Why does stuff exist? Where did we come from?

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Ariste

Member
Jul 5, 2004
173
0
71
Originally posted by: hellokeith
Origin and Conclusion are purely human constructs. They really have no basis in either nature or religion.

The atheist asks "What is the origin of the universe, if energy can neither be created nor destroyed?"

The deist asks "God created the universe.. who/what created God?"

Another way to frame it is to take a deeper look at randomness/chance. When you flip a coin, the outcome may appear random, and even may be practically random, but do you have all the information needed to determine the outcome? Do you know all the gravity interactions and electron clouds and ZPE (for example) for all the molecules and atoms and other particles involved in that coin spinning and flipping through the air? No, but perhaps a computer 1000 years from now will be powerful and accurate enough to properly analyze that, and then you wouldn't say it is random any more. And then with that computer you discover nothing is random, and so infinity (for the scientist) and eternity (for the theist) become much easier to accept as the answer to the questions of origin and conclusion.

Interesting.

How does the fact that nothing is random make infinity or eternity easier to accept, though? Even if the universe as it is now is completely predictable (although I believe this contradicts the Heisenberg principle), how does this predictability explain the origin of everything? Even if we could calculate where every atom in the universe will be and has been at every point in time, how do we explain where they came from in the first place? How they were spontaneously created? Or, if they have always been there, how they exist at all?

When I really think about these questions, answers seem impossible. What is existence? It seems impossible to know how everything exists. The alternative is nothingness, which is a completely separate and equally confounding concept.

I hope that one day some of these questions will be answered, but it really does seem impossible. Mathematic principles aside, it just seems conceptually to defy reason and logic. There's no logical way of accounting for spontaneous creation of energy or matter, or for eternal existence of energy and matter.

I guess all this musing is pretty fruitless and pointless, but these things are really interesting to think about
 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
Originally posted by: hellokeith
Origin and Conclusion are purely human constructs. They really have no basis in either nature or religion.

The atheist asks "What is the origin of the universe, if energy can neither be created nor destroyed?"

The deist asks "God created the universe.. who/what created God?"

Another way to frame it is to take a deeper look at randomness/chance. When you flip a coin, the outcome may appear random, and even may be practically random, but do you have all the information needed to determine the outcome? Do you know all the gravity interactions and electron clouds and ZPE (for example) for all the molecules and atoms and other particles involved in that coin spinning and flipping through the air? No, but perhaps a computer 1000 years from now will be powerful and accurate enough to properly analyze that, and then you wouldn't say it is random any more. And then with that computer you discover nothing is random, and so infinity (for the scientist) and eternity (for the theist) become much easier to accept as the answer to the questions of origin and conclusion.

Actually, quantum theory says that most of reality is random. Cosmologists have been bickering about quantum vs. non-quantum physics for almost 100 years. Yet with all its randomness and wierdness, quantum physics has NEVER been shown to be in error. Not one experiment has ever disproved a quantum mechanics prediction. Therefore, with that in mind, no computer could ever predict the outcome of such things purely because of the strangeness at the atomic level.


 

josh609

Member
Aug 8, 2005
194
0
0
I believe we can simply find that answer in Gods word, the Bible. It was stated above that our whole universe is under a rule of physics/laws. One thing can only act or react according to its prerequisites set forth in a beginning. I believe everything happens for a reason, and nothing happens without reason. As you look around at nature and upon looking at the universe you can see that only a GREAT mathematician could set forth laws that govern our terrestrial bodies in space to even as small as a atom; the smallest component of an element. You can claim there is no God, but without 100% proof it?s an unsafe speculation. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20 NASB.
You won?t find God in the physical realm for it?s not possible. God is a spiritual being. You can only find him in His Word and if only you would take time to look. The Bible has been around for thousands of years for it has stood the test of time. If it was all fallacy in the first place how could it have then taken off to become the world?s most popular book? Kings tried to destroy it, leaders tried to stop it, people tried to kill it (the messengers at least) and it has yet gone forth just has God said His word will.
 

josh609

Member
Aug 8, 2005
194
0
0
It was asked above when was God created?

Good question. God has forever been. There are no time restraints on God. Time is only attached to this earth. There is no time in space. You can claim distance is time, but then what governs time in space? In space there is no governing law over time of when things begin and end. It's hard to comprehend, but God is the beginning and the end. He has always been.
 

tank171

Member
May 27, 2007
93
0
0
This can be debated forever, and there will never be a shortage of answers and theorys. Ask yourself. Does it really matter?

The point is that the universe does infact exist, and there is no point in looking for the answer to how the universe exists. It is basicly a waste of time, as none of these theorys can be proven.

You will find the answer:
a) When you die, and if you do go to the afterlife, you will know that God made it.
or
b) You will never find an answer.


(But I personally like the theory that God farted and the gas blew up into what is now our universe.)
 

Nathelion

Senior member
Jan 30, 2006
697
1
0
All this god stuff is nonsense. It's the Flying Spaghetti Monster that created the universe! How more obvious could it be?

Originally posted by: Sahakiel
The best answer may be found while studying General Relativity and applying some philosophical thinking.
With General Relativity, you learn the great importance of the observer. You learn that depending on which observer you choose, the outcome of a single scenario seems to change. In reality, the outcome doesn't change. All that changes is what you see.
So, how does this apply to the laws of physics? Well, if I remember correctly, someone once said something along these lines: Every time man makes a revolutionary discovery, the universe changes. What he meant wasn't that the formalization of the Bohr model suddenly created an immeasurable number of tiny little balls with positive, negative, and neutral charges. He meant that as we create more accurate models of the universe, we begin to see more of it.
The significance of the statement permeates every aspect of science. No matter what area of science you study, you use tools to observe, be they rulers, telescopes, or that thermometer you shoved up where the sun don't shine. However, no matter what tool you use, you always end up using one of your five senses to observe the results. That's the most important point.
If you are blind, you cannot see whether the sky is blue. Yes, you can have someone who can see tell you, but how do you know he's telling the truth? How do you know he's not just saying it's blue so you'll shut up and go away so he can continue messing around with your sister? In fact, how do you know he's there in the first place? You reach out a hand and feel a body, but how do you know it's a body you feel and not a complex doll? If you were blind from birth, imagine if every time you reached out for your mother, you felt a balloon. Uh, oh, I just felt something rubbery, cold, and full of air. Must be a woman.
So, what's my point, other than be careful of blind men with blow-up dolls? The point is the observer always sets the rules. The observer chooses the tools used to observe and chooses the interpretation of what the tools tell him. Slap a magnet next to a compass, and all of a sudden, the sun rises in the South.
The laws of physics were created by men to explain the world as seen by men. You could come up with your own set of rules, but good luck creating a set as accurate that encompasses so many situations.
So, in conclusion, the laws of physics don't govern the universe. The way we observe the universe governs the laws of physics. Everything is a black box with which we can only observe inputs and outputs. We don't care if inside it is a strange wooden contraption, a mouse on a wheel, or the remnants of alien civilization, as long as something takes numbers and operators and inputs and outputs the right numbers, we call it a calculator.

As a side note, how do you know the laws of physics are true? Have you ever seen an atom split? How do you know they weren't created years ago as a way of governing the behavior of the general populace? How do you know your memories are real? How do you know you're not stuck in some virtual reality game where you live as a strange creature in a strange world with random laws of physics? Are you actually reading this text or is it input straight into your brain? Do you even have a brain?

There is obviously no answer to the OPs question, since any answer just be questioned with yet another "Why". Science, btw, is not even about finding out why. It's about finding out "how" through building mathematical models that are provable, as simple as possible, without contradiction, can account for all known facts, etc... So science doesn't even belong in this thread.

The quoted post is the closest thing to an answer that I think you'll ever get. If you decide that god made the universe, then maybe he did. That being said, there's obviously still not an absolute answer to the question.

I'd like to contribute some relevant quotes from Alpha Centauri, which by the way is my favorite ever videogame, largely because it does incorporate quotes like this.

Bioenhancement Center
FAC30
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled.
But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any
particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in
a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events
of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose
meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

-- Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

Unified Field Theory
TECH20
Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are
trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just
beyond the last theorem.

-- Sister Miriam Godwinson,
"But for the Grace of God"

Controlled Singularity
TECH27
Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled
with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum:
why would a perfect God create a universe at all?

-- Sister Miriam Godwinson,
"But for the Grace of God"

Planetary Networks
TECH32
If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps
this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our
collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are
at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only
purpose is life itself.

-- Chairman Sheng-ji Yang,
"Looking God in the Eye"

Self-Aware Machines
TECH34
Without sensibility no object would be given to us, without
understanding no object would be thought. Thoughts without content
are empty, intuitions without concepts are blind.

-- Immanuel Kant,
"Critique of Pure Reason", Datalinks


I swear sometimes they're watching me.

-- Bozon Pete, Shift Foreman,
Metagenics Biomachinery Division

Intellectual Integrity
TECH37
Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true
rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has
always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save
us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of
evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest
of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore
he must exist.

-- Academician Prokhor Zakharov,
"For I Have Tasted The Fruit"


Secrets of the Human Brain
TECH48
There are only two ways in which we can account for a necessary
agreement of experience with the concepts of its objects: either
experience makes these concepts possible or these concepts make
experience possible.

-- Immanuel Kant,
"Critique of Pure Reason", Datalinks


Matter Transmission
TECH57
The first living thing to go through the device was a small white
rat. I still have him, in fact. As you can see, the damage was
not so great as they say.

-- Academician Prokhor Zakharov,
"See How They Run"

Secrets of Creation
TECH65
And when the hourglass has run out, the hourglass of temporality,
when the noise of secular life has grown silent and its restless or
ineffectual activism has come to an end, when everything around you
is still, as it is in eternity, then eternity asks you and every
individual in these millions and millions about only one thing:
whether you have lived in despair or not.

-- Soren Kierkegaard,
"The Sickness Unto Death", Datalinks

Homo Superior
TECH67
Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and
believers. Fellow creators the creator seeks--those who write
new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and
fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the
harvest.

-- Friedrich Nietzsche,
"Thus Spoke Zarathustra", Datalinks

Quantum Machinery
TECH69
Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation,
and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always
they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than
they thought.

-- Sister Miriam Godwinson,
"We Must Dissent"

String Resonance
TECH86
To understand a thing is to know the manner by which it might be destroyed. A fundamental
understanding of the basic building-blocks of the Universe is essential, then, to the total
destruction of everything.

-- Foreman Domai
"One Tool, One Thought"


Transcendent Thought
TECH88
Eternity lies ahead of us, and behind.
Have you drunk your fill?

-- Lady Deirdre Skye,
"Conversations with Planet", Epilogue

The Planetary Datalinks
PROJECT11
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century,
free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny.
The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on
information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but
the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse
has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would
deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself
your master.

-- Commissioner Pravin Lal,
"U.N. Declaration of Rights"

The Cyborg Factory
PROJECT17
A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace.

-- Barracks Graffiti,
Sparta Command
 

bobdole369

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2004
4,504
2
0
I always thought because -1 and +1 = 0

Don't know which side I am, + or -, but whichever one, I don't know where the other polarity is either.
 

Hlafordlaes

Senior member
May 21, 2006
271
2
81
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
If you keep going back, there had to be someone or something that has existed for all eternity.

Given that time is the fourth dimension of spacetime, there is no time line prior to the Big Bang. Eternity is a mental construct, and so are any beings that are purported to exist eternally, or timelessly.

If an eternal creature were to have a thought, create a universe, or wave a hand, there would then be a "before" and an "after," and timeless eternity would collapse. Perhaps this is how the angels fell into cohabitation with mortals?

Sarcasm aside, I gather you refer to First Cause, which, as others have posted, is scientifically inscrutable prior to the BB. Black holes have been posited to be possible precursors of baby universes, which would make the BB a white hole, but even then we have a recursive process and are no closer to the answer "why."
 

Blefuscu

Junior Member
Jul 4, 2007
23
0
0
The fact that you do not understand something is no reason to go bandying about the word "God". It just means that you are too dumb to understand that thing. Please, grow up people. There is no tooth fairy. There is no afterlife. There is no vacation land in the clouds.
 

Game Boy

Member
Jul 18, 2007
32
0
0
I believe that physics (rules of interactions) was very slightly different in each of the uncountable multitudes of universes that exist in space (e.g. through many-worlds interpretation).

Some of these physics-sets were more stable than others: very unstable ones were destroyed on creation, others could not support life.

Therefore, we live in a universe with stable and accommodating physics, which is only a tiny subset of all possibilities.

So the "rules" are due to chance (we could have lived in any of the available universes) and the anthropic principle.
 

Biftheunderstudy

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
375
1
81
I hate to burst your bubble about the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, but thats not exactly how it works. The physics in all the different universes is the same, by definition. Many worlds does not change any physical laws, its only a different way of interpreting what is happening on the quantum level. All of classical physics remains unchanged, and most of quantum mechanics too--only the collapse of the wavefunction is different.

Cosmology is the one area of physics which gets close to philosophy for obvious reasons. Currently the question of what came before the big bang is not a valid question since time began with the big bang in our present understanding.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
My dad was an Episcopal priest. He was agnostic before he started working as a Biochemist at Princeton with Einstein's crew. Somewhere in there a hypothesis emerged. If God created a washtub of neutrons with no space between the particles, there would be light... in a big way. Just one washtub of neutrons and thus a Big Bang.

I have not ever seen anything that could disprove that, so I am sticking with that one. The Big Bang part fits what we know to date.
 

L00PY

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2001
1,101
0
0
Well, there's the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God idea that many are familiar with.

And then there's the much more likely (taken from the Good Books, 5 of 6):
At first there was nothing. Nada. Zip. Big Empty void.

Then behold! The Great Chaos Monkey shat into His hand and flung His feces out into the universe, thus creating the Earth and the planets and the stars and everything else.

And then did the Great Chaos Monkey pick His nose, and instead of eating it as usual, He formed the Holy Booger into Joey Martin. And He said, "You're in charge now, buster brown," and He scampered off into the cosmos.

So you just need to find Joey and ask him.
 

noobish

Member
Jul 14, 2007
65
0
0
(stuff exist) The way they are because a rock fell down on a man head when he's walking on the road that knock him out then he started to dream... A dream that start EVOLUTION (where stuff comes from) which created everything up untill now (long @ss dream), whos know... we all probably just sitting around in his dream still (that basterd).

THE END

 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
Originally posted by: josh609
It was asked above when was God created?

Good question. God has forever been. There are no time restraints on God. Time is only attached to this earth. There is no time in space. You can claim distance is time, but then what governs time in space? In space there is no governing law over time of when things begin and end. It's hard to comprehend, but God is the beginning and the end. He has always been.

If you can define God into existence by simply stating his qualities, then I can define him out of existence in the same manner: God is impossible.

There, that wasn't so hard.
 

Engraver

Senior member
Jun 5, 2007
812
0
0
God is a dream of an ideal government.

If something like God does actually exist, it would be more feasible to think of it as a collective consciousness from the gathering of coalescent mental energies (i.e. noosphere).

It seems more people would rather believe God controls everything they do, because that way they always have someone to blame their problems on.
 

BadRobot

Senior member
May 25, 2007
547
0
0
I believe in a god.

But I hardly fall into this category, and unfortunately its true that a lot of people use this as an excuse for their actions.

Originally posted by: Engraver
God is a dream of an ideal government.

If something like God does actually exist, it would be more feasible to think of it as a collective consciousness from the gathering of coalescent mental energies (i.e. noosphere).

It seems more people would rather believe God controls everything they do, because that way they always have someone to blame their problems on.

Also I am curius about people's view on time but I won't hijack this thread and I will make my own to discuss the subject.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: gsellis
My dad was an Episcopal priest. He was agnostic before he started working as a Biochemist at Princeton with Einstein's crew. Somewhere in there a hypothesis emerged. If God created a washtub of neutrons with no space between the particles, there would be light... in a big way. Just one washtub of neutrons and thus a Big Bang.

I could be wrong since I am certainly no expert in this subject area, but I thought that it was impossible for particles such as neutrons to be closer to each other than the planck length. Can someone more knowledgeable in this area clarify this?
 

Biftheunderstudy

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
375
1
81
Its called neutron degeneracy pressure, where the strong force becomes repulsive at close range(~10^-15 meters I think). Incidentally this is the force that holds up a neutron star against the force of gravity.
There was a comment on one of these topics that if you take out all of the spaces between neutrons they would only fill a bathtup. That being said, I don't know how true the bathtub statement is since neutron stars are extremely dense ~10^15 which is right around the density of a neutron. For reference a typical neutron star is on the order of kilometers in diameter and has a mass of a few solar masses.

As for the original question, Quantum Mechanics tells us that it is perfectly ok to get something out of nothing, as long as you pay it back. Then with the non zero baryonic number we're left with residual matter in the universe et voila the universe is the ultimate free lunch. It came out of nothing, nothing existed before since there was no before as time began with the big bang. There was nothing there before either since besides being no before, there was no 'there'.

As a scientist it is very hard to bring religion into the picture, a few have tried and I don't know of any who have succeeded. With that in mind I know many brilliant physicists who are deeply religious but in certain areas they have to cede their beliefs to a scientific view. One guy I know is a straight A student, his transcript is unblemished and he does not believe in evolution, or the big bang....point is you don't have to divorce yourself from religion to be a good scientist.
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
0
0
Originally posted by: trOver
Even once you get outside of the religious aspect of things, where did your religions "creator" come from? You can just keep going farther and farther back, where there are no answers

Yep, and even the atheist scientists can't answer "what was there before the big bang?" or "what caused the big bang?"

 
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