Why does nVidia seem to have so many compatibility issues while 3dfx just sails along?

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I mean, nVidia has issue after issue with different boards, yet 3dfx hardly ever has an issue to deal with. Driver release after driver release, with some fixing problems and others causing more problems. My first thought was that 3dfx doesn't support a whole feature set like nVidia (i.e. full AGP, etc.), but there has got to be more to it than that.

What do you all think?
 

Adul

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
32,999
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danny.tangtam.com
Maybe they are trying to push the technology to fast. I think they should slow down to a 9 Month cycle and give us a break on our wallets.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
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Well, this has been true for 3dfx for a long time. They have always managed to perform well on a wide range of systems...why can't nVidia bring that same kind of merit to the table?
 

Warrenton

Banned
Aug 7, 2000
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nvidia has poor engineering. the chips are good, but the design that gets used for the actual board usually sucks. No don't say that nvidia doesn't make the board, they don't, but they do have the reference design that 95% of the manufacturers follow fairly closely.

Look at the 2D video issues. Turns out I was wrong, its not the RAMDAC (after me repeatedly saying it was). But rather it is the stuff going to the video connector, it has resistors and crap that remove much of the high frequency information. This results in a blurred image.
 

Adul

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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danny.tangtam.com
That is another thing, Why does the 2d image quality not tops either? Hell I love my g200 at work on 19" trinitron monitor. Sharp picture and bright colors. Can't say the same for nvidia.
 

Finality

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Main compatablity issues come from AGP problems which really isn't NVidias fault considerings its a problem with signal noise along the AGP bus on Via/AMD chipsets.

And if you look at 3dfx drivers they usually have issues with Glide. ie there needs to be a new Glide patch for every generation of Voodoo. Like Unreal did etc.

I would also agree with Warrentons comment about non reference design. Even if you do get the same board design there is no guarantee that the quality of the components are the same. eg FIC vs Asus. 3dfx also had this problem back in the V1/V2 when they only sold chips.

If you remember the old V1 days the Obsidian was king in terms of image quality speed etc. While other crappy cards had bad image quality/worse speed etc.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
17
81
the nvidia manufacturers pretty much use all the same reference design and it is in that article warranton mentioned about the 2d quality. The drivers have more problems because nvidia keeps adding crap to it for tweaks, that. Like that recent texture compression bug, and the last minute kludge that they call fsaa. Also i recall that some sites posted a press release or article by matrox saying, they put a lot of corner cutting code in their drivers (there was that thing about preloading the framebuffer at the end so that it would finish the benchmark faster , etc) to get faster benchmarks etc. (ok i know i'm gonna get flamed, but people knew about this even back in the riva128 days when zdnet said they had to redo most of their benchmarks to account for all the features that cut corners on some cards for faster speeds).
 

vulejo

Member
Aug 10, 2000
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because nvidia constantly writes new drivers while 3dfx just sticks with whatever works. however i do think nvidia shouldnt have released any new drivers that havent been fully tested. 3dfx used to be a great company, until nvidia suddenly droped out of the sky and knocked out 3dfx. now 3dfx's stock is at 5 buck per share, and they have to resort to supporting voodo5's on mac to help save themselves from total disaster.

perhaps to help minimize costs, they decided the perfectly healthy banshee is now obsolete and therefore stop writing any new drivers for it. as a result i couldnt find any win2k drivers. the driver came with win2k had MAJOR bugs in it and took me many hours to find the workaround of the bug.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Well Glide isn't that much of a factor these days (basically just UT & Deus Ex)....
 

Finality

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I'm not saying it is. All I am saying is its not limited to any one company.

Even ATI has had the problem with Signal noise in the AGP bus.
 

Finality

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,665
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I wouldn't count out ATI just yet. They execute as good as Nvidia and there next generation product should really kick some butt.

BTW NFS the info about the NV20/25 is a bit old.

Back when MS announced X-box they stated the fill rate would be 300Mhz 4.8GP/sec renderer so that would be the NV25 spec. With a 300 Million burst poly count and a 100 Million sustained count.

So the NV20 should be 60% slower. The fill rate is overstated. BTW if you do the math it comes out to 16 pipelines 4X current generation stuff. I'm guessing at least 4 textures per clock probably 8. So thats what 20GT/sec?

Anyone else feel like there video card is inadequate right about now?
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
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The AGP issue is almost entirely the fault of manufacturers who don't adhere to Intel's AGP standards.

As for the 2D issue, there is a thread about it here. It seems that nVidia's boards have RFI reducing circuitry and if it is made from poor components the 2D image quality suffers. Also it seems that Hercules based cards don't suffer from this problem as much.
 

dawks

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,071
2
81
Look at the 2D video issues. Turns out I was wrong, its not the RAMDAC (after me repeatedly saying it was). But rather it is the stuff going to the video connector, it has resistors and crap that remove much of the high frequency information. This results in a blurred image.
Thats the card manufaturers choice. Not nVidia. The less filter they put on the board, the cheap it is.

A big problem is crappy AGP implementation by mobo/chipset makers. nVidia AGP cards are very close to spec, where as Voodoo cards are basically PCI cards trying to look tough by 'putting an AGP cape' on. Case and point, Anands Athlon DDR mobo review. Because of the crappy AGP support on the mobo the Geforce wouldnt run. Where as the Voodoo had no problems.

At least they have a good (not great) opengl driver now.
Its equal to, or better then ATI's. nVidias OpenGL support is pretty well the best you can get on a standard consumer chip. nVidias drivers have been tested, and confirmed to work with Softimage and 3D Studio Max. Voodoo boards havent even been considered for testing. Are their drivers even capible of running these programs yet?

I have a feeling im going to be flamed. Well, flame on.
 

Zucchini

Banned
Dec 10, 1999
4,601
0
0
Hmm 2d quality for my hurcules prophet ddr is excellent, better then my old g200. The g200 was better then my tnt2 though.
 

Zucchini

Banned
Dec 10, 1999
4,601
0
0
Truthfully i have no idea. I run 1600x1200@85hz on my sony g400.. very clear. I don't have a g400 for the simple reason that its too slow for games Have you seen a hercules 3d prophet ddr's 2d output?
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
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ok, we're not talking about compatability with API's really.. it's mostly compatability with hardware that nVidia's drivers seem to have the most problems (ok, DX compatability isn't as good as 3dfx's AFAIK though).

now, when you push technology so hard, you have to cut something here and there. when you are low on time, you might not have time to test everything. so, you'll find problems in certain games that wouldn't normally occur, or you'll have problems getting your AGP card to run with all the bells and whistles.

I'm guessing this was part of the reason why 3dfx stuck with the Voodoo architecture. They somehow knew that AGP really wasn't needed much, and though it DOES help performance in games now a days, much of the performance comes from the increased throughput, and fast writes (which bypasses the RAM when sending data from the CPU to the video card).

the Main reason AGP came about (besides intel wanting to enter the video card market, but that's a totally different story) was becuase they thought that video cards would not be able to have enough RAM for textures.

Time has passed, and we now see video cards, with 64 megs SDRAM. as you can see, the main use of AGP has not been used at all. only the two things I mentioned above are what really gives AGP a performance increase, and even then, when T&L becomes popular, AGP will no longer matter much at all (perhaps why AMD has made some rumblings about a totally new architecture?).

T&L, offloads the CPU as you know, and so the CPU therefor doesn't have to send that massive amount of geometry data to the CPU.

Intel hasn't actually given other chipset manufacturers the ability to have normal AGP support. it's like when AMD was trying to build CPU's that ran on intel compatable motheboards (talking Socket 7 here). these ones worked FINE, becuase AMD already had good compatability with these chipsets, HOWEVER intel didn't like that, and quickly abandoned the Socket format, which forced AMD to keep the Socket 7 platform alive by itself.

Intel has made sure that AGP will not come easily for Via, ALi, or AMD chipsets. what AMD and the rest would need to do to get rid of these compatability problems, is bypass the AGP. get rid of it, and replace it with their own graphics card port. it's going to happen sooner then you think, because as T&L becomes more and more useful, the less an advantage (what little it had) the AGP port will have over the much slower PCI bus will have.

so, in order to really guage whether it is nVidia's fault, or Via's (or AMD, or ALi's) fault for compatability problems, why not actually try running AGP 4X (with Fastwrites etc) on an Intel board? can you run AGP 2X with Fast writes and sidebanding etc on the BX board? (I don't think so, but I don't know).

ok, so the AGP problems have been partly explained. what other compatability problems are there? well there is that whole issue of power, but that can be blaimed on mobo manufacturers too.

then come the drivers. Drivers incompatabilities? really? I didn't think they were that bad? what kinds of problems do you mean?
 
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