Why have AMD APUs failed on the market?

[MisterLilBig]

Kaveri is more efficient going by those numbers but it is certainty not using less power.

Well, there is a good power/performance there on the AMD side of things. At same TDP it uses up to 50% more power and it pushes up to 450% more min FPS.
(Unique cases, but hey, how many of those can there be!)

 

[ShintaiDK]

Less than 1% of 100+ million "enthusiasts" users bought a GTX 970.

Your number really sets things in perspective. Even the GTX970 is used 2:1 against Kaveri. If not 5:1.

Not that it wasnt obvious from the sales revenue from AMD.

 

[monstercameron]

Your number really sets things in perspective. Even the GTX970 is used 2:1 against Kaveri. If not 5:1.

Not that it wasnt obvious from the sales revenue from AMD.

wait you believe that amd has sold less than ~1m kaveri apus? somewhere around 200,000 units? ok then?

 

[BSim500]

Bioshock Infinite can run on an Intel HD 3000 iGPU. For 20% of people, that is a problem. For the other 80%, its fine. And that's on a 3 year cadence.

For more than 20% it's a problem since regular 18fps slowdowns are not "fine" (on a 2 year old game) no matter how some with abnormally low standards try and paint that as "playable" (even console gamers bitch when a game starts dipping below 25fps)...

Neither of us have a "proper" source. I just point out that its highly unlikely anyone who isn't part of the 2-3% "super elite pc master race" actually cared to get a dGPU to play the darn game. Any game, actually.

"2-3%". "Probably", "high unlikely". A lot of "feelings" but short on facts again. Hint : Try looking at the various support / discussion forums (and the usual various "what card do I need for x" posts) for all these modern AAA games. It's quite a bit more accurate than simply guessing...

 

[ShintaiDK]

wait you believe that amd has sold less than ~1m kaveri apus? somewhere around 200,000 units? ok then?

We are talking about gaming if you missed the context.

In short, people dont buy APUs to game on them. Not that people really buy APUs to begin with.

 

[NTMBK]

In short, people dont buy APUs to game on them.

Hey, speak for yourself. I get plenty of gaming done on my Haswell tablet.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Hey, speak for yourself. I get plenty of gaming done on my Haswell tablet.

Thats a CPU with IGP

 

[MisterLilBig]

For more than 20% it's a problem since regular 18fps slowdowns are not "fine" (on a 2 year old game) no matter how some with abnormally low standards try and paint that as "playable" (even console gamers bitch when a game starts dipping below 25fps)...

Hard to believe when most gamers grew up playing 24+ FPS games, but hey, its true, 18fps is not exactly good, but its multitudes better than 4fps. Not only is it cheaper, it is way better. Something that fanatics don't like to acknowledge.

"2-3%". "Probably", "high unlikely". A lot of "feelings" but short on facts again. Hint : Try looking at the various support / discussion forums (and the usual various "what card do I need for x" posts) for all these modern AAA games. It's quite a bit more accurate than simply guessing...

And the answers given will reflect what? I'm sure a person asking for what they need for gaming on 'x' resolution will get the same response as to game on 'y', meaning an i7 and the newest NV card. As everyone has shown here. If I want a simple system to play games on and no dGPU, like many would like really, you know, a "PC Console", a "Steam Machine", why would anyone go for an APU that is 2 to 3 times more expensive and worse performing than the competition? Just look at that Brix review, what a joke! And what a price!

In short, people dont buy APUs to game on them. Not that people really buy APUs to begin with.

And the most used GPU's aren't iGPU's...right.

 

[NTMBK]

Thats a CPU with IGP

Same thing

That's kind of missing my point, though- if AMD had managed to keep competitive with Intel and NVidia on perf/W, they could have gone after this sort of low power, thin form factor device, where you absolutely need integrated graphics. A genuinely competitive AMD tablet SKU with perf/W in the realms of the Tegra K1 would be pretty great for gaming on the move (no more Intel drivers, thank god), but they just keep failing to deliver.

 

[Ramses]

Guess "xeon" with igp was inevitable since those models are rebranded 4 cores max desktop midrange i7's or i5's. They find their way in cheap, low performance, desktop like platforms but certified for server usage with very few added server features/benefits.

Cheap being the key word, or cheap-er. the i7-4770-ish ones seem to be available thirty bucks or so cheaper than the regular i7. Man Intel is kicking (our)ass(es) on list prices, I was using wiki as a reference since there's so effing many different SKU's and the original retail prices are still what they are listed for, or higher. Jeez.

 

[Shivansps]

And the most used GPU's aren't iGPU's...right.

Notebooks, people do want and play with IGPs on mobile, on desktop, they generally use them until they can get a "graphics card", until APUs can deliver playable medium settings on 1080p its gona keep that way, and even still its not gona last long, as the next game will probably not run good enoght.

Thats one of the reasons of why APU failed on desktop.

 

[redzo]

AMD's quad APUs are far better than intel's i3's GPUs.

If you take a look at current mobile product market offerings, it is flooded with intel products.

AMD's pure APU products directly compete with intel's crappy CPU's(non i3) plus lower spec dedicated GPUs.

There is no way you can say that a pentium/celeron haswell based + entry level(ultra low performance) dedicated gpu is a better option than a pure quad apu(kaveri) design mobile platform. That pure apu design is easier to cool and definitely less power hungry.
So many possibilities to build a great product based on that. But manufacturers do not care. They do not care because those intels + lowest spec dGPU are dirt cheap for them. Customers fail to notice the disadvantages of this combo: a low performance haswell + dGPU is definitely harder to cool and more power hungry than a amd pure apu platform with same cheap cooling designs available at those price ranges.
Uneducated customers get crewed by choosing a crappy gpu coupled with a dedicated useless 2GB VRAM. Manufacturers are happy cuz it's easier to sell products like that: this products look tastier on the shelf. They are damn easy to sell.

 

[AtenRa]

I specifically mentioned office and internet use. Nowhere did I say Intel was better in GPU performance so your graphs are irrelevant to my claim.

Casual gamers are rare, much rarer than you think. And a lot of them nowadays use their tablet or smartphone for this. Besides that you pay a very small premium for say an Athlon + dGPU compared to an APU. The difference is less than 1 game. However you easily get double the FPS with this setup. So evebn for casual gaming APUs are fail.

Now they have their merit in laptops but again as already mentioned i5 + nv dGPU is better and doesn't cost much more.

You said because of the huge iGPU it consumes more power and it needs a bigger heatsink-fan. = False

You also said that Core i3 is cheaper. = False

Also, if Pentium CPU is adequate for internet and office so does the APUs. The CPU performance of the A8-7600 is more than enough for those jobs and you also get an added faster iGPU with it.

For example,

A8-7600 = $90

Intel Pentium G3420 (Dual Core) = $63

What dGPU will you get to have the same or higher performance than the A8-7600 at $90 ??? Ill save you from searching, NONE.

A 512 iGPU 30W TDP Carrizo will be faster than A8-7600 at 45W TDP both in CPU and iGPU performance. If i was a big OEM/ODM i would invest in that SoC for All in Ones and small thin SFF desktops. The consumer will benefit from PCs like that if they had the choice.

Imagine a FreeSync 21-24" All in One 30W TDP 512 iGPU Quad Core Carrizo that can play almost every game at 900p and have more than enough CPU performance for everything else, heaven

From an OEM/ODM point of view is also heaven,
1: Less complex board due to SoC (no more chipsets) = lower cost both from the board and the lack of chipset.
2: 30W TDP = small HeatSink-Fan = Smaller/Thiner design = cheaper and more elegant.
3: No dGPU = smaller Heatsink-fan + less complex board + cheaper = win win win.
4: FreeSync = added feature = higher margin = more profit = Win Win Win Win

That All in One would be the best All in One both for the OEM/ODM and the Consumer.
For the OEM/ODM cheaper to produce than Intel Broadwell, Added Features like FreeSync and higher iGPU perofrmance at lower/same price.
For the Consumer, added features and higher iGPU performance at lower/equal price than the Intel Broadwell.

Just give the customer the choice

 

[AtenRa]

And this is why meaningless TDP arguments are meaningless.

Mr. TDP, what is the actual power draw of the 45W A8-7600 and the 54W i3? Oh really, so less power requires a smaller heatsink?

Its nice when you use your own data to prove yourself wrong.


Kaveri is more efficient going by those numbers but it is certainty not using less power.

TDP is not Total System Peak power consumption (that is what those numbers in my graphs are ), you need a smaller Heatsink-Fan to cool the 45W TDP Kaveri than the 54W TDP Intel CPU.

Also, Core i3 doesnt consume more energy/power when Gaming simple because the CPU is almost idled due to it waits for the iGPU to finish the job.

 

[Shivansps]

You said because of the huge iGPU it consumes more power and it needs a bigger heatsink-fan. = False

You also said that Core i3 is cheaper. = False

Also, if Pentium CPU is adequate for internet and office so does the APUs. The CPU performance of the A8-7600 is more than enough for those jobs and you also get an added faster iGPU with it.

For example,

A8-7600 = $90

Intel Pentium G3420 (Dual Core) = $63

What dGPU will you get to have the same or higher performance than the A8-7600 at $90 ??? Ill save you from searching, NONE.

A 512 iGPU 30W TDP Carrizo will be faster than A8-7600 at 45W TDP both in CPU and iGPU performance. If i was a big OEM/ODM i would invest in that SoC for All in Ones and small thin SFF desktops. The consumer will benefit from PCs like that if they had the choice.

Imagine a FreeSync 21-24" All in One 30W TDP 512 iGPU Quad Core Carrizo that can play almost every game at 900p and have more than enough CPU performance for everything else, heaven

From an OEM/ODM point of view is also heaven,
1: Less complex board due to SoC (no more chipsets) = lower cost both from the board and the lack of chipset.
2: 30W TDP = small HeatSink-Fan = Smaller/Thiner design = cheaper and more elegant.
3: No dGPU = smaller Heatsink-fan + less complex board + cheaper = win win win.
4: FreeSync = added feature = higher margin = more profit = Win Win Win Win

That All in One would be the best All in One both for the OEM/ODM and the Consumer.
For the OEM/ODM cheaper to produce than Intel Broadwell, Added Features like FreeSync and higher iGPU perofrmance at lower/same price.
For the Consumer, added features and higher iGPU performance at lower/equal price than the Intel Broadwell.

Just give the customer the choice

Common people just dont care for that, i have already said it, if they want the cheaper option, they are going for the huge evil that AMD released to the 3rd world called Sempron 2650, not sure about US sales, but outside US the 2650 sells a lot.

If they want something better that can play a few more games and they can add a dgpu later on, or just because they just want something better than the Sempron, they are going for the G3220, and if someone really want something good they just jump to the I5 and FX8320...
The entire FM2 lineup is behing ignored in desktop.

And lets be honest here, G3220 can play the moba games are most people first want to play rather OK, and if they want to add a dgpu later the G3220 is better than any AM1 and any dual FM2 too that you can get for less or similar prices, the only thing that makes sence is the 7600, but people ignore it too, the "midle" options just dont sell a lot, because the midle options, like an I3, they generally complement it with a dgpu as a cheaper gaming pc. And the 7600 is just not good enoght for doing that without a dgpu.

And i dont see it being much different for a OEM... there are the cheaper options, AM1 or BT-D, the "better" options with G3220, the I3 with dgpus and then they jump directly to the high end sector.

 

[VirtualLarry]

if they want the cheaper option, they are going for the huge evil that AMD released to the 3rd world called Sempron 2650, not sure about US sales, but outside US the 2650 sells a lot.

That honestly surprised me, a bit. The Sempron 2650 AM1 APU, is a 1.4Ghz Kabini, right? Those are SOOOO SLOW. (Speaking from experience.) I mean, they work, sort of, but performance is the pits.

Anyways, there's a Hot Deal on this APU at TigerDirect.com that I posted. $19.99 + ship. Just FYI.

 

[AtenRa]

Common people just dont care for that

100 All in One with HD4400/4600 from $580

 

[sm625]

AMD APUs failed because they didnt bring anything to the market, except integration solely for the sake of integration. The APU is still more expensive than a lesser CPU combined with a discrete GPU.

What AMD really needed to do was reinvent the PC based around their APU. Get rid of the PCIe slots. Get rid of the northbridge. Integrate the SSD controller, put NAND down on the board along with GDDR5, and make their own little PC without all that useless crap you see occupying space on a motherboard. But they just didnt have the resources to do this. They spent a bunch of money on integration and gained literally nothing for it. Not even a fps/watt advantage.

 

[Shivansps]

100 All in One with HD4400/4600 from $580

I dont understand what that means, desktops are not the same as AIOs.

That honestly surprised me, a bit. The Sempron 2650 AM1 APU, is a 1.4Ghz Kabini, right? Those are SOOOO SLOW. (Speaking from experience.) I mean, they work, sort of, but performance is the pits.

Anyways, there's a Hot Deal on this APU at TigerDirect.com that I posted. $19.99 + ship. Just FYI.

Again, outside US, the thing is, people just dont care, if they are looking online or step into a computer shop just looking for the cheaper pc as possible they are already expecting to be kinda slow and not capable of running any games on it.
Also is not random that the only people that complain about being slow are the ones that ask for Windows 7 to be installed instead of Windows 8.1, the OS helps a lot in masking how slow it is.

We tried swapping it for the 3850 for a month since the price difference was very small, but it just did not work, even as you market it as "quad core", it just sells less, probably because some dont think that a "internet/mom,etc" pc needs 4 cores, its contra instuitive i know, but i cant discuss a 45% loss in sales compared to the 2650.

Also there is a lot of comerces that looks for reemplacement pcs and they just get the cheaper ones no matter what, and thats turned to be kinda good because they generally need Windows XP support and/or Serials port for fiscal printers.

 

[AtenRa]

I dont understand what that means, desktops are not the same as AIOs.

Legacy desktop OEM PCs are shifting to All in Ones and SFF.

 

[Sweepr]

I dont understand what that means, desktops are not the same as AIOs.

Strangely for some people they are the same and suddenly very relevant for consumers. It started since Carrizo was announced as a BGA-only part.

 

[Shivansps]

Legacy desktop OEM PCs are shifting to All in Ones and SFF.

Maybe in the US... and while thats the idea, people are starting to realise that AIOs have the big problem of having to trow it away enterely when the mb or screen fails, some others have their old monitor that they want to re-use, etc.

In 2009, i worked for a local OEM and we builded both desktops pcs and notebooks, and i remember the CEO talked to us once saying that desktops pc will be dead in 2 years and that will have to concentrate on notebooks and AIOs... 2015 and desktops are still strong here, with AIOs strugging to gain market, a great visionary.

 

[AtenRa]

Maybe in the US... and while thats the idea, people are starting to realise that AIOs have the big problem of having to trow it away enterely when the mb or screen fails, some others have their old monitor that they want to re-use, etc.

In 2009, i worked for a local OEM and we builded both desktops pcs and notebooks, and i remember the CEO talked to us once saying that desktops pc will be dead in 2 years and that will have to concentrate on notebooks and AIOs... 2015 and desktops are still strong here, with AIOs strugging to gain market, a great visionary.

I said AIOs and SFF (from Ultra to Mini-ITX), and NO I havent ever said that desktop will be dead.

 

[Shivansps]

Strangely for some people they are the same and suddenly very relevant for consumers. It started since Carrizo was announced as a BGA-only part.

If you cant build or upgrade it, the same rules cant apply, they are like notebooks whiout the mobility, it will happen eventually, just slowly. And in no way will happen at the same speed in the rest of the world as in the US.

 

[Shivansps]

I said AIOs and SFF (from Ultra to Mini-ITX), and NO I havent ever said that desktop will be dead.

SFF are a VERY small market right now, and specially on ITX is where FM2 fails big time, just go and check for prices and number of FM2 Itx mbs, why do you think AM1 was mainly targeted at ITX?