Why don't more cars use diesel if it's the superior fuel?

[Vic]

Let's not take the argument to extremes here. Diesel is not the best thing since sliced bread. However, as the need for better fuel efficiency continues to grow, and as long as we remain reliant on various fossil fuels, diesels are the direction that we will need to go. That why I referred to it as "the fuel of the near future."

IMO the major issue with sticking with gasoline isn't just its inferior efficiency, but that alternative fuels for gasoline engines, like ethanol, are more expensive and less viable. OTOH, you can run used cooking oil through a diesel engine with only minor modifications.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: MrMajestyk
You guys in he US are denied some great Diesel cars. The BMW 330D, 530D is a truly great powerplant.

Fuel consumption figures are for Imperial gallon, which is 10% larger than US gallon.

Cylinders/valves 6/4
Capacity cc 2993
Stroke/Bore (mm) 90/84
Max output (kW/hp/rpm) 170/231/4000
Max torque (Nm/rpm) 500/1750
Fuel consumption (Imperial)
Urban (mpg) 31.7 (28.2)
Extra-urban (mpg) 55.4 (47.9)
Combined (mpg) 43.5 (38.2)

Then there's the 32OD four banger

Max output (kW/hp/rpm) 120/163/4000
Max torque (Nm/rpm) 340/2000
Fuel consumption (Imperial) Urban (mpg) 36.2(31.0)
Extra-urban (mpg) 62.8(53.3)
Combined (mpg) 49.6(42.2)

www.bmw.co.uk

For many years, we in the UK were denied diesel models of BMW, Mercedes and Audi. Although you could buy them in Europe, albeit in LHD, we could not.
All because Mercedes and BMW didn't want their marque associated with 'dirty diesels' and overcharged UK buyers for equivalent gas models compared to their European partners.
I don't think that is happening in the US, although when I visit I'm amazed at how few BMW's and Mercs you actually see. They still seem to be a 'rich man's car'. Come to London and you'll see as many Merc's as you will Nisssans. And cars are not cheap here compared to the US.

I've already posted regarding the 335d and it's prodigious power output.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Vic
Let's not take the argument to extremes here. Diesel is not the best thing since sliced bread. However, as the need for better fuel efficiency continues to grow, and as long as we remain reliant on various fossil fuels, diesels are the direction that we will need to go. That why I referred to it as "the fuel of the near future."

IMO the major issue with sticking with gasoline isn't just its inferior efficiency, but that alternative fuels for gasoline engines, like ethanol, are more expensive and less viable. OTOH, you can run used cooking oil through a diesel engine with NO modifications.

Fixed. A diesel motor will run on vegetable oil right out of the factory. The only issue you may have is congealing in cold weather. To prevent that you can add 10-15% gas or other solvent like alcohol.

 

[jamesave]

If you can answer why US still use the british unit instead of metric, you probably can answer your own question.

 

[GPett]

Yeah, turbo diesel is really an untapped consumer product. There is a race car that gets something like 130mpg yet averages over 120mp on the track. The technology exists. We just need to implement it.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
IMHO US automakers don't want to spend time and money retooling car building processes to switch from gas to diesel.

US automakers like to sit back and think that it's 1950 where every other industralized country had been bombed into rubble.

Yeah...and that's why no Japanese companies have diesel cars in the USA...you're brilliant!!

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Fox5
Can you give exact values? Up until recently, I always recall that a gallon of diesel was notably cheaper than a gallon of gas. Even now, diesel typically isn't that much more expensive and it's produced at a much lower volume (so less economies of scale, theoretically) so it may win out in cost per energy anyway.

I believe 1 gallon of diesel needs 17% more equivalent oil than gasoline. I don't know the exact numbers for different vehicles for diesel MPG vs gas MPG, but you can bet for most vehicles it isn't so drastically high as to overcome that 17% difference. Big semis are another story though.

Why's that? Does it depend on a limited source? Does it require far more expensive plants to produce?

Oil when typically refined gives about 2 gallons of gas per gallon of diesel. That can be tweaked slightly (as neither gasoline nor diesel are pure products you can get a little diesel in the gas or a little gas in the diesel and still be ok). If we all had diesel only, what would we do with all that leftover gas? Also, our refineries are nearly maxed out now, we'd need double the volume of oil to switch to diesel. You'll really see worldwide ~2/3rds gas to ~1/3rd diesel usage in the long run for that reason. Any significant deviation would give significant cost difference between diesel and gasoline.

The limited production of consumer vehicles using diesel in Europe does seem to imply there's a net cost advantage to using diesel.

I believe diesel tax is far, far less than gas tax in Europe. Thus, there is a good reason to want a diesel vehicle there.

Diesel is nice. But to just call it outright superior is wrong.

In the UK diesel costs more than petrol (2~5% or so), but in mainland Europe it's cheaper (5% or so again).

 

[drnickriviera]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: Vic
Let's not take the argument to extremes here. Diesel is not the best thing since sliced bread. However, as the need for better fuel efficiency continues to grow, and as long as we remain reliant on various fossil fuels, diesels are the direction that we will need to go. That why I referred to it as "the fuel of the near future."

IMO the major issue with sticking with gasoline isn't just its inferior efficiency, but that alternative fuels for gasoline engines, like ethanol, are more expensive and less viable. OTOH, you can run used cooking oil through a diesel engine with NO modifications.

Fixed. A diesel motor will run on vegetable oil right out of the factory. The only issue you may have is congealing in cold weather. To prevent that you can add 10-15% gas or other solvent like alcohol.

Not always true. try running vegie oil through an early 2000's Ram 2500 and watch that $1000 VP44 injection pump go bye bye. Some say the heat required to get the oil to the right viscosity fries the electronics inside the pump, as it's cooled and lubricated by the fuel.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: nweaver

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Fox5
Can you give exact values? Up until recently, I always recall that a gallon of diesel was notably cheaper than a gallon of gas. Even now, diesel typically isn't that much more expensive and it's produced at a much lower volume (so less economies of scale, theoretically) so it may win out in cost per energy anyway.

I believe 1 gallon of diesel needs 17% more equivalent oil than gasoline. I don't know the exact numbers for different vehicles for diesel MPG vs gas MPG, but you can bet for most vehicles it isn't so drastically high as to overcome that 17% difference. Big semis are another story though.

Why's that? Does it depend on a limited source? Does it require far more expensive plants to produce?

Oil when typically refined gives about 2 gallons of gas per gallon of diesel. That can be tweaked slightly (as neither gasoline nor diesel are pure products you can get a little diesel in the gas or a little gas in the diesel and still be ok). If we all had diesel only, what would we do with all that leftover gas? Also, our refineries are nearly maxed out now, we'd need double the volume of oil to switch to diesel. You'll really see worldwide ~2/3rds gas to ~1/3rd diesel usage in the long run for that reason. Any significant deviation would give significant cost difference between diesel and gasoline.

The limited production of consumer vehicles using diesel in Europe does seem to imply there's a net cost advantage to using diesel.

I believe diesel tax is far, far less than gas tax in Europe. Thus, there is a good reason to want a diesel vehicle there.

Diesel is nice. But to just call it outright superior is wrong.

your numbers mean nothing without something to back them up...not saying you are wrong, just asking for you to document the numbers.

His numbers sound about right - if you really want to know, do some basic research on it and you'll find that Dullard's probably right on the dot.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Why don't more cars use diesel if it's the supchug chug chug chug chug chug RUMBLE RUMBLE CLATTER CLATTER CHUGGA CHUGGA WOO WOO chug chug chug

I'm sorry, what were you saying? I couldn't hear you over your VW Jetta TDI School Bus Edition.

- M4H

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: brandonbull
IMHO US automakers don't want to spend time and money retooling car building processes to switch from gas to diesel.

US automakers like to sit back and think that it's 1950 where every other industralized country had been bombed into rubble.

Yeah...and that's why no Japanese companies have diesel cars in the USA...you're brilliant!!

Not sure what you are saying.

Why would automakers want to switch from gas to diesel when gas engines sell fine in the US? Automakers would need to redesign the power train, exhaust, and other components of new cars. They would need to have supplies switch from gas to diesel engines. In the interm, car makers and suppliers would need to carry double replacements parts for gas and diesel engines.

My second comment was about US factories not regarding foreign companies as being a competitor and refusing to innovate. That's why the Big 3 got caught with their pants down and let the Japs bitchslap them.

 

[Quasmo]

I think the real question here is, "Who buys a diesel PT Cruiser?" Those cars sound and handle like a crappy battery operated golf cart.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Fox5
Can you give exact values? Up until recently, I always recall that a gallon of diesel was notably cheaper than a gallon of gas. Even now, diesel typically isn't that much more expensive and it's produced at a much lower volume (so less economies of scale, theoretically) so it may win out in cost per energy anyway.

I believe 1 gallon of diesel needs 17% more equivalent oil than gasoline. I don't know the exact numbers for different vehicles for diesel MPG vs gas MPG, but you can bet for most vehicles it isn't so drastically high as to overcome that 17% difference. Big semis are another story though.

Why's that? Does it depend on a limited source? Does it require far more expensive plants to produce?

Oil when typically refined gives about 2 gallons of gas per gallon of diesel. That can be tweaked slightly (as neither gasoline nor diesel are pure products you can get a little diesel in the gas or a little gas in the diesel and still be ok). If we all had diesel only, what would we do with all that leftover gas? Also, our refineries are nearly maxed out now, we'd need double the volume of oil to switch to diesel. You'll really see worldwide ~2/3rds gas to ~1/3rd diesel usage in the long run for that reason. Any significant deviation would give significant cost difference between diesel and gasoline.

The limited production of consumer vehicles using diesel in Europe does seem to imply there's a net cost advantage to using diesel.

I believe diesel tax is far, far less than gas tax in Europe. Thus, there is a good reason to want a diesel vehicle there.

Diesel is nice. But to just call it outright superior is wrong.

Afaik it doesnt work like that. The refining of crude oil gives a whole range of products from heavy oil to light gas - and all of them have their uses. It is not like here is a liter of oil now we make a liter of gas out of it.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: brandonbull
IMHO US automakers don't want to spend time and money retooling car building processes to switch from gas to diesel.

US automakers like to sit back and think that it's 1950 where every other industralized country had been bombed into rubble.

Yeah...and that's why no Japanese companies have diesel cars in the USA...you're brilliant!!

Not sure what you are saying.

Why would automakers want to switch from gas to diesel when gas engines sell fine in the US? Automakers would need to redesign the power train, exhaust, and other components of new cars. They would need to have supplies switch from gas to diesel engines. In the interm, car makers and suppliers would need to carry double replacements parts for gas and diesel engines.

Not they wouldn't.
As was mentioned earlier, most of the "Big 3" have diesels elsewhere in the world, or have subsidiaries who have diesels. The car manufacturers and designers already have all the components they need, or can get easy access to them without any hassle.

 

[0roo0roo]

cuz until very recently the exhaust was literally carcinogenic

lung cancer ftl!!!!!!

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Fox5
Can you give exact values? Up until recently, I always recall that a gallon of diesel was notably cheaper than a gallon of gas. Even now, diesel typically isn't that much more expensive and it's produced at a much lower volume (so less economies of scale, theoretically) so it may win out in cost per energy anyway.

I believe 1 gallon of diesel needs 17% more equivalent oil than gasoline. I don't know the exact numbers for different vehicles for diesel MPG vs gas MPG, but you can bet for most vehicles it isn't so drastically high as to overcome that 17% difference. Big semis are another story though.

Why's that? Does it depend on a limited source? Does it require far more expensive plants to produce?

Oil when typically refined gives about 2 gallons of gas per gallon of diesel. That can be tweaked slightly (as neither gasoline nor diesel are pure products you can get a little diesel in the gas or a little gas in the diesel and still be ok). If we all had diesel only, what would we do with all that leftover gas? Also, our refineries are nearly maxed out now, we'd need double the volume of oil to switch to diesel. You'll really see worldwide ~2/3rds gas to ~1/3rd diesel usage in the long run for that reason. Any significant deviation would give significant cost difference between diesel and gasoline.

The limited production of consumer vehicles using diesel in Europe does seem to imply there's a net cost advantage to using diesel.

I believe diesel tax is far, far less than gas tax in Europe. Thus, there is a good reason to want a diesel vehicle there.

Diesel is nice. But to just call it outright superior is wrong.

Afaik it doesnt work like that. The refining of crude oil gives a whole range of products from heavy oil to light gas - and all of them have their uses. It is not like here is a liter of oil now we make a liter of gas out of it.

true, but what are the ratios of end results after refining. i know they can further crack lighter hydrocarbons into what they want but theres probably a point where its worth it and where its not. so it would be nice to know....

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: dullard
You get more miles per "gallon" using uranium. Thus, uranium must be a superior fuel. Why don't cars all use uranium?

See that logic doesn't quite make sense. Same applies to diesel. Having more energy per volume doesn't make a fuel superior. There are many other important characteristics to consider.

If they built a car that runs with a tiny fission reactor under the hood, I would happily test drive that sucker all the way to the bank!

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Why don't more cars use diesel if it's the supchug chug chug chug chug chug RUMBLE RUMBLE CLATTER CLATTER CHUGGA CHUGGA WOO WOO chug chug chug

I'm sorry, what were you saying? I couldn't hear you over your VW Jetta TDI School Bus Edition.

- M4H

 

[Gamingphreek]

Also while many argue that Diesel is cleaner, it is, from what I remember, merely polluting with different chemicals. It's still polluting just in a different way.

Don't get me wrong though, I think Diesel engines are far better than gasoline engines in most respects (Thats why I'm looking at a Jetta TDI as a college student- ~50mpg Highway would be magnificent)

-Kevin

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I think diesel-electric cars will be the way of the future. Just like trains, it'll allow the engine to rev at its most efficient range and eliminate the transmission.

:thumbsup:

I'd tend to agree.


I dunno though, I think we need to make some technological advancements. Is it really going to be better to operate an automobile using engine > generator > batteries > electric motor than just a single gasoline engine?

I guess with enough engineering and forethought, we could make some pretty damn efficient single-RPM diesel engines and generators... I'd be really interested to know how this panned out energy consumption wise.

I'm not even sure we'd need batteries. If they want to make a simple version, they can just have the diesel engine and electric motor.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: brandonbull
IMHO US automakers don't want to spend time and money retooling car building processes to switch from gas to diesel.

US automakers like to sit back and think that it's 1950 where every other industralized country had been bombed into rubble.

Que? You just drop in a Diesel motor, it's hardly a 'retool' job.

Chrysler sell the 300 in Europe with a Diesel, for example. The Voyager, the PT cruiser, the Calibur. All with Diesels.

Not to mention Ford make a lot of diesels, and most US auto companies own at least one European car company who sells diesel cars.
Most manufacturers who sell in the US sell diesels in Europe, often on the same chassis.



But diesels don't get low 0-60 times for the most part, and don't sound like meaty V8's that you can rev at the traffic lights.

e92 335d is a beast @ ~6 seconds to 60 (it's 6.1 to 62, so around 6 or just under).

the audi A8 TDI is actually quicker than its gasoline counterpart in 0-60 times

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Fox5
Can you give exact values? Up until recently, I always recall that a gallon of diesel was notably cheaper than a gallon of gas. Even now, diesel typically isn't that much more expensive and it's produced at a much lower volume (so less economies of scale, theoretically) so it may win out in cost per energy anyway.

I believe 1 gallon of diesel needs 17% more equivalent oil than gasoline. I don't know the exact numbers for different vehicles for diesel MPG vs gas MPG, but you can bet for most vehicles it isn't so drastically high as to overcome that 17% difference. Big semis are another story though.

Why's that? Does it depend on a limited source? Does it require far more expensive plants to produce?

Oil when typically refined gives about 2 gallons of gas per gallon of diesel. That can be tweaked slightly (as neither gasoline nor diesel are pure products you can get a little diesel in the gas or a little gas in the diesel and still be ok). If we all had diesel only, what would we do with all that leftover gas? Also, our refineries are nearly maxed out now, we'd need double the volume of oil to switch to diesel. You'll really see worldwide ~2/3rds gas to ~1/3rd diesel usage in the long run for that reason. Any significant deviation would give significant cost difference between diesel and gasoline.

The limited production of consumer vehicles using diesel in Europe does seem to imply there's a net cost advantage to using diesel.

I believe diesel tax is far, far less than gas tax in Europe. Thus, there is a good reason to want a diesel vehicle there.

Diesel is nice. But to just call it outright superior is wrong.

Afaik it doesnt work like that. The refining of crude oil gives a whole range of products from heavy oil to light gas - and all of them have their uses. It is not like here is a liter of oil now we make a liter of gas out of it.

I'm guessing you can't make an engine that can burn crude oil?

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: jamesave
If you can answer why US still use the british unit instead of metric, you probably can answer your own question.

That made no sense.

 

[91TTZ]

I thought this would be useful in this thread:

What you get from a barrel of oil

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: drnickriviera

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: Vic
Let's not take the argument to extremes here. Diesel is not the best thing since sliced bread. However, as the need for better fuel efficiency continues to grow, and as long as we remain reliant on various fossil fuels, diesels are the direction that we will need to go. That why I referred to it as "the fuel of the near future."

IMO the major issue with sticking with gasoline isn't just its inferior efficiency, but that alternative fuels for gasoline engines, like ethanol, are more expensive and less viable. OTOH, you can run used cooking oil through a diesel engine with NO modifications.

Fixed. A diesel motor will run on vegetable oil right out of the factory. The only issue you may have is congealing in cold weather. To prevent that you can add 10-15% gas or other solvent like alcohol.

Not always true. try running vegie oil through an early 2000's Ram 2500 and watch that $1000 VP44 injection pump go bye bye. Some say the heat required to get the oil to the right viscosity fries the electronics inside the pump, as it's cooled and lubricated by the fuel.

I would suggest that the vehicle you mention just has a crummy pump. A good friend of mine runs his 1995 Mitsubishi 2.8v6 TDi on veggie and has no such pump related issues.

The lubrication argument is a bit silly, dontcha think?