Why have AMD APUs failed on the market?

[cbn]

OEMs trying to meet a price point are going to go with the less expensive processor. they don't give a rat's behind about the graphics performance when stocking walmart and staples with $400 boxes. does intel integrated bog down when running multiple video streams? yes. does your average corporate buyer care about that? no. does your average home buyer who just sees a price on a box care about that? no. quit living in the computer-savvy forum bubble.

For something like a niche All-in-one AMD should just offer a discrete GPU.

This way the small number of clients that want the extra graphics are appeased and AMD doesn't end up with a line-up that is too expensive for the average everyday customer.




-Hex big core APU with small iGPU for enthusiasts

-Quad big core APU with small iGPU (harvested from the hexcore APU with small iGPU die) for higher end everyday consumers

-No dual big core APUs (Please AMD get rid of those big core APU dies like Bristol Ridge based on quad core that yield dual core)

-Higher clocked cat core quads (now that AMD dual big cores are gone). Push the cat cores harder on desktop and don't downbin them so severely as it was in the past.

-AMD desktop parts should run happily on a single stick of DDR3 1600 or DDR4 3200

-dGPUs (fabbed at GF) for the very small amount of AMD desktop consumers that want extra graphics horsepower.

-Lower die size = Lower cost, and hopefully this helps to close the large gap in OEM desktop prices we are seeing between Intel and AMD today.

 

[turn_pike]

I've voiced my opinion on AMD's APU in a couple of threads a while back. But let me reiterate:

Formerly I held the opinion that APUs are useless for gamers due to the lack of GPU power and a bad value to non gamers as they pay premium for the iGPU without ever using it. After having used Kaveri A8-7600 for some time I now believe that these APUs are a great value to most gamers.

Let's remember for a moment that most people game using iGPU or at least a very cheap dGPU. These are the kind of GPU power that Kaveri will be competing with. Many gamers today are also unwilling to spend a lot of money upfront to buy games, hence the rise of F2P.

According to most watched streams on twitch.tv and to Steam statistics the most played games in the world are League of Legends, DOTA2, CS:GO, Hearthstone, TF2 or the FM series. Last year in US universities, all I see in dorms is students playing LoL / DOTA2. Well, it turns out that AMD's APUs are the perfect fit for these type of games while Intel's APUs are too weak on the GPU side.

Unfortunately many hardware review sites are having a hard time keeping up with the changing taste of today's gamers. They cater to the more upscale gamers who -can- and are willing to spend hundreds of dollars for their computers. There is an unintentional bias when they review APUs like Kaveri. To test the iGPU they used games like Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, Tomb Raider or even Battlefield 4. It makes Kaveri looks really bad even though a gamer who is considering to buy Kaveri wont be able to afford those newer AAA titles anyways .

What they should have done instead is to test whether you can play Dota2, LoL, CS:GO on an acceptable fps. Games that people actually played, are playing and will be played for years to come. Moreover most gamers who play competitive online games dont care much about AA or being able to have maxed out quality. APUs give you the required fps without having to deal with the cost, the form factor, the hassle of installing, the noise and the heat of discrete GPU.

 

[AtenRa]

I've voiced my opinion on AMD's APU in a couple of threads a while back. But let me reiterate:

Formerly I held the opinion that APUs are useless for gamers due to the lack of GPU power and a bad value to non gamers as they pay premium for the iGPU without ever using it. After having used Kaveri A8-7600 for some time I now believe that these APUs are a great value to most gamers.

Let's remember for a moment that most people game using iGPU or at least a very cheap dGPU. These are the kind of GPU power that Kaveri will be competing with. Many gamers today are also unwilling to spend a lot of money upfront to buy games, hence the rise of F2P.

According to most watched streams on twitch.tv and to Steam statistics the most played games in the world are League of Legends, DOTA2, CS:GO, Hearthstone, TF2 or the FM series. Last year in US universities, all I see in dorms is students playing LoL / DOTA2. Well, it turns out that AMD's APUs are the perfect fit for these type of games while Intel's APUs are too weak on the GPU side.

Unfortunately many hardware review sites are having a hard time keeping up with the changing taste of today's gamers. They cater to the more upscale gamers who -can- and are willing to spend hundreds of dollars for their computers. There is an unintentional bias when they review APUs like Kaveri. To test the iGPU they used games like Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, Tomb Raider or even Battlefield 4. A gamer who can only afford Kaveri cannot afford those newer AAA titles.

What they should have done instead is to test whether you can play Dota2, LoL, CS:GO on an acceptable fps. Games that people actually played, are playing and will be played for years to come. Moreover most gamers who play competitive online games dont care much about AA or being able to have maxed out quality. APUs give you the required fps without having to deal with the cost, the form factor, the hassle of installing, the noise and the heat of discrete GPU.

Almost two year old Richland, at the time there was only a single Core i3 with HD4000 (3225) and it was more expensive than Richland.

 

[Gikaseixas]

Formerly I held the opinion that APUs are useless for gamers due to the lack of GPU power and a bad value to non gamers as they pay premium for the iGPU without ever using it. After having used Kaveri A8-7600 for some time I now believe that these APUs are a great value to most gamers.

Let's remember for a moment that most people game using iGPU or at least a very cheap dGPU. These are the kind of GPU power that Kaveri will be competing with. Many gamers today are also unwilling to spend a lot of money upfront to buy games, hence the rise of F2P.

According to most watched streams on twitch.tv and to Steam statistics the most played games in the world are League of Legends, DOTA2, CS:GO, Hearthstone, TF2 or the FM series. Last year in US universities, all I see in dorms is students playing LoL / DOTA2. Well, it turns out that AMD's APUs are the perfect fit for these type of games while Intel's APUs are too weak on the GPU side.

This a 1000 times

Usually people who discard APU's are people that never used it or high end gamers. I first got a Llano, now sporting a Kaveri chip in my HTPC. I play mostly Dota 2 on and it excels even at 1080P so I urge people to reserve their opinion until they tried it themselves.

 

[Qwertilot]

Oh definitely about the reviews. I was basically having this argument on the 960 thread too That might be a 4k Dota2 card, not that anyone tested it for that!

I'm basically in the target audience for iGPUs in many ways - very much liking small/quiet machines and mostly RPGs/strategy stuff etc.

The problem for them from my perspective right now is Nividia's recent focus on producing some very low power, quiet, efficient cards. Especially the 750ti.

A 750ti set up does have a premium attached of course but it isn't enormous and it does mean that - with care cf settings - I can run basically anything at playable frame rates at 1080. It is nice to play the odd dumb game

Hopefully they (AMD or Intel) will manage to get APUs up to at least that sort of level with HBM. Tough mind, because Pascal is due to push the power efficiency even further.

 

[cbn]

Yep, that appears to be the case going by the very large price difference between the Core based Pentium desktops and the A8-7600 and A10-7800 boxes:

A8-7600: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...page=1&bop=And (New starts @ $429.99 with 6GB RAM and 1TB)

A8-7800: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...bop=And&page=1 (New starts at $469.99 with 8GB and 1TB)

Pentium (Core Series): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...%20&IsNodeId=1 (New starts @ $299.99 for G3240 with 4GB and 1TB)

A8-7600 with 2GB more ram costs $130 more compared to a Pentium G3240.

Here are the Core i3 listings at Newegg to add to the above comparison:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...96%20600014733 (New Core i3-4160 with 4GB 500GB starting at $359.99.)

So that is $70 lower for a Haswell Core i3 prebuilt vs. A8-7600 (granted RAM is 2GB less and the hard drive is half the size though.)

I should also point out that if looking at the rest of the A8-7600 and Haswell Core i3 listings, the Core i3 is on average substantially cheaper (the next most expensive Haswell Core i3 box is http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883266534 --> $399.99 whereas the next most expensive A8-7800 jumps all the way in price to $529.99-->http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G2HZ3147 )

 

[cbn]

I'm basically in the target audience for iGPUs in many ways - very much liking small/quiet machines and mostly RPGs/strategy stuff etc.

The problem for them from my perspective right now is Nividia's recent focus on producing some very low power, quiet, efficient cards. Especially the 750ti.

A 750ti set up does have a premium attached of course but it isn't enormous and it does mean that - with care cf settings - I can run basically anything at playable frame rates at 1080. It is nice to play the odd dumb game

Hopefully they (AMD or Intel) will manage to get APUs up to at least that sort of level with HBM. Tough mind, because Pascal is due to push the power efficiency even further.

There is also this Gt730 64 bit GDDR5 that is pretty affordable at $54.99 AR on Newegg (this has been the stable price for several months) --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814133542

384 Kepler Cores with 64 bit GDDR5 @ 5 Gbps (40 GB/s bandwidth)

P.S. Eventually I expect we will see a small die Maxwell variant (maybe GM108 with 384 Maxwell CUDA cores) also with 64 bit GDDR5.

 

[cbn]

Hopefully AMD decides to increase its presence in low profile cards, because as we can see a Haswell Core i3 prebuilt with GT730 GDDR5 has a very good chance of being cheaper than a pre-built with A8-7600. (see posts #406 and #407 for the price comparison)

And that Core i3/GT730 64 bit GDDR5 is going to be faster in games than a A8-7600.

 

[AtenRa]

Here are the Core i3 listings at Newegg to add to the above comparison:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...96%20600014733 (New Core i3-4160 with 4GB 500GB starting at $359.99.)

So that is $70 lower for a Haswell Core i3 prebuilt vs. A8-7600 (granted RAM is 2GB less and the hard drive is half the size though.)

So you get 2GB more ram, 500GB more HDD and Higher iGPU perf for $70. Seams ok to me.
The Core i3 with the same specs as A8-7600 above is at $400 with Windows 7 Home Premium.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883266534

So we come back to the same thing, for everyday jobs and a light gaming at the same price the A8-7600 is the better product. If you only care for the higher single thread performance and you dont game then you go for the Core i3.

I should also point out that if looking at the rest of the A8-7600 and Haswell Core i3 listings, the Core i3 is on average substantially cheaper (the next most expensive Haswell Core i3 box is http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883266534 --> $399.99 whereas the next most expensive A8-7800 jumps all the way in price to $529.99-->http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G2HZ3147 )

The lenovo ThinkCenter M79 is a professional SFF PC with Windows 7 Professional. I do agree it is overpriced even for that market because there is an ACER with core i3 SFF and Win 7 Pro 65bit for $430 ($499 original price)

I would only recommend that A8-7600 PC for any jobs with OpenCL(Libre Office, Rendering, Photo editing, GPGPU in labs etc), otherwise the Core i3 at that lower price is better for office/single thread work.

 

[AtenRa]

There is also this Gt730 64 bit GDDR5 that is pretty affordable at $54.99 AR on Newegg (this has been the stable price for several months) --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814133542

384 Kepler Cores with 64 bit GDDR5 @ 5 Gbps (40 GB/s bandwidth)

P.S. Eventually I expect we will see a small die Maxwell variant (maybe GM108 with 384 Maxwell CUDA cores) also with 64 bit GDDR5.

This card is not faster than the 512 Core + 2133/2400MHz dual channel Kaveri. Also, the card is only 1GB when Kaveri can been setup with up to 2GB iGPU ram.
If you buy a Core i3 + this card you get at best the same performance as A10-7850K with 2133/2400MHz but with an extra cost, noise, heat etc. Also to note that this setup doesnt support Freesync and Mantle, both are available to Kaveri APUs.

edit: I dont even believe that the Core i3 + 730 1GB DDR5 (64bit memory) will be better than the much cheaper A10-7800 2x 2133MHz.

 

[NTMBK]

There is also this Gt730 64 bit GDDR5 that is pretty affordable at $54.99 AR on Newegg (this has been the stable price for several months) --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814133542

384 Kepler Cores with 64 bit GDDR5 @ 5 Gbps (40 GB/s bandwidth)

P.S. Eventually I expect we will see a small die Maxwell variant (maybe GM108 with 384 Maxwell CUDA cores) also with 64 bit GDDR5.

Oh yuck, that card is absolute garbage. Tiny little noisy as hell fan, and it's just a downclocked Geforce 640- which is not much faster than Haswell integrated graphics to begin with!

 

[AtenRa]

Oh yuck, that card is absolute garbage. Tiny little noisy as hell fan, and it's just a downclocked Geforce 640- which is not much faster than Haswell integrated graphics to begin with!

If i remember correctly, 640 is faster than Haswell HD4600.

 

[NTMBK]

If i remember correctly, 640 is faster than Haswell HD4600.

It is, but not by a massive margin. And Kaveri is then significantly faster than the 4600

 

[cbn]

This card is not faster than the 512 Core + 2133/2400MHz dual channel Kaveri. Also, the card is only 1GB when Kaveri can been setup with up to 2GB iGPU ram.
If you buy a Core i3 + this card you get at best the same performance as A10-7850K with 2133/2400MHz but with an extra cost, noise, heat etc. Also to note that this setup doesnt support Freesync and Mantle, both are available to Kaveri APUs.

edit: I dont even believe that the Core i3 + 730 1GB DDR5 (64bit memory) will be better than the much cheaper A10-7800 2x 2133MHz.

I think Core i3 plus GT 730 GDDR5 is a better compared to A8-7600 (see post # 408) based on the pre-built prices were are seeing.

And definitely Core i3 plus GT 730 GDDR5 is going to be faster than a A8-7600 OEM box with dual channel DDR3 1600.

 

[cbn]

It is, but not by a massive margin. And Kaveri is then significantly faster than the 4600

GT 640: GK 107 (384 Kepler cores @ 900 Mhz) with 128 bit DDR3 (28.8 GB/s bandwidth)

GT 730 GDDR5: GK 208 (384 Kepler cores @ 902 Mhz) with 64 bit GDDR5 (40 GB/s bandwidth)

GTX 650: GK 107 (384 Kepler cores @ 1050 Mhz) with 128 bit GDDR5 (80 GB/s bandwidth)

650 GTX is around the speed of a HD 7750 GDDR5.

So 384 Kepler cores @ 1050 MHz (GK 107) is around the same core speed as 512 GCN at 800 Mhz. (Except the 384 Kepler cores in GT 730 is based on GK208 which has a lower spec than GK107 in some other areas)

 

[ShintaiDK]

There are 2 versions of the GT640. One DDR3, one GDDR5. Also different clocks.

 

[NTMBK]

There are 2 versions of the GT640. One DDR3, one GDDR5. Also different clocks.

There's actually about 5 different versions of the GT640, one of which is actually based on a Fermi chip Low end GPU naming is a complete disaster (from both red and green teams).

 

[frozentundra123456]

Well, if the only game that counts is LOL, then even intel igp is "good enough" to play that. But wait, AMDs apu has better performance, so I will pick that. OK, makes sense. But another 50% better performance is available for very little additional cost with a cheap cpu and a discrete card, but for some reason I dont want that performance. OK, whatever.

 

[cbn]

Well, if the only game that counts is LOL, then even intel igp is "good enough" to play that. But wait, AMDs apu has better performance, so I will pick that. OK, makes sense. But another 50% better performance is available for very little additional cost with a cheap cpu and a discrete card, but for some reason I dont want that performance. OK, whatever.

Main thing is does a person want DIY or Pre-built.

If going pre-built it seems a core i3 plus around $70 discrete card is the match-up to a A8-7600 with dual channel DDR3 1600.

And I've been noticing these Core i3 desktops have been carrying the same strong discounts against the AMD APU OEM desktops since Just prior to the Kaveri launch. See example post from over 1 year ago to see what I talking about --> http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35947650&postcount=746

Using Newegg prices are a comparison for pre-built desktops:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...el%20Core%20i3 (Core i3 starts @ $399)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...8-Series%20APU (A8-6500 APU starts @ $479)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0-Series%20APU (A10-6700 APU starts @ $499)

Using the Current Fry's sale for Pre-builts here is what I am coming up with:

http://www.frys-electronics-ads.com...-PC-with-4th-Gen-Intel-Core-i3-4130-Processor (Core i3 for $348)

http://www.frys-electronics-ads.com...80-UR22-Desktop-PC-with-AMD-A8-6500-Processor (A8-6500 for $448)

Now granted the Core i3 systems come with 4GB RAM vs. 8GB for the AMD systems, but that still a pretty big disparity in pricing IMO.

 

[Yuriman]

Who is buying desktop computers these days? What percent of consumers play LoL / DOTA2? 80%? 20%? 5%? Of those, how many are using integrated vs discrete graphics? Seems important information, and I don't have it, and find it hard to make judgements without the necessary information.

I like the idea of raising the baseline graphics power of desktop computers from a gamer's perspective, as casual games like LoL will begin to look better, but how big is that market? If it's 5%, there's another 95% of the market which would more appreciate the cost cuts of a smaller die and lower TDP. I know AMD is trying to find its niche, but I'd hope its target audience is greater than 5%.

Seems to me AMD might benefit from selling a SFF PS4/XBOne-like PC (with 4 construction cores rather than 8 cat cores) and marketing it as a value "game system / PC hybrid", which is something an average consumer would probably understand and find attractive. Something like this, only with the AMD : Gaming Evolved logo on the side:

For everyone else, there is more value in AMD's graphics than just its raw horsepower, and a 64 stream processor iGPU would be more than sufficient for normal desktop use, while still providing features you get with discrete cards.

 

[Ancalagon44]

You want to know why AMD's APUs have failed in the market? Because they aren't selling them.

Repeat the following steps to see what I mean.
Go to Newegg.com
Go to the All laptops/notebooks section
Select price range - $100 to $500
Select Screen size - 11.6 inch and smaller to 13.4 inch
Select operating system - any kind of windows (7 and 8)
Select processor - any AMD processor that you see in the last

We are coming up on a year after Beema and Mullins were released, but you will not find one in that list. Not one. Hundreds and hundreds of Bay Trails available, but not a single Mullins or Beema.

So how can they possibly succeed when AMD isn't selling them?

 

[NTMBK]

Seems to me AMD might benefit from selling a SFF PS4/XBOne-like PC (with 4 construction cores rather than 8 cat cores) and marketing it as a value "game system / PC hybrid", which is something an average consumer would probably understand and find attractive. Something like this, only with the AMD : Gaming Evolved logo on the side:

What, and compete directly with their two largest customers? Sounds pretty suicidal. Good luck getting the Playstation 5 contract after doing that...

 

[Yuriman]

What, and compete directly with their two largest customers? Sounds pretty suicidal. Good luck getting the Playstation 5 contract after doing that...

AMD is not allowed to sell desktop APUs because they sell console APUs? Sounds like suicide to me.

 

[turn_pike]

Well, if the only game that counts is LOL, then even intel igp is "good enough" to play that. But wait, AMDs apu has better performance, so I will pick that. OK, makes sense. But another 50% better performance is available for very little additional cost with a cheap cpu and a discrete card, but for some reason I dont want that performance. OK, whatever.

Except intel IGPs are not good enough.

These are benchmarks for DOTA2 (and LoL) from Toms at lowest detail and another benchmark from Techspot at highest graphic detail.

When you are getting 30-40 fps in casual scenario (they used tutorial or 4v4) then it is far from good enough. You want to have 60 fps during teamfights which is much more stressful than the scenario they used.

 

[NTMBK]

AMD is not allowed to sell desktop APUs because they sell console APUs? Sounds like suicide to me.

There's a very big difference between selling APUs and selling their own consoles. You were proposing the latter, not the former.