Why hasnt there been another game like Planetside?

FerraraZ

Senior member
Feb 10, 2008
649
3
81
The MMOFPS genre took off with Sony's Planetside. Granted it had its flaws but I've yet to see another game be soo open and player driven on a massive scale. I still remember trying to take a base with hundreds of players outside and just knowing the Conglomerate had hundreds more inside that base.

I know they are making a Planetside 2 but I mean its been what 10 years or so since a successful MMOFPS was on the market? Planetside is still going but like most MMO's lost its luster after the first few months.
 

Jessestephens

Junior Member
Oct 6, 2010
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0
www.monitortans.com
I have fond memories of Planetside. I would certainly be interested in Planetside 2. I just hope they don't focus so much on the BFR Mech things. That part wasn't really up my alley. I liked it with the infantry, mechanized armor and aircraft.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Yeah the mechs are what turned me off. Otherwise it was a fantastic game. MMOFPS is hard to do because a lot of people wouldn't pay to play planetside. If they did what other MMO's are doing and release it free with micro transactions, they would get a lot more players and possibly more money.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
There hasn't been another game like it because it's a technical nightmare to make a true MMOFPS.

Sorry kids, Global Agenda, APB, Huxley... yeah, no. They're not MMOFPS's... they FPS's with a 3D interactive lobby.

Technically speaking, getting a couple hundred connections at a time to a server is bad enough. I mean seriously, why don't you see more games like Unreal Tournament, Doom, Bad Company 2, etc have maps/servers running more than 16-20 players on a side? Because the quality of the connection, along with the quality of the hit testing and movement calculations that must be done on that server and then retransmitted back to each client is insane.

Workarounds? Sure... offload hit testing to the client. Why it's not feasible? Cheating.

Planetside stripped out as much data as it could in order to make the game semi-palatable to players. Hell I enjoyed it, and it was pretty good. But man, sometimes it was annoying as hell to try to play sniper and have to lead a target sometimes half a screen in order to score a hit.

I long for the day where I can see an effective 200/200 FPS battle again, complete with artillery and whatnot. Until then, I'll just have fond memories of Planetside.
 

xCxStylex

Senior member
Apr 6, 2003
710
0
0
I never played planetside but was Tabula Rasa close? I had a ton of fun playing it early on
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
Oh I have such fond memories of Planetside. Sure it was imprecise, but it was epic on a scale that I've never played, except for possibly Allegiance.
 

JoshGuru7

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2001
1,020
0
0
I really tried to like Planetside but what eventually caused me to move on was the inconsistent latency. I had had plenty of experience playing FPS games on both high latency and low latency up to that point, but my latency in Planetside seemed to jump between 150 to 250 almost arbitrarily, and that introduced too much randomness for my taste.
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,188
87
91
madgenius.com
Technically speaking, getting a couple hundred connections at a time to a server is bad enough. I mean seriously, why don't you see more games like Unreal Tournament, Doom, Bad Company 2, etc have maps/servers running more than 16-20 players on a side? Because the quality of the connection, along with the quality of the hit testing and movement calculations that must be done on that server and then retransmitted back to each client is insane.

This is totally wrong..the bandwidth is there. It's not exactly cheap, but that is why you pay per month.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
This is totally wrong..the bandwidth is there. It's not exactly cheap, but that is why you pay per month.

I'm not even remotely talking about bandwidth.

I'm talking about PROCESSING those connections and trying to update several hundred/thousand client nodes with PRECISE location/timing/action data all at the same time so as to minimize the impact of latency issues caused by client connections, bandwidth constraints and processing time.

There's a reason why MMORPGs work: Because the reaction time in MMORPGs doesn't need to be sub-second precise. In world of whorecrap a couple seconds of lag between one player and another in terms of play experience is meaningless, even in PvP. Try to calculate dozens of bullets hit testing a few dozen people that are continually moving relative to eachother where reaction times need to be in the millisecond range, and it's a recipe for disaster. Planetside was nothing short of remarkable, but man, on the days where lag was king it was really bad.

And yes, bandwidth IS cheap... unless you're a residential consumer.
 
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ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,188
87
91
madgenius.com
I'm not talking about bandwidth. I'm talking about PROCESSING those connections and trying to update several hundred/thousand client nodes with PRECISE location/timing/action data all at the same time so as to minimize the impact of latency issues caused by client connections, bandwidth constraints and processing time.

And yes, bandwidth IS cheap... unless you're a residential consumer.

Assuming you can let users pick a server by location, shouldn't be hard to do a few hundred in one world/map. If you were spreading everyone across multiple DC's, yes, that would be a little more difficult.

Bandwidth is only cheaper in the 1GB+ range.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
Assuming you can let users pick a server by location, shouldn't be hard to do a few hundred in one world/map. If you were spreading everyone across multiple DC's, yes, that would be a little more difficult.

Bandwidth is only cheaper in the 1GB+ range.

You also have to remember, bandwidth and client connections only come into play in large scale scenarios where you have to push the client data to the client... but in the previous scenario imagine pushing thousands upon thousands of "I clicked my gun, now die" calculations back and forth while updating each and every player in the field with all of that data.

The scope of such things is immense.
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,188
87
91
madgenius.com
You also have to remember, bandwidth and client connections only come into play in large scale scenarios where you have to push the client data to the client... but in the previous scenario imagine pushing thousands upon thousands of "I clicked my gun, now die" calculations back and forth while updating each and every player in the field with all of that data.

The scope of such things is immense.

No denying that.

I am not software engineer, but if they did OK at it 10 years ago, they should be able to have no issues with it now.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
No denying that.

I am not software engineer, but if they did OK at it 10 years ago, they should be able to have no issues with it now.

Thing is they "cheated" in order to do it "ok" 10 years ago. And even then, a marginal connection to the server caused huge issues. What I'm saying is if you think you're ever going to get the kind of pace that Bad Company 2 or Modern Warfare 2 have out of a MMO, it simply ain't gonna happen.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Sony's success with EQ2 going free might see this happen out the gate with other MMO's, so maybe Planetside 2 will go free from start?
 

Sureshot324

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
3,370
0
71
I'm not even remotely talking about bandwidth.

I'm talking about PROCESSING those connections and trying to update several hundred/thousand client nodes with PRECISE location/timing/action data all at the same time so as to minimize the impact of latency issues caused by client connections, bandwidth constraints and processing time.

There's a reason why MMORPGs work: Because the reaction time in MMORPGs doesn't need to be sub-second precise. In world of whorecrap a couple seconds of lag between one player and another in terms of play experience is meaningless, even in PvP. Try to calculate dozens of bullets hit testing a few dozen people that are continually moving relative to eachother where reaction times need to be in the millisecond range, and it's a recipe for disaster. Planetside was nothing short of remarkable, but man, on the days where lag was king it was really bad.

And yes, bandwidth IS cheap... unless you're a residential consumer.

These are all simple integer calculations and for a modern computer is nothing. Some modern games have even gone as far as simulating the trajectory of every bullet (ARMA 2), meaning every bullet arcs and takes time to reach its target. Even that is nothing because typically a player will only have at most maybe 3-5 bullets in the air at once, so with 100 players there might be a few hundred bullets in the air. So that's a few hundred simple integer calculations every frame to update their trajectory/position.

To put that into perspective, a scene in a modern game can have millions of polygons, each with a texture that has dozens or hundreds of pixels. The reason most FPS games don't support that many players is because if all those players end up in the same area it can cause a lot of slowdowns on the clients, since then your pc has to draw like 50 players at once. Plus, for a typical competitive FPS like battlefield, COD, TF2, etc. there's no point in having that many players. It doesn't make those games more fun, in the same way that having 100 players in a football game wouldn't make it more fun.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
. . . if they did OK at it 10 years ago, they should be able to have no issues with it now.

You have to take into account ten years of programmers getting progressively lazier and lazier. Hardware's substantially more powerful today, why create tight code when you have 6 3Ghz CPUs available?
 

Sentrosi2121

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2004
2,567
2
81
You have to take into account ten years of programmers getting progressively lazier and lazier. Hardware's substantially more powerful today, why create tight code when you have 6 3Ghz CPUs available?
This. Plus software developers looking at the cash cow that is WoW and saying, "Gee, we can pull this off! But instead of elves, we'll call them fairies." Rebandaging the cash cow to see if you can beat the cash cow is the very definition of insanity.

We have a similar thread over with the guys and gals I game with.

What needs to happen is a software developer needs to BELIEVE in the product. At some point Sony truly believed in the Planetside model. But then they shifted focus over to EQ2, and started to lose quality people (SmokeJumper for example). With the changing of the 'guard' the initial focus was lost. Or it was rebandaged by SOE. Use your current consipracy theory. But whatever it was, it lost what made Planetside great.

Sure, there should have been improvements. I would have preferred to have the bases be static for a period of time. Give you a sense of accomplishment. I remember after the first night of playing Planetside, going to the world page, and seeing the bases and continents we fought for tooth and nail all day, shifted from the Red of TR to Blue of the NC. Over a period of 8 hours we lost all those bases. Bases fought over and bled over should have been held for x hours before it was hackable.

The lattice system was nice. Really made for some good SpecOps patrols before committing empire forces to the taking of a continent. Take out the Tech base, and the other side doesn't get Vanguards/whatever the Vanu tank was. Made the game feel more tactical.

But the BFRs. WORST IDEA EVER.
Core Combat. SECOND WORST IDEA EVER.

If they make a PS2, I'll be there ready to fight. I hold no hope of that happening, as I think that Sony sold its rights to Planetside to some Chinese development company.

Anyway, that's my quarterly rant on why Planetside failed. Tune in January 2011 for my next rant.
 

minmaster

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 2006
2,041
3
71
i missed out on this game, but everyone who's played calls it "epic"
i'll definitely keep my eyes on Planetside Next
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
These are all simple integer calculations and for a modern computer is nothing. Some modern games have even gone as far as simulating the trajectory of every bullet (ARMA 2), meaning every bullet arcs and takes time to reach its target. Even that is nothing because typically a player will only have at most maybe 3-5 bullets in the air at once, so with 100 players there might be a few hundred bullets in the air. So that's a few hundred simple integer calculations every frame to update their trajectory/position.

To put that into perspective, a scene in a modern game can have millions of polygons, each with a texture that has dozens or hundreds of pixels. The reason most FPS games don't support that many players is because if all those players end up in the same area it can cause a lot of slowdowns on the clients, since then your pc has to draw like 50 players at once. Plus, for a typical competitive FPS like battlefield, COD, TF2, etc. there's no point in having that many players. It doesn't make those games more fun, in the same way that having 100 players in a football game wouldn't make it more fun.

Wrong. Absolutely nothing in 3d is done with "simple integer calculations". Anyone that has a clue knows that everything in 3d graphics is done minimally in floating point, with emphasis on precision/speed in terms of tradeoffs.

Let's take your assumption and run with it for a minute though.

A "couple hundred" players = 200 player hitboxes.
3-5 bullets each (4 average) * 200 players = 800 bullet hitboxes + 200 player hitboxes + an undefined amount of "terrain" hitboxes.
60 frames per second (being generous) = roughly 16 milliseconds to calculate polygon movement, calculate hit tests, register hits, then update all 200 players and 800 bullets each frame. Hit testing is a very expensive calculation, and while there appears to be only about 1000 items to check (which is very manageable in 16ms), that doesn't take into account hit testing the various terrain and other obstructions that can get in the way.

This is just a very, VERY minimal example that doesn't include dozens of other things that happen behind the scenes as well. Not sure about you, but I can't tell you the last time I've been on a server that was even NEAR 16ms in latency IN ONE DIRECTION. Add in player reactions, movements, new bullets, this, that and the kitchen sink, along with the fact that most players will be averaging roughly 150ms round trip actual latency, and you can see this formula simply won't hold without some very creative optimization.

Polygon counts are far more manageable through LOD, culling and other optimizations. In fact, polygon counts are basically irrelevant in modern gaming, unless you have developers that simply don't know or understand how to optimize for these things *cough*Crytek*cough*. Polygon count simply has absolutely no bearing on the network latency or bandwidth, nor does it have any bearing on server-side processing of the data that needs to be processed.
 
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Mogadon

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
739
0
0
Planetside was fantastic. Nothing like taking on a base when the populations were large on a continent and having a 2/3 hour battle, over one base, with somewhere around 500 - 1000 people taking part.

Every so often I install it again, pay for a month and fire it up to play for a few days, still fun. It's usually after reading a thread like this when i give it a go.
 
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