why everybody emphasizes PSU

[Ayah]

Look out for our friendly overmarkers who mark their PSUs for peak power which last for fractions of a second.

 

[Slammy1]

A lot of problems have characteristic symptoms and there are nice freeware packages to test them. PSU is centrol to the PC, so problems can manifest as failure in any component. As a result, when problems become too difficult for the tools laid out for us one of the first suspects is the PSU (it's often driver related impacting several subsystems). It's worth an extra $30-50 for a PSU that can survive system modification though I seldom carry them into final upgrades (when I'm in the process of upgrading, I'll update what I can then make the MoBo/CPU/Memory/Video upgrade). I think I'm at least a year from the next one.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: spikespiegal
A good PSU is essential for a stable system.

Unfortunatley, we had little guidance as to determining what brands/types of PSUs meet these requirements.

I'd guess 90% of the posters in this thread would rattle off some brand or model number of a PSU based on it's total wattage, or ability to run multiple LED fans and over-priced video card. Chances are that same PSU is made on the same production line in China as less glamourous 'junk' PSU's that come with budget computer cases.

By the standards mentioned above, the 250watt PSU's used in my servers are crap and need to be replaced with gamer PSU's because they don't have enough wattage, and the correct Western name on the outside.

So you didn't actually read any of the responses or get involved in any of the PSU discussions we have on Anandtech? Perhaps you're "too good" to participate?

I'm not saying you're wrong in your statement(s), but I disagree with your generalization of "90% of the posters in this thread."

 

[sniperruff]

think of a CPU as the brain, and the mobo as the body. the PSU would be the heart. all three are crucial.

 

[iamaelephant]

I've always had cheap PSUs. Always. And I've owned a lot of systems, and I've never had a PSU-related failure. I think quality PSUs are overrated and I think people are too quick to blame a PSU for their problems. I there's a power surge or outage or anything of that nature that damages components, people blame their PSU. I've never paid more than $90NZD (~$55-$60 USD) for a PSU.

 

[BoberFett]

iamaelephant

I've had good luck with cheap PSUs as well. I've also had bad luck. When a crash-prone machine suddenly stops crashing after doing nothing but replacing the PSU, it's pretty obvious what was at fault.

 

[munisgtm]

so what PSU you guys could recommend ? from these two brands : Aopen(400W) ,Coolermaster(400W,450Wand 550W) and how much watts should be in PSU if one is using SLI ?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Blain
1. A quality PS supplies steady, clean power to your components. It can last through several upgrades or rebuilds and keep chugging on.
* You never have to think about it. :thumbsup:
2. A cheap PS can fluctuate in its output and cause reboots, lockups, etc. It has a short life span.
* You're always posting in here asking why your system is acting up. :thumbsdown:

Exactly. It might not kill your system, but I can guarantee you more lockups would occur, and if you have to reformat a lot, maybe that's why too.

It's just like cars. You can use cheap motor oil, cheap everything, and you might be fine. Your car might not be spanking fresh like another car using the best of everything. You might not notice because day to date you can drive to work, just like youcan probably still use AIM and game with a crappy PSU.

You should avoid AOpen and Coolermaster and blah blah.

If you think Antec is expensive, you got issues. Antec should be medium range for you, just like Fortron, Sparkle. Expensive is like Seasonic and that's only hte beginning of expensive. Expensive is like PC P&C or Zippy =]

 

[movingincircles]

bought a generic one before

i thought it was no big deal until the fan crapped out three months after. Ended up burning my comp.

Huge hassle, make sure u buy a good psu. If not, at least make sure the fans are ball bearing.

 

[Blain]

:laugh: People will spend huge amounts on an SLI setup, yet want a PS for less than $50 :laugh:

With the exception of a few great OCing CPU's... There is NO FREE LUNCH in the hardware world! :roll:

 

[honkee]

i had a pos demon psu take out my friends first build.
what a thing to witness for the both of us
Needless to say he has a dell now and is scarred for life from building his own pc

 

[honkee]

for that pricerange, rosewill makes the best psus

 

[furballi]

Fair value of a quality PSU is around $30. Therefore, I wouldn't pay more than $60 for a brand name PSU (Fortron, Enermax, Antec, and Sparkle). I do not purchase generic PSU. Forking over $100 for a PSU is also foolish, because the small gain in performance does not warrant the huge price premium (marketing 101).

 

[gokuhama]

Paying $100 for a PSU is not foolish, but it depends on the purpose for which it is intended. For a personal computer most good PSUs should range about $35-$70. However if you need a something like a 700watt PSU then you are probably going to be looking in the $100+ range.

 

[furballi]

Hehehehhh...show me a PC that pulls 700 watts! A loaded PC may pull 300 watts. $450 watts MAX with SLI. Conroe will consume even less power.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: furballi
Hehehehhh...show me a PC that pulls 700 watts! A loaded PC may pull 300 watts. $450 watts MAX with SLI. Conroe will consume even less power.

You're trying to make a point using the same flawed logic many people use to justify buying the wrong power supply in the first place: Watts don't mean squat.

A 500w PSU can put out 500W, but who would need that? But what does it put out on the rails you need the most? Say your PC needs 95% of it's power to be on the 12V rails. What if the 12V rail capability of the 500W in question is only 384W?

Also, this wattage doesn't take into consideration derating curve. If a PC derates at 3W per 1C at 40C and up, your 500W isn't putting out 500W in a 48C case.

And I think your power consumption guestimate is way off base. There's plenty of reviews out there that load up PSU's with 384W on the 12V rail and bring them to their knees. Since a PSU can't be rated at less than what it's 12V capability alone is, how would a 300W power supply pull that off?

 

[furballi]

Hmmm...let's use PIE IN THE SKY calculation. No current PC is going to pull more than about 450 watts from the wall. Let's assume the PSU is 90% efficient. The true load would be 405 watts. Let's be conservative and allocate 50 watts to the 3.3V and 5V rails. We're down to 355 watts on the 12V rail(s). That's about 30 amps total. A decent PSU rated at 30 amps continuous on the 12V rails (or 15A x 2) should be sufficient assuming the PSU receives adequate ventilation (30C intake, 45C exhaust).

In actual use, the maximum load on the 12V rails is closer to 300 watts with a high-end rig. 200 watts for AMD without SLI!

Those websites are using the 384W load because most quality PSUs are rated at that level. This DOES NOT translate to real-world power consumption! With the proliferation of dual rail PSU, the average user can oveload one 12V rail, causing a short term overload condition at peak power.

To those who still have reservation...get a power meter and connect it to your PC. Run your most intensive application and record the peak power load. Multiply this number by 0.85 (best efficiency for many PSUs) and you will have a very close approximation of the actual peak PC load. Finally, subtract about 25 watts to obtain the load on the 12V rails. Make sure you evenly distribute the 12V loads if you have a dual rail PSU.

 

[orangat]

Originally posted by: furballi
Hmmm...let's use PIE IN THE SKY calculation. No current PC is going to pull more than about 450 watts from the wall. Let's assume the PSU is 90% efficient. The true load would be 405 watts. Let's be conservative and allocate 50 watts to the 3.3V and 5V rails. We're down to 355 watts on the 12V rail(s). That's about 30 amps total. A decent PSU rated at 30 amps continuous on the 12V rails (or 15A x 2) should be sufficient assuming the PSU receives adequate ventilation (30C intake, 45C exhaust).

In actual use, the maximum load on the 12V rails is closer to 300 watts with a high-end rig. 200 watts for AMD without SLI!

Those websites are using the 384W load because most quality PSUs are rated at that level. This DOES NOT translate to real-world power consumption! With the proliferation of dual rail PSU, the average user can oveload one 12V rail, causing a short term overload condition at peak power.

To those who still have reservation...get a power meter and connect it to your PC. Run your most intensive application and record the peak power load. Multiply this number by 0.85 (best efficiency for many PSUs) and you will have a very close approximation of the actual peak PC load. Finally, subtract about 25 watts to obtain the load on the 12V rails. Make sure you evenly distribute the 12V loads if you have a dual rail PSU.

So if a high end sli rig pulls a max of 300W on the 12V and the 3.3/5V rails are usually rated at least about 30-35A on each rail which is approximately 265W total (for 3.3/5V), then a safe recommendation would be at least 565W. Which means 700W isn't too far off and is probably a safe option too wouldn't it?

So why criticise a 700W purchase?
And also split 12V rails unfortunately mean alot of the capacity has to be left unused and therefore some overspec'ing is needed.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: furballi
Hmmm...let's use PIE IN THE SKY calculation. No current PC is going to pull more than about 450 watts from the wall. Let's assume the PSU is 90% efficient. The true load would be 405 watts. Let's be conservative and allocate 50 watts to the 3.3V and 5V rails. We're down to 355 watts on the 12V rail(s). That's about 30 amps total. A decent PSU rated at 30 amps continuous on the 12V rails (or 15A x 2) should be sufficient assuming the PSU receives adequate ventilation (30C intake, 45C exhaust).

In actual use, the maximum load on the 12V rails is closer to 300 watts with a high-end rig. 200 watts for AMD without SLI!

Those websites are using the 384W load because most quality PSUs are rated at that level. This DOES NOT translate to real-world power consumption! With the proliferation of dual rail PSU, the average user can oveload one 12V rail, causing a short term overload condition at peak power.

To those who still have reservation...get a power meter and connect it to your PC. Run your most intensive application and record the peak power load. Multiply this number by 0.85 (best efficiency for many PSUs) and you will have a very close approximation of the actual peak PC load. Finally, subtract about 25 watts to obtain the load on the 12V rails. Make sure you evenly distribute the 12V loads if you have a dual rail PSU.

You're just not using a rig of the same level as some of these review sites.

It's easy to overload the 12V rail. That's why more and more we're seeing power supplies with more juice on the 12V rail.

Crossfire 1900XT's can easily draw 20A alone. Quad-SLI easily 22A. Seagate's 7800 RPM drives spin up and draw 2.8A each. What if you have a four drive RAID array?

Also, you're not taking into consideration longevity. A PSU is naturally going to last longer when used at only 50% of it's capacity as opposed to 90% of it's capacity.

 

[AntecTechLevel4]

Originally posted by: furballi
Fair value of a quality PSU is around $30. Therefore, I wouldn't pay more than $60 for a brand name PSU (Fortron, Enermax, Antec, and Sparkle). I do not purchase generic PSU. Forking over $100 for a PSU is also foolish, because the small gain in performance does not warrant the huge price premium (marketing 101).

Hello! Let me say a few words!
I deal with customers on a daily basis. I can tell you that when we develope a new PSU the r&d dollars just to test and double check the PSU is very very high.

Your reason for not spending more than $60 on a PSU is not an informed reason.
From thye buisness end we have as of July 1, 2006 started using new caps in all our PSU`s.
We have quit using fuhjyyu Caps totally.
We now use Rubycon caps and Nippon Chemicon caps exclusively.

We are dedicated to putting out a quality PSU.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: AntecTechLevel4

Originally posted by: furballi
Fair value of a quality PSU is around $30. Therefore, I wouldn't pay more than $60 for a brand name PSU (Fortron, Enermax, Antec, and Sparkle). I do not purchase generic PSU. Forking over $100 for a PSU is also foolish, because the small gain in performance does not warrant the huge price premium (marketing 101).

Hello! Let me say a few words!
I deal with customers on a daily basis. I can tell you that when we develope a new PSU the r&d dollars just to test and double check the PSU is very very high.

Your reason for not spending more than $60 on a PSU is not an informed reason.
From thye buisness end we have as of July 1, 2006 started using new caps in all our PSU`s.
We have quit using fuhjyyu Caps totally.
We now use Rubycon caps and Nippon Chemicon caps exclusively.

We are dedicated to putting out a quality PSU.

This is excellent news, but I'll wait until new units are opened up.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: orangat

Originally posted by: furballi
Hmmm...let's use PIE IN THE SKY calculation. No current PC is going to pull more than about 450 watts from the wall. Let's assume the PSU is 90% efficient. The true load would be 405 watts. Let's be conservative and allocate 50 watts to the 3.3V and 5V rails. We're down to 355 watts on the 12V rail(s). That's about 30 amps total. A decent PSU rated at 30 amps continuous on the 12V rails (or 15A x 2) should be sufficient assuming the PSU receives adequate ventilation (30C intake, 45C exhaust).

In actual use, the maximum load on the 12V rails is closer to 300 watts with a high-end rig. 200 watts for AMD without SLI!

Those websites are using the 384W load because most quality PSUs are rated at that level. This DOES NOT translate to real-world power consumption! With the proliferation of dual rail PSU, the average user can oveload one 12V rail, causing a short term overload condition at peak power.

To those who still have reservation...get a power meter and connect it to your PC. Run your most intensive application and record the peak power load. Multiply this number by 0.85 (best efficiency for many PSUs) and you will have a very close approximation of the actual peak PC load. Finally, subtract about 25 watts to obtain the load on the 12V rails. Make sure you evenly distribute the 12V loads if you have a dual rail PSU.

So if a high end sli rig pulls a max of 300W on the 12V and the 3.3/5V rails are usually rated at least about 30-35A on each rail which is approximately 265W total (for 3.3/5V), then a safe recommendation would be at least 565W. Which means 700W isn't too far off and is probably a safe option too wouldn't it?

So why criticise a 700W purchase?
And also split 12V rails unfortunately mean alot of the capacity has to be left unused and therefore some overspec'ing is needed.

How do you figure your math is correct?

 

[Ayah]

Originally posted by: AntecTechLevel4

Originally posted by: furballi
Fair value of a quality PSU is around $30. Therefore, I wouldn't pay more than $60 for a brand name PSU (Fortron, Enermax, Antec, and Sparkle). I do not purchase generic PSU. Forking over $100 for a PSU is also foolish, because the small gain in performance does not warrant the huge price premium (marketing 101).

Hello! Let me say a few words!
I deal with customers on a daily basis. I can tell you that when we develope a new PSU the r&d dollars just to test and double check the PSU is very very high.

Your reason for not spending more than $60 on a PSU is not an informed reason.
From thye buisness end we have as of July 1, 2006 started using new caps in all our PSU`s.
We have quit using fuhjyyu Caps totally.
We now use Rubycon caps and Nippon Chemicon caps exclusively.

We are dedicated to putting out a quality PSU.

Is this guy for real? (the antec tech)

 

[furballi]

A modern PC draws little juice from the 3.3V and 5V rails. Many PSU manufacturers cheated by listing maximum power with a good portion of the output coming from the 3.3V and 5V rails. One must confirm that the PSU can deliver about 30A continuous at the 12V rails, PLUS about 40 watts at the 3.3V and 5V rails. As for peak load, almost any good PSU can deliver a significant amount of current for a short period of time necessary for startup!

The average PC will see the highest load when the CPU and GPU are running at 100% level. Other components are ON, but they are not churning at full speed. Therefore, the actual real-world maximum combined load is closer to to 300 watts, rather than the worst case calculation of 355 watts.

People don't run a PC at maximum load 24/7 (system including CPU and GPU at 100% power level). Therefore, a PSU running at 75% of rated output for 10 hours a day should last at least 3 to 4 years. The #1 killer of a PSU is HEAT. Keep the case well ventitaled and you will outgrow your PSU. The key is NOT to overload the 12V rail IF you have a dual rail PSU. You need to BALANCE the load between the two rails. I prefer a single rail 30A 12V PSU over a dual rail 15A 12V PSU.

Again, no need to get into a pissing contest. Recommended spec amperage does not translate to real world power draw. Just hook up a AC power meter to your rig to figure out how much load is being placed on your PSU. I'll bet that 99% of the PC owners will see less than 300 watts TOTAL ACTUAL power draw (3.3V + 5V + 12V rails).

The basic PSU design has been around for decades. I worked in the aerospace industry for years, where power, efficiency, and weight are a premium. It would be cheaper for Antec to hire these engineers as consultants, rather than wasting more $ on R&D to re-invent the wheel. Of course the bottomline is profit per unit sold. If Antec cannot build a quality PSU for $60, then there are many other companies that can, and those companies will take away Antec's marketshare. That's the power of a free market economy.

Putting quality capacitors in the PSU is a good first step. You also need to tighten up QC because I've seen quite a few posts will blown Antec PSU. Perhaps Antec sells more PSUs than other manufacturers, so the percentage of bad units is on par with the competitions. You need to share this info with the consumers. You also need to cover to return shipping on a defective Antec PSU that's covered by warranty.

 

[w00t]

Originally posted by: Blain
1. A quality PS supplies steady, clean power to your components. It can last through several upgrades or rebuilds and keep chugging on.
* You never have to think about it. :thumbsup:
2. A cheap PS can fluctuate in its output and cause reboots, lockups, etc. It has a short life span.
* You're always posting in here asking why your system is acting up. :thumbsdown: