Question Why does the overall gaming GPU market treat AMD like they have AIDS?

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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
I guess I get the (sub-liminal) "The way it's meant to be played" ads from NVidia, along with the recurring FUD tropes about "AMD drivers", but I honestly don't get the sales disparity, especially for the price.

I've owned both NVidia-powered as well as AMD powered GPUs, and IMHO, AMD is (generally) just as good. Maybe 99% as good.

Edit: And I think that there's something to be said about the viability of AMD technologies, when they're in both major console brands.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,534
1,284
146
After reading your answers, I still have no idea how this is possible:

View attachment 69237

It makes no sense. But that explains why prices are going up, and why Nvidia is always the one raising prices first.

This post proves my point about the market being sheep. It's the halo effect that causes this situation and not price to performance ecomonics.
 

kondziowy

Senior member
Feb 19, 2016
212
188
116
And people say there are still problems with AMD drivers, while I went through R9 280x->R9 Fury->Vega64->6700XT and have literally zero problems (ok well overclocking on Vega was not 100% working but Nvidia has no overclocking at all in drivers so...). But before 280x I have never considered AMD card, I just didn't think about it and the halo effect was pushing me always to default to Nvidia. So I was the sheep
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,398
4,963
136
Since nvidia has the leadership in raytracing, then for me the regular price/performance ratio has to be at least 10% in favor of AMD, before I would choose AMD. Or they would have to significantly improve raytracing performance.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,051
4,273
136
Because Nvidia offers "incentives" to keep the media in line and they all stay in line like good little minions.

Even outlets like gamersnexus, which has a reputation of not holding back and tell it how it is will hardly ever blame nvidia for anything and instead pick fights with board partners instead.

You can easily tell how much reviewers are just regurgitating Nvidia marketing in their reviews.

Things like the Geforce Partner Program should be a talking points on every video about Nvidia but is never mentioned again.

You are very wrong about this, Gamers Nexus in particular. Steve has no issues calling NVIDIA out, nor does he have any issues praising them. He receives no kickbacks. The 4090 received glowing reviews because *shocker* it is a good card. He also has many videos where he criticizes NVIDIA. It is not a reviewers job to be perpetually negative. It is a reviewer’s job to provide honest feedback.

Regarding the subject matter, I haven’t bought an AMD card in recent years because AMD has nothing to offer over NVIDIA. Outside of a few single digit benchmark wins at resolutions I play at, what advantage do they give? The 3090 is a better workstation and gaming card. It wins at 4K resolutions, has DLSS support AND FSR support, much faster RT, more VRAM, and better developer support. I constantly wait until AMD cards drop, year after year, but AMD, can’t seem to provide the goods.

Hopefully November will change that.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,534
1,284
146
You are very wrong about this, Gamers Nexus in particular. Steve has no issues calling NVIDIA out, nor does he have any issues praising them. He receives no kickbacks. The 4090 received glowing reviews because *shocker* it is a good card. He also has many videos where he criticizes NVIDIA. It is not a reviewers job to be perpetually negative. It is a reviewer’s job to provide honest feedback.

Regarding the subject matter, I haven’t bought an AMD card in recent years because AMD has nothing to offer over NVIDIA. Outside of a few single digit benchmark wins at resolutions I play at, what advantage do they give? The 3090 is a better workstation and gaming card. It wins at 4K resolutions, has DLSS support AND FSR support, much faster RT, more VRAM, and better developer support. I constantly wait until AMD cards drop, year after year, but AMD, can’t seem to provide the goods.

Hopefully November will change that.

People like yourself that actually purchase the halo products from nVidia are different from the rest of the market that purchases the lower tier cards based on the reputation that the halo product has for being the top performing card so I can't fault you for wanting that top tier performance. I think AMD is still a couple of years away from releasing another halo-tier product.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
You are very wrong about this, Gamers Nexus in particular. Steve has no issues calling NVIDIA out, nor does he have any issues praising them. He receives no kickbacks. The 4090 received glowing reviews because *shocker* it is a good card. He also has many videos where he criticizes NVIDIA. It is not a reviewers job to be perpetually negative. It is a reviewer’s job to provide honest feedback.

Regarding the subject matter, I haven’t bought an AMD card in recent years because AMD has nothing to offer over NVIDIA. Outside of a few single digit benchmark wins at resolutions I play at, what advantage do they give? The 3090 is a better workstation and gaming card. It wins at 4K resolutions, has DLSS support AND FSR support, much faster RT, more VRAM, and better developer support. I constantly wait until AMD cards drop, year after year, but AMD, can’t seem to provide the goods.

Hopefully November will change that.
Well said and EXACTLY why we need intel to be a 3rd player in the market. The Duopoly has done what duopolies do. Given us one high end player that is very expensive and another low end/midrange player that is “good enough”. Being “Good Enough” is simply not that exciting.
 
Reactions: Leeea

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,398
4,963
136
People like yourself that actually purchase the halo products from nVidia are different from the rest of the market that purchases the lower tier cards based on the reputation that the halo product has for being the top performing card so I can't fault you for wanting that top tier performance. I think AMD is still a couple of years away from releasing another halo-tier product.
Unless the rumors of a double GCD Navi come true in 2023.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,818
21,573
146
Why did GN spend the entirety of last year pretending MSRP is what the cards could be bought at to calculate their value when recommending the cards with little to no mention of the market prices?
Be aware, there is a weird cult now around tech Jesus. You will go straight to reddit downvote hell if you dare speak ill against the savior there.

As I have written. He deserves great respect for his charitable work, consumer advocacy, and impressive investment in training and equipment, for technical testing. What I don't like. I have him as lowest tier for anything to do with testing hardware for gaming. They rarely play a game, they test it. Very limited utility. What they did with ARC was what has to be done to get it right. It has to be your daily driver. Since they can rarely do that and make money doing so, they can't be a resource I use for gaming stuff.

And all big channels were guilty of using fantasy land MSRP/RRP during the madness. No one was interested in reviews of stuff they couldn't buy. But all the negative train wreck click bait they could generate by using fake MSRP. Along with comparing to the historical frame of reference, despite having zero applicability to the situation at hand, picked traffic up. I understand, but I don't condone. In fact, I am a bit spicy about it, and how readily so many of our group fall in lock step.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,697
5,431
136
And all big channels were guilty of using fantasy land MSRP/RRP during the madness.
Hardware Unboxed quite frequently were doing spot prices for the entire time, and still do.

These days I would consider Hardware Unboxed to be a big channel.


What I don't like. I have him as lowest tier for anything to do with testing hardware for gaming.
Rating him as lowest tier in a world where digital foundry exists is deeply unfair.


His reviews are different, in they tend to be focused on build quality and the like. The benchmarks are canned, but they have to be for repeatability. His gaming tests might be average, but his hardware takes with power, heat, transients, build quality, etc are excellent. More importantly, he tries to do the right thing fairly.
 
Last edited:

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,005
6,451
136
This post proves my point about the market being sheep. It's the halo effect that causes this situation and not price to performance ecomonics.

I don't think it's quite that simple. AMD gained a lot of market share with Zen and subsequent generations of Zen products. Even with Zen 2 where they weren't quite as good as Intel, especially in gaming, they still saw massive sales growth.

You have to explain why the market are sheep in this regard, but we're happy to abandon Intel.
 
Reactions: Tlh97 and Leeea

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,697
5,431
136
You have to explain why the market are sheep in this regard, but we're happy to abandon Intel.
That is simple.

Intel is anti-fun.

Remember the days of wild celeron over-clocks? Yea, Intel murdered that.

It used to be a person could over clock every CPU, and Intel took that away. Segmented chip sets, confusing model names, and active price gouging. Removing features after the fact from the H series. Actively removing ECC from consumer lines.

You want to overclock on Intel these days? You buy the most premium part in the stack. With a premium main board to go with that thank you very much.


AMD on the other hand, the cheapest Ryzen cpu in the stack could be overclocked on day 1. Complete opposite from Intel.

The mid-range boards, the B series, are also over clock able. That is just not allowed over in Intel land.



Intel confiscated everyone's toys, and people were unhappy. That is all there was to it.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,818
21,573
146
Hardware Unboxed quite frequently were doing spot prices for the entire time, and still do.

These days I would consider Hardware Unboxed to be a big channel.



Rating him as lowest tier in a world where digital foundry exists is deeply unfair.


His reviews are different, in they tend to be focused on build quality and the like. The benchmarks are canned, but they have to be for repeatability. His gaming tests might be average, but his hardware takes with power, heat, transients, build quality, etc are excellent. More importantly, he tries to do the right thing fairly.
Sure Steve did spot pricing. Show me where it was the basis of his conclusions. He plays both sides, like usual. Acknowledging all the realities then somehow not basing his conclusions on them. And he doesn't play the games either. My perspective is that the old way of doing things, which is their testing methodology, needs to die. I don't care about their making money. I care about how hardware does in the games I play or intend to in the near future. Canned benchmarks and 60 second walking simulators don't cut it for me. I have tested too much hardware myself to accept that. What seems fine, can tank hard ruining the game experience by 20-30hrs in in some titles.

And I rank DF higher than GN for gaming tests. Despite all the Nvidia marketing dept. stuff they do. And Alex being part of their PR human caterpillar. Why? They test where they actually play games. Richard earned street cred with me for the first time BITD, when he showed how once you hit Novigrad in Witcher 3 the i3 crapped the bed, and the i5 had some frame pacing issues. None of the others were playing the game to find that out and report it. His Spiderman CPU testing is excellent too. Who else told you a i5 12400 could dip below 60fps before that? If someone did, it wasn't HUB, GN, LTT, or any of the other automated script runners. HUB walks down the street, swings for a 30 seconds in that same area and calls it a run. Never going to hit those areas where the hardware starts to chug testing that way.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But GN sucks for gaming content, no matter how badly anyone tries to defend them. ARC was an outlier because it wouldn't kill revenue. All you have to do is watch Linus' vid from the other day where he talks about automating all their testing. He explains how being hot off the press is intrinsic to making money. Then gaslights about why its better for you, the viewer. It isn't and will never be in the present incarnation.

Again, not saying anyone has to agree with me. These are my views. I do think it is a bad thing, the cult of personality gamers get about reviewers. They don't need defending, they need their feet constantly held to the fire to keep them on task and constantly improving.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,534
1,284
146
I don't think it's quite that simple. AMD gained a lot of market share with Zen and subsequent generations of Zen products. Even with Zen 2 where they weren't quite as good as Intel, especially in gaming, they still saw massive sales growth.

You have to explain why the market are sheep in this regard, but we're happy to abandon Intel.

Intel owns its Fabs and has more capacity available to it than AMD does thus able to provide volume to the OEMs. The DIY market is a small percentage of the overall CPU market..
 
Reactions: Leeea

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
7,120
5,998
136
That is simple.

Intel is anti-fun.

Remember the days of wild celeron over-clocks? Yea, Intel murdered that.

It used to be a person could over clock every CPU, and Intel took that away.

AMD did it too. I remember having to use silver paint to connect traces to unlock my Athlon XP's multiplier back in 01 or 02. Of course that was when Athlon XP was curbstomping the trash Pentium 4.
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,219
1,153
136
AMD did it too. I remember having to use silver paint to connect traces to unlock my Athlon XP's multiplier back in 01 or 02. Of course that was when Athlon XP was curbstomping the trash Pentium 4.
I remember those days. Intel fans started using Pentium M chips for laptops for desktops. Even then they could not match AMD. The Barton 2500+ was a slayer chip that could OC really well. That was back in the days when Nvidia made chipsets for AMD boards. The Nforce2 comes to mind.
 

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,051
4,273
136
Be aware, there is a weird cult now around tech Jesus. You will go straight to reddit downvote hell if you dare speak ill against the savior there.

As I have written. He deserves great respect for his charitable work, consumer advocacy, and impressive investment in training and equipment, for technical testing. What I don't like. I have him as lowest tier for anything to do with testing hardware for gaming. They rarely play a game, they test it. Very limited utility. What they did with ARC was what has to be done to get it right. It has to be your daily driver. Since they can rarely do that and make money doing so, they can't be a resource I use for gaming stuff.

And all big channels were guilty of using fantasy land MSRP/RRP during the madness. No one was interested in reviews of stuff they couldn't buy. But all the negative train wreck click bait they could generate by using fake MSRP. Along with comparing to the historical frame of reference, despite having zero applicability to the situation at hand, picked traffic up. I understand, but I don't condone. In fact, I am a bit spicy about it, and how readily so many of our group fall in lock step.
The thing is, I have been doing this for decades (since the 80s, my first build was an 8088) and I own many of the products he reviews (including the 7950X), my results match his results pretty closely.

Unsure of what you mean regarding gameplay testing, since most of his reviews test actual gameplay. He has a fairly comprehensive set of games he tests. My only complaint (with him and any review site) is the the fact the benchmarks aren’t open source.

So if you think that makes me (or others) part of a cult, well that is fine I guess, however, that doesn’t change anything i have said. Steve is easily among the best out there. Things can change quickly however, Just see AnandTech. Once, AT was considered to be one of the vest hardware review sites out there. These days they may push put a CPU review if we are lucky.
 
Reactions: Aapje and ZGR

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
481
249
116
GN benchmarks hardware, not games. Their test suite seems adequately diverse and accomplishes the goal of showing relative differences between components. I can't recall any instances of them missing something that other hw reviewers found.

I think they sometimes focus too much on stuff that doesn't really matter (e.g. gpu disassembly difficulty, building an anechoic chamber for noise testing) but they are certainly a valuable contributor to the shrinking world of PC hardware reviewers
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,063
7,488
136
Back to the OP: AMD is always a day late and a dollar short.

ATI managed to trade blows with NV because back then all they had to focus on was gaming. If you're card gamed we'll, then it did all the productivity stuff well too and that was that. twas a simpler time.

With the DAAMIT merger and unified programmable shaders, things really went off the rails. Nvidia had vision, and saw their GPUs as processors equal and superior to any x86 chip produced by Intel or AMD. AMD on the other hand saw a GPU: a neat toy for playing vidjagayms faster and faster.

NV went all in on CUDA, on PhysX. They overbuilt their processors to be the best, not the cheapest or most efficient, and then made the industry bend to their will (see Tessellation).

Even when AMD got a whiff of what NV was cooking, they only ever thought in terms of their core CPU business with stuff like heterogenous computing. "How will the GPU help us make better CPUs" and never "what is the inherent potential in this massive computing array technology we have here".

NV kept pushing and pulling rabbits out of its hat: the Titan prosumer line, CUDA accelerated everything, incredible efficiency increases with Maxwell, they had a juggernaut of a hypetrain behind them that is still barreling down on us. Now we have "RTX" and "DLSS" and "NERFs". Are 95% of PC users ever going to care about the cutting edge stuff NV is doing? Nope. Does it feel cool to be part of the crowd that's doing it? Yep.

AMD is always following NV's lead. Hell after however many years AMD still doesn't have it's **** together with something like CUDA. They can't even pin down a gosh dang naming scheme, while NV has been mostly consistant since the GTX 2xx line. They bring these pristine proprietary techs down to the unwashed masses, never quite as polished or refined (even if functionally, practically, indestinguishable from the NV equivalent). Freesync is a poor man's Gsync. Rocm is a poor man's CUDA. FSR is a poor man's DLSS.

At the end of the day, people that use AMD cards are the less fortunate that couldn't make it into the walled garden of NV Valhalla. Everyone wants NV. And for everyone else, there is AMD.

That is why AMD are treated like they have AIDS.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
AMD did it too. I remember having to use silver paint to connect traces to unlock my Athlon XP's multiplier back in 01 or 02. Of course that was when Athlon XP was curbstomping the trash Pentium 4.

Ah, the pencil mod. Remember the Goldfinger device?

I remember those days. Intel fans started using Pentium M chips for laptops for desktops. Even then they could not match AMD. The Barton 2500+ was a slayer chip that could OC really well. That was back in the days when Nvidia made chipsets for AMD boards. The Nforce2 comes to mind.

Pentium M on the desktop. They couldn't really beat the Athlons, but they were extremely efficient trying. And the legendary nForce2. Those where the days.
 
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