Why does Intel try to deceive people with it's mobile CPU naming schemes?

[Dufus]

the fact that the DC i7 is the exact same chip as the NB and DT i3 that is the issue.

Sometimes similar but with different features. Sometimes different, integrated graphics for example.

Why don't laptop manufacturers use the much cheaper DT dual core i3 instead of the more expensive mobile dual core i7, just because of packaging or something else?

DT and mobile are two different segments. As an example, should traveling on a first class ferry ticket be called economy because it's not the same as traveling first class air?

 

[crashtech]

A brief metacommentary, if I may: I don't see any conflict in not being happy with a manufacturer's naming scheme while still using and recommending their products, as I do, and probably many others who are offering criticism of the naming schemes. I think some participants get this relatively minor nitpick confused with some nefarious attack on their favored brand, when in most cases, it's just expressing an opinion, and nothing more.

I blame the marketing departments. Last I heard, for example, they'll be dealing the final indignity to the Pentium name by allowing its use on Atom-derived products:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1207...on-processor-lists-leaked-coffee-lake-refresh

 

[coercitiv]

Last I heard, for example, they'll be dealing the final indignity to the Pentium name by allowing its use on Atom-derived products:

That blow was given long ago, since Bay Trail. This is truly a marketing failure, since they are using different branding for their low power arch products (Atom and Pentium brands share same arch) and different arches withing the same branding (big cores and small cores share the Pentium brand). Hence Pentium is no longer a consistent performance or a power indicator, only a budget class brand. The oxymoron shines even brighter with the Gold and Silver secondary branding which is meant to settle the confusion between using Atom or Core arches, but only achieves adding complexity and contradiction in their marketing offering (Pentium Gold in consumer speak would translate into "low cost premium product" or "cheap expensive CPU")

It essentially negates any benefit that can be observed from the Core iX branding, where it has successfully offered a performance indicator within a certain power class to the average consumer.

 

[crashtech]

@coercitiv , I didn't realize it had already been done. What a mess.

 

[Topweasel]

Sometimes similar but with different features. Sometimes different, integrated graphics for example.

Why don't laptop manufacturers use the much cheaper DT dual core i3 instead of the more expensive mobile dual core i7, just because of packaging or something else?

DT and mobile are two different segments. As an example, should traveling on a first class ferry ticket be called economy because it's not the same as traveling first class air?

Intel can make a lot of dies. More than AMD, but outside Iris. Even differing GPU's are the same silicon.

But yes packaging and binning.

I get laptops and Desktops are different markets. It's just more to the point that again the same silicon, often with the same capabilities just a lower clockspeed the Difference between these 2 core NB i3's, DT i'3, and the NB 2C i7's is just the clock Intel sets. Otherwise these anywhere from $80-$350 CPU's are exactly the same.

Now I am not trying to rag on Intel. But I do agree that the naming should be better and an i7 should never be that close to an i3. I do expect it will get better as Intel can get 4c CPU's into lower and lower power segments.

 

[Dufus]

Well I often wonder if some of the mobile chips are desktop rejects because they didn't make the thermal spec so lowered clocks and TDP to compensate then not even sold at a lower price but at a premium. I've had a desktop i3 undervolted at the same clock (2.7GHz IIRC) as a "U" (low voltage) mobile dual core of the same generation and the guys using the mobile could not underclock to the same let alone lower voltage than the desktop CPU. Perhaps the Ultra low voltage refers to idle voltage instead idk, I think though that many assume it to mean the operational voltage.

As well as packaging and binning there is also segmentation. I've had an i7 mobile dual core on air beat all desktop i3's on LN2 of the same generation to take global first place on HWBOT simply due to the desktop i3's being locked.

So I can agree with the majority of what your saying but as for the naming scheme I've always checked rather than assumed since buying a laptop with 9200m graphics. IIR the VRAM capacity correctly some manufacturers stated graphics memory as 256MB GDDR3, others just 256MB. Well I bought one that just stated 256MB and turned out it was GDDR2. Clever marketing perhaps to sell inferior VRAM without advertising it that way. I had assumed it would also be GDDR3. So since then I try not to assume too much and why I would hope other people would do the same. The i7 - i3 to me seems more to do with cost and the whole number needs to be taken into consideration for features, not that single digit.

 

[AMDisTheBEST]

Intel wants to one day create an AI that will enslave the humanity. I have nightmares of it every night.

 

[John Carmack]

Gotta love the 45W Coffee Lake H chips. 6C/12T chips under i5, i7, AND i9 with 4C/8T mixed in with the i5's lol

 

[dullard]

Gotta love the 45W Coffee Lake H chips. 6C/12T chips under i5, i7, AND i9 with 4C/8T mixed in with the i5's lol

Am I missing your complaint about Coffee Lake H?

8950HK: i9, 6 cores / 12 threads, 2.9 GHz base, 4.8 GHz turbo
8850H: i7, 6 cores / 12 threads, 2.6 GHz base, 4.3 GHz turbo
8750H: i7, 6 cores / 12 threads, 2.2 GHz base, 4.1 GHz turbo
8400H: i5, 4 cores / 8 threads, 2.5 GHz base, 4.2 GHz turbo
8300H: i5, 4 cores / 8 threads, 2.3 GHz base, 4.0 GHz turbo

https://ark.intel.com/products/codename/97787/Coffee-Lake#@mobile

Maybe your complaint is about the U processors or B processors?

 

[Shivansps]

It is, to a point, the common joe does not know how many cores ANY i3/I5/I7 has, and probably dont even care, they buy the branding. This is marketing at its finest.

Deciving was what AMD did with the old APU naming and BOX information, many people got confused about the naming, some of then belived A4-7300 meant it had 4 cores.

And in others cases, you had the A8-9600 that box said "10 computer cores", A12-9800 "12 computer cores". THAT is deciving people.

To this date you still have people online selling A10-9700 as a 10 cores pc, and what can you say to them? it is what is written in the box.

 

[Bouowmx]

Despite different core configurations, Core i5-8400 3.8 GHz and i7-7700 4.0 GHz are close to each other: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2024?vs=1832

Whether Coffee Lake-H i5 were 4-core & HT, or 6-core & no HT, the comparison suggests the difference is not significant.

 

[krumme]

Despite different core configurations, Core i5-8400 3.8 GHz and i7-7700 4.0 GHz are close to each other: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2024?vs=1832

Whether Coffee Lake-H i5 were 4-core & HT, or 6-core & no HT, the comparison suggests the difference is not significant.

Judged by the 99 percentile that is what matters in games i take the 8400. But yeaa ht is nice.

 

[Topweasel]

It is, to a point, the common joe does not know how many cores ANY i3/I5/I7 has, and probably dont even care, they buy the branding. This is marketing at its finest.

Deciving was what AMD did with the old APU naming and BOX information, many people got confused about the naming, some of then belived A4-7300 meant it had 4 cores.

And in others cases, you had the A8-9600 that box said "10 computer cores", A12-9800 "12 computer cores". THAT is deciving people.

To this date you still have people online selling A10-9700 as a 10 cores pc, and what can you say to them? it is what is written in the box.

The model is the A10 or 12. Some people might interpret that as Cores but it doesn't even say Core anywhere near that so it's a person trying to decifer names based on absolutely no understanding of a CPU. This would apply even more so to Intel. I mean their models don't that high in numbers, but Intel actually names their CPU's Core i5 and i7. Where you could almost understand why someone might be confused that a "Core" i7 doesn't in fact have 7 cores and only has 4 Cores or in most laptops till recently 2 cores.

I guess what I am saying is there is a difference between someone being confused a Pontiac G6 doesn't have a V6 engine in it, just having a number alone shouldn't be enough for people to infer the engine. But if I started a car company and called my car the V12, I would understand if people became confused on why I would name my car the V12 if it only had a 4 banger in it. But that moves away from the original discussion. This isn't about confusing name scheme's it's about confusing the branding. There is an i7 that people are familiar with, there are i7's that are similar to the i7's we are familiar with, and then there are the i7's that would barely stack up again $60-$100 desktop CPU of the same generation. That is poor and can be called deceiving branding.

 

[Bouowmx]

The model is the A10 or 12. Some people might interpret that as Cores but it doesn't even say Core anywhere near that

Kaveri and Bristol Ridge "Compute cores". Example of full processor names: AMD A10-7890K Radeon R7, 12 Compute Cores 4C+8G, and AMD A12-9800 RADEON R7, 12 COMPUTE CORES 4C+8G.

 

[Topweasel]

Kaveri and Bristol Ridge "Compute cores". Example of full processor names: AMD A10-7890K Radeon R7, 12 Compute Cores 4C+8G, and AMD A12-9800 RADEON R7, 12 COMPUTE CORES 4C+8G.

Again that is how AMD named based on computational units and not cores. My point was that this isn't described in the branding of the system. You don't see in the Best Buy tag A12-9800 with 12 computational cores, the retail packaging itself doesn't call the comp units on the iGPU cores. People familiar with AMD can infer core and GPU units based on the naming they chose as much as someone familiar with BMW names can tell you what a BMW 355i has by looking at the name alone. But that is way different from actually including Core in the name followed by a number and then a model number and not having that first number actually be related to how many cores it has. Not taking sides. Branding is a bit of a mess overall but just because the 12 means computational units, it only means that if you know enough about the branding to not be caught out by it. Just looking at retail materials doesn't give any clues proper or improper to it's core count.

 

[NTMBK]

Again that is how AMD named based on computational units and not cores. My point was that this isn't described in the branding of the system. You don't see in the Best Buy tag A12-9800 with 12 computational cores, the retail packaging itself doesn't call the comp units on the iGPU cores. People familiar with AMD can infer core and GPU units based on the naming they chose as much as someone familiar with BMW names can tell you what a BMW 355i has by looking at the name alone. But that is way different from actually including Core in the name followed by a number and then a model number and not having that first number actually be related to how many cores it has. Not taking sides. Branding is a bit of a mess overall but just because the 12 means computational units, it only means that if you know enough about the branding to not be caught out by it. Just looking at retail materials doesn't give any clues proper or improper to it's core count.

This is how a Kaveri APU is branded at a popular retail shop:

"KAVERI A8-7650K 10 COMPUTE CORE APU W/ RADEON R7 GRAPHICS (4 CPU + 6 GPU COMPUTE CORES) - RETAIL"

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/amd-...cpu-6-gpu-compute-cores-retail-cp-391-am.html

It's pretty bad. Yes, it specifies later on that its 6 GPU + 4CPU... but up front it says "10 compute cores".

 

[ElFenix]

oh good now we're arguing about a dead product line.

edit: how the hell do we not have an eyeroll smiley? it's part of unicode!

 

[Topweasel]

This is how a Kaveri APU is branded at a popular retail shop:

"KAVERI A8-7650K 10 COMPUTE CORE APU W/ RADEON R7 GRAPHICS (4 CPU + 6 GPU COMPUTE CORES) - RETAIL"

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/amd-...cpu-6-gpu-compute-cores-retail-cp-391-am.html

It's pretty bad. Yes, it specifies later on that its 6 GPU + 4CPU... but up front it says "10 compute cores".

But that is a retailer and surprising one that would know better and know that their clientele knows that the should know better. But the most generic of purchasing centers.

https://www.amazon.com/AMD-A8-7650K...pID=41HcwuhBK4L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...X67328&cm_re=7650k-_-9SIA25V6X67328-_-Product

So I am glad you found a retailer miss advertising the product. But that wasn't my point. A retailer preying on the uninformed is one thing. Though they probably did it to show how smarter they were as a retailer as they do specifically call it Compute Cores instead of just cores. But AMD doesn't have anything on it's packaging that specifies A12= 12 Compute cores. On top of all that, they are still telling the truth but it's up to interpretation. Just like is a CMT module really 2 cores. I know people tried and failed to sue AMD on that. The A12 in that aspect all things considered even if advertised as "12 Compute cores" is being very forward and truthful even it's easier to get confused by that. Whereas again the i7 isn't just an i7, a 7700k would be titled Core i7 7700k. What one implies just on name alone a core count not matched with it's name a A12-9800 or a Core i7 7770k? The A12 designation doesn't have apparent value if you didn't know better other than A12 is higher than A10. The Intel CPU is named Core with the followup number not actually relating to core count then model number. As an enthusiast you also have to understand where AMD's naming philosophy comes from their idea with APU's was Heterogenous computing and eventually people would go back and forth from running tasks on the GPU and CPU cores indiscriminately based only on which one would do the job better. I mean it was/is probably a decade too early to think that way and they dropped trying establish that mindset (though I believe their APU designs will still have an eye to this possible solution in the future).

 

[John Carmack]

Am I missing your complaint about Coffee Lake H?

8950HK: i9, 6 cores / 12 threads, 2.9 GHz base, 4.8 GHz turbo
8850H: i7, 6 cores / 12 threads, 2.6 GHz base, 4.3 GHz turbo
8750H: i7, 6 cores / 12 threads, 2.2 GHz base, 4.1 GHz turbo
8400H: i5, 4 cores / 8 threads, 2.5 GHz base, 4.2 GHz turbo
8300H: i5, 4 cores / 8 threads, 2.3 GHz base, 4.0 GHz turbo

https://ark.intel.com/products/codename/97787/Coffee-Lake#@mobile

Maybe your complaint is about the U processors or B processors?

Sorry I misparsed that part of the chart initially with the i5 but it does show another absurdity with their marketing where i9 exists in their mobile lineup and their HEDT lineup but absent from their mainstream desktop. Perhaps they're saving that for the 8 core chip?

 

[Shivansps]

Again that is how AMD named based on computational units and not cores. My point was that this isn't described in the branding of the system. You don't see in the Best Buy tag A12-9800 with 12 computational cores, the retail packaging itself doesn't call the comp units on the iGPU cores. People familiar with AMD can infer core and GPU units based on the naming they chose as much as someone familiar with BMW names can tell you what a BMW 355i has by looking at the name alone. But that is way different from actually including Core in the name followed by a number and then a model number and not having that first number actually be related to how many cores it has. Not taking sides. Branding is a bit of a mess overall but just because the 12 means computational units, it only means that if you know enough about the branding to not be caught out by it. Just looking at retail materials doesn't give any clues proper or improper to it's core count.

What? its written on the box, you can read it here.

CPU/GPU is not clear, people know about CORES, "cpu" and specially "gpu" are technical terms, that thing of (cpu+gpu) its there to avoid lawsuits, nothing more.

They also did remove the "quad core" from the sticker as well, only old dual cores, like the A4-7300 still had the "dual core" written on the sticker and not this silly attempt to mislead people.
Look at Richland

There is only one reason of why they started to do that with Kaveri, and its a good thing they stopped doing this with RR.

Intel marketing its different, they make people belive that Celeron->Pentium->I3->I5->I7 and thats petty much it, i do not remember ANYONE, EVER even talking about the number of cores, no one seems to care, its written to a side of the box and they do not even mention the number of threads, so until now, I5/I7 it said "4 Core", Celeron->Pentium->I3 "2 Core".

Even the mobile lineup is in way better shape now, its still misleading sometimes, but remember what happened when we had "35W" "I5 M" and a "15W I7U". So yeah, Intel naming has been very misleading as well.

What it is misleading is Intel not longer using the first number to indicate the correct generation, so we can now have 7th and 8th gen cpus starting with a "8".