't even saturated AGP bandwidth yet. thats the whole point. its for the FUTURE cards.

 

[bigal40]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
OK, my list below:
1) most people here don't want to spend $600,$500, and many even $400 on a video card.
2) AGP is the same speed as PCI Express (single slot)
3) nforce3 has all the feature most people want, except a few want SLI
4) 2 SLI cards are only 160-180% of one card in performance.
5) nforce4 is guaranteed to be more than nforce3 in price.

So for the majority of people, what does this buy them ? Like if they don't want to spend $400 in a 6800GT, why buy 2 6600GT (or whatever) for $500-$600 ? Doesn;t make any sense to me. And yes, I read all the nifty features of nforce4 on the review, but what else buys us anything ? 2 channel SATA at 300 ? I can get U320 SCSI in one disk that will probably beat a raid0 300 SATA, and maybe even for the same price ! (just not as much disk space)

So list what everybody but the rich people will get from nforce4 that nforce3 doesn't get them, I want to know, maybe I missed the boat.

You don't need to spend $600 on a video card. Two 6600GT's for $200 each will perform up there with a 6800 ultra. ( If two 6600GT's is 180% better than one 6600GT like you said)

 

[Concillian]

You get an AMD PCIe platform, which has potentially more longevity in it than an AMD AGP platform.

The numbers I've seen don't really look like nForce4 Ultra boards will be significantly more than S939 nForce3 250GB boards.

For someone upgrding their video card AND motherboard, it makes sense to go to PCIe. This is the same kind of person who is likely to hang on to their stuff for a while such that their mobo may outlast the transition from AGP to PCIe.

I think the primary person who is looking forward to nForce4 is someone who has:
an nForce2 board (AthlonXP)
an older video card like a 9500 Pro, 9700, or 9700 Pro

and is looking to upgrade BOTH to something that will last like their AXP/and 2 generation old video card has.

I mean look at the FX53 2.4 vs 3.0 benchmarks from madshrimps. CPU is not a limitation at those speeds with the highest end video cards, video cards are. So it's likely that a CPU upgrade right now to something like a S939 A64300+ or 3200+ overclocked to 2.4-2.6 GHz will last at least one future generation of video card upgrades.

THe CPU is not the primary limitation. Budget consicious people are looking for a CPU platform that may last them two years or so, just as their Socket A platform has. 2 years from now there probably won't be much in terms of AGP cards to choose from. and while the CPU mobo will probably be on the old side, they will probably be adequate enough that a video car dupgrade will still allow them more performance, just as right now someone with an tbred Athlon XP say something like a tbred at 2.0-2.2 GHz range WILL benefit from a 6800 or x800 series card over the previous generation of video cards.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: bigal40

Originally posted by: Markfw900
OK, my list below:
1) most people here don't want to spend $600,$500, and many even $400 on a video card.
2) AGP is the same speed as PCI Express (single slot)
3) nforce3 has all the feature most people want, except a few want SLI
4) 2 SLI cards are only 160-180% of one card in performance.
5) nforce4 is guaranteed to be more than nforce3 in price.

So for the majority of people, what does this buy them ? Like if they don't want to spend $400 in a 6800GT, why buy 2 6600GT (or whatever) for $500-$600 ? Doesn;t make any sense to me. And yes, I read all the nifty features of nforce4 on the review, but what else buys us anything ? 2 channel SATA at 300 ? I can get U320 SCSI in one disk that will probably beat a raid0 300 SATA, and maybe even for the same price ! (just not as much disk space)

So list what everybody but the rich people will get from nforce4 that nforce3 doesn't get them, I want to know, maybe I missed the boat.

You don't need to spend $600 on a video card. Two 6600GT's for $200 each will perform up there with a 6800 ultra. ( If two 6600GT's is 180% better than one 6600GT like you said)

You don't even need 2 6600GTs. Heck, 1 6600GT or 1 X700XT will offer the best best bang for buck and each are only $200.

 

[iwantanewcomputer]

i think the reasons are
1) bragging rights/they think it is better, therefore they are happier
2) future option to upgrade video card
3) wants dual video cards

it will be interesting to see how the priceing will line up to get a sli mobo and 2 low end cards against a single card mobo and an ultra high end card.

lets see, from estimates and newegg:
sli mobo-$150, 2x6600GT-$420 = 570
nf4 single mobo - $130 1x 6800 ultra $600 =730

here i think i would get the sli option. not sure on exact performance numbers, but the 6600gt's would probly give you more of an overclock headroom, and produce a little more power

thoughts?

 

[Mrvile]

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer

lets see, from estimates and newegg:
sli mobo-$150, 2x6600GT-$420 = 570
nf4 single mobo - $130 1x 6800 ultra $600 =730

here i think i would get the sli option. not sure on exact performance numbers, but the 6600gt's would probly give you more of an overclock headroom, and produce a little more power

thoughts?

I second that. Prices are right on too. Another main reason I'm getting SLI is for the future. Since the nf4 supports PCIe, SLI, A64 939 and 940, the upgradeablility is very versatile.

 

[imported_SLIM]

Originally posted by: charloscarlies

Originally posted by: SLIM

Originally posted by: charloscarlies
Right on Mark! I'm glad I didn't wait...definitely enjoying the 64-bit goodness right now.

Umm, neither of those systems in your sig is 64bit.

As for what the nforce 4 adds, hopefully they have fixed their ide drivers with this chipset, better firewall that takes load off cpu, better overclocking functionality in windows, all at a good price. But I do agree the SLI stuff is being over-hyped unless you have way too much money to burn.

SLIM

Really? No way!

I have an A64 2800 that's sitting here at the moment while testing my newest toy.

I see... you were holding back on us Any luck yet overclocking that 2800?

 

[charloscarlies]

I see... you were holding back on us Any luck yet overclocking that 2800?

Yes...yes I was.

So far I've been fairly happy with it. The farthest I've gotten it is 9 x 270 for 2430 just like the Sempron on stock cooling. I'm thinking of selling this for a 3000 just so I can get the 10x multi.

 

[Machine350]

It's just the new thing. Then in the next few months the next big thing will be out and NF4 will be old news. And the cycle continues.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

I'm waiting for NF4 because I will be building a completely new computer and would like to (hopefully) keep my upgrade options open.

I do agree that it is a difficult choice, especially since the 754 chips are still significantly less expensive than their 939 counterparts.

I currently have an AXP 1800+ and 9700pro, and can't really play Halo, FarCry, Doom3, and probably not HL2. The last games I've been able to run well have been CoD and KOTOR.

I think that by going with an NF4 and a low end 90nm 939 (3200+ for example), you can keep the costs down while keeping your options open. I don't really feel the need for SLI, but PCIe is important to me simply because I know it will be the standard going forward. I'm sure the next gen of video cards (after the 6800/X800) will still offer AGP cards, but the gen after that is doubtful. Since I keep computers for several years, having the ability to last through multiple CPU/GPU cycles is useful for me. I'm hoping that by going with NF4 and either 6600GT/X700/6800GT I will have a relatively low cost relatively high performance system that I can upgrade in many ways after a couple years. NF4 should allow dual core CPU's to be used if desired, or maybe 4400+ cpus if they arrive some day, plus I should be able to keep the 6800GT video card for a couple years and then get on a next-next gen one with greatly improved speed.

It does end up being a bit strange, since the Mobo is one of the less expensive parts, and yet I'm planning on spending this extra money so I won't have to upgrade that one part. I know it's weird, but I guess I am able to rationalize that as long as I am not changing the mobo, I'm not really getting a new computer. This makes it easier to justify future upgrades. I guarantee that if I had a good upgrade path on my current mobo, I wouldn't be sitting here with my 1800+ right now (but my KT266A mobo can't handle anything faster than an XP 2000+ Palomino chip, which is a pretty pointless upgrade). However, since I cannot simply drop in a new chip for a significant performance increase, I am waiting as long as possible before I bite the bullet on a new computer. Hopefully with NF4 I'll be better able to upgrade when I want.

-D'oh!

 

[Zebo]

Waiting for... real mobo makers to jump in. ASUS/DFI/ABIT do not make a NF3 939 board. (makes you wonder a bit IMO) These are the top dog makers. All we have in 939 NF3 is crap MSI, and LOL, it's touted as the best. No thanks.


The other 939 alternative is via which has a bad rap (mostly unfounded) so many stay away.