Why I am not a conservative by Moonbeam

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: AmusedOne
I'll try too...

I am for a strong defense department
I am against affirmative action or any "quota" system.
I am for school vouchers. (actually, I'm for abolishing public education)
I am against spending on programs like the NEA
I am for legalizing drugs.
I am against a flag burning amendment.
I think the pledge should go back to it's original form.
I am for teaching all theories of evolution in schools without stupid disclaimer stickers.
I am pro choice in the first two trimesters.
I despise Hillary Clinton and Jerry Falwell with equal ferocity.
I am pro death penalty.

You're obviously fscked-up.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Originally posted by: AmusedOne
I'll try too...

I am for a strong defense department
I am against affirmative action or any "quota" system.
I am for school vouchers. (actually, I'm for abolishing public education)
I am against spending on programs like the NEA
I am for legalizing drugs.
I am against a flag burning amendment.
I think the pledge should go back to it's original form.
I am for teaching all theories of evolution in schools without stupid disclaimer stickers.
I am pro choice in the first two trimesters.
I despise Hillary Clinton and Jerry Falwell with equal ferocity.
I am pro death penalty.

You're obviously fscked-up.

No, you are.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Now you can see that when you look at a Liberal as a Conservative, you're looking at the future. It's how your grand kids are going to think. But what I don't understand is why people can't see that if yesterday's Liberalism is so worthy of conserving, why not get with the times and just be a Liberal. Why wait? It's where the thinking part of humanity is taking you. Get on board.

What if what's newest isn't always best? What if yesterdays liberalism is what's needed, not todays liberalism? If yesterday's liberalism was worth something, and today's liberalism overturns what was worthwhile in that, should we support today's liberalism? You speak as if people were conservatives simply for the sake of conservatism, and liberals the same. What about the people who chose to be liberals or conservatives because they agree with the liberal or conservative views on an issue?

 

[MichaelD]

That's all fine and good. Call it what you want.

As long as I have my:

1. Women's right to an abortion for whatever reason they choose (as long as they are over 18)
2. My Second God-Given Ammedment completely intact as the forefathers wrote it
3. Increased Military Budgets every year that inflation goes up
4. No legalized same sex marriages
5. (God help us) No legalized gay adoption
6. The death penalty (circumstances too broad to discuss here)


Life will be good. Oh and as an addendum (sp?)

6. Cases involving physical inability to work aside, NO damn alimony in ANY of the 50 states.

 

[ThePresence]

Why I am not a conservative by Moonbeam

I think that says alot. You are a liberal by default, because you have reasons not to be a conservative. I think most conservatives are conservatives because they actually believe in the values and viewpoints that most conservatives do, not because they have reasons not to be liberal.

 

[Moonbeam]

I hope everybody caught Dr. Smooth's points.

ThePresence, the One Eared Mongolian Mosquito is an insect I deeply fear. Once bitten, you become a Conservative. It's extinct though, thank God. somebody illegally dumped some old DDT.

Mwilding, yup, but we need clear definitions.

schmedy, I have this horrible attitude that I should not only post for my own enjoyment, but that I should try to leave things better than I found them. I believe that seeing things is really useful, stuff like ditches on the side of the road, limbs hanging in your path, practical stuff. Well one thing I saw was that every time somebody says something about himself personally, half the people jump up and down cheering and half scoff. Now you got half the people ready to buy whatever is the BS flavor of the day, and the other half jumping out of windows because they won't believe you that there's no fire. You get that anyway, but you really get it when people can put you in a box up on a shelf. AND AND AND, the issue isn't about me. What difference does it make if I'm a General or Benedict Arnold with regard to the quality and accuracy of my ideas. NONE ZIP NADA. I could be the most left winged general in history or a fascist bum. Doesn't say anything about whether what I say is true or false. The pretense that we can judge others by superficial externals is just exactly one of those low hanging limbs I like to warn people about and I can do that best by showing people that what they see in me is a product of their own mind, a set of false assumptions and judgments we carry around ready to slap on people to INTITLE us to criticize them. I call this talking to and about yourself when you think you are talking about somebody else. It works best on a blank slate.

So while some of the information is classified, I'll see what I can do:


So when were you in and what branch? (X) Or you are getting ready to join right? (X) Would you give your life for this nation at the drop of a hat? (No. Only at the drop of the right hat. What is right? Indeed!) How do you feel the military should be used? (Carefully.) What amount of the budget for the military is good for the nation? (Insufficient information) Should they get paid more since they are the ones at risk of death for our great nation? (I favor a pay raise.) So you feel that if I have talent and am smart in business that I should give my money away to the people who don't want to work too hard or feel it?s easier to stay on welfare then get that job that would pay no more? (Yes, some, if you earn your livelihood in this nation off the fact that there exists an infrastructure paid for with blood sweat and tears of those who went before you and to which you will now add your contribution like it or not because without it you wouldn?t earn jack sh!t. Otherwise grab a parka and make it yourself on the Ross ice shelf.) And hell why work if you can sit at home and make the same money? (You won't )Why is it my job, or any big business to support those who don't work or don't make as much as me? (see above, with the privilege of living in the USA come responsibilities)I worked hard to get where I am now and have no desire to give away my hard earned salary to those who feel its too hard to stop having children and work that evil 40 hours a week and actually earn money instead of just being handed it. (You work hard because your will wasn't broken as a child, or was broken in a way that made you vow revenge) Do you think that everyone should be given higher education and assistance if they don't want to either study and advance themselves or work hard to get there? Yes, but on the type that focuses on that disinclination to alter it) If so why would anyone work and not take the free ride of this gravy train you speak of? (Because we are all the same. People who have or reacquire a sense of pride, or much better yet a real sense of self worth don?t want to leach off others) Why should I bear the burden of responsibility to support my family when you can go to work and give me assistance? (because you admire me and want to be like me)Why make the people with honor, pride, and discipline in their lives do all the work just to help out the lazy? (To the more conscious always falls the greatest burdens. And why not? Who is better equipped to accomplish them) People need to learn to be responsible for their actions, if you want something work hard for it to get there. (What people need to learn and the presence of qualified people who can teach them are two different things)God forbid join the military, protect our nation and learn a skill which may help you be a contributing member of society too. (fact the military has been and will continue to be a just such a door for millions)I am not here to argue that I am right, I am just wondering how you think, (Now you know a bit)and why you think that way9we don't have time).

On a side note about a fellow liberal raised Californian, John Walker Lindh, what do you think if anything should be done to him Moonbeam? (Something should be done )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amused:

I believe that you and I agree on much and differ on less. Were we differ, I think, is that your application of your precepts is absolutistic and includes a restricted range of considerations. I take the position that there is pragmatism in understanding issues not only in terms of principles, but also in the context within which they arise, a sort of Principled Relativism.

Dave:

I am for a strong defense department 9defense, not offense)
I am against affirmative action or any "quota" system. (one might not be the other)
I am against school vouchers. (yea, it seems like a bad idea but if you got cable you know competition has its point.)
I am against spending on programs like the NEA? NEA? Near Earth Asteroid?
I am against legalizing drugs except for maybe pot (you people almost have me convinced)(Listen to us; we are right)
I am against a flag burning amendment. (Oh man yes, never ever thought of burning it but the minute I can't, look out)
I think the pledge should go back to it's original form.
I am for teaching all theories of evolution/creationism in schools without stupid disclaimer stickers.(1st in SCI class 2nd in Comedy 1A)
I am pro choice in the first trimester(Yea)
I despise Hillary Clinton and Jerry Falwell with equal ferocity. (I like them both; both passionate Americans)
I am pro death penalty. (Against murder so have to be against this kind to)

HotChic

If I have to be completely rational I'll never post.

The tricky answer to your questions are that everything you said applied 300 years ago so why did we create America. Imagine the absurd for a moment. Imagine that the average person is gaining in his and her total understanding of the meaning of existence and life. The gain in understanding will want to express itself as the Liberalism of the day.

 

[UltraQuiet]

To expand:

NEA == National Endowment for the Arts
To say I despise two people I have never met is silly. I despise their politics.

 

[Moonbeam]

Left out Zimmervolt:

I am a true Capitalist. (partial)I believe in a pure free market economy without regulation. (nope, look at the food shortages in southern Africa. Sudden market intro makes food cost too little when farmers are selling and too much when they are starving as pointed out by Capitalist org NO 1, the world Bank)I believe that legislation of morality is ludicrous, that only such actions as are detrimental to society should be illegal. (as long as it's not you determining what's what)I believe in a culture of personal honor and personal responsibility.(Great does it include choir boys) I believe that no-one should be mandated to help anyone else. (as long as they live in the jungle and never use a public telephone, go to public school, or learn a language or benefit at all from the creative culture of others))I believe that if people work hard, they should keep the results of their labor. I believe that if people work hard, they should keep the results of their labor. Now, see previous. You owe big time) I believe that the less fortunate should work to better themselves instead of mooching off of the successful people. (Just as soon as you can teach them how)

and sygyzy

i'm not conducting a bean counter here, counting threats. the nature of these threats (and excesses) are in fact part of the innate differences between the two.(would love to hear this fleshed out. Don't get it)

has there ever been a 'liberal revolution' that did not, in the end, exceed its own limits of change and not produce degeneracy ?
remember, these revolutionary forces had to overcome the same conservative elements you consider to be the essence of wrong. (I don't know. Has there. I'm thinking about Jesus and Christianity. They're still trying to catch up to him.)

yet, the French revolution replaced one despot with another. same in Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, china, and every eastern
European country. if the agitators in France, America (remember president McKinley was assassinated by an anarchist in
1902), great Britain, Greece, and few other spots had not been defeated, there would have been more failures at greater
cost to contend with today.(Sounds more like a failure of insufficient revolution to me. The Conservatives won.)

even liberal reform programs that fight the good fight on social issues have exceeded their original noble goals and slid into
horrible excesses that have created problems worse than the original evil.(whose fault and why, failure of idea or implementation?)

one major example: Roosevelt?s new deal. it gave birth to the welfare industry whose righteousness we are still struggling to overcome.(Or realize as the case may be)

 

[PistachioByAzul]

From my soul searching and vision questing as a "Republican in remission" as BabyBaliDoc put it, from being concious of the conservatives around me, I've found "conservatism" to be sort of an overcompensated way of dealing with the basic human insecurities we all face.

This was harsh but interesting:
The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: EngineNr9
From my soul searching and vision questing as a "Republican in remission" as BabyBaliDoc put it, from being concious of the conservatives around me, I've found "conservatism" to be sort of an overcompensated way of dealing with the basic human insecurities we all face.

This was harsh but interesting:
The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values.

Many excuses have been made for taking away individual freedoms. This is but another lame excuse in a long line of lame excuses.

Many of the self-proclaimed "liberals" on this board are nothing of the sort. They are actually elitist, nanny-state authoritarians who think the masses must be controled, freedom be damned.

Granted, conservatives are a threat to their fair share of freedoms, but at least they don't claim to be "liberal" while at the same time seeking to limit freedoms.

 

[sandorski]

Moon: At first I was going to agree with you. However, it got me to thinking. All through Europe, Canada, and even the US, liberals are becoming more fiscally conservative. So I'll contend that the liberalizing of conservatives is occuring concurrently with the conservatizing of liberals. Both sides of the political spectrum constantly come up with new ideas to be applied to issues of the day. Some of these ideas are just stupid others solve issues quite nicely. As solutions prove themselves, both sides adopt them into their political bent.

 

[glenn1]

Good test. My score:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 6.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -2.67


Almost identical to Milton Friedman's position on the grid. Not bad company i daresay

 

[tm37]

Well here we go playing the labling game once again.

As the political cycle spins round and round typically the uninformed exit out of the woodwork to challenge the ideals of logic and common sense. Again we shall focus mearly on the negitives that may or may not be nailed to a particular party and we shall also be sure to ridicule those who shall disagree with what we believe to be RIGHT. Because if i'm right and you disagree then that makes you..... well I shouldn't need to spell it out. I DONOT vote down the party line I rarely listen to the LEADERS of a party when voting for a person I look at their track record, what they tell me they intend to do and what they claim to believe.

I KNOW what I want in my life I and I also know the best way to get it is not to wait for it to be handed to me. Want to know the biggest failure of social politics look no further than the new deal which insured that we would stay recessed UNtil a war took us out.

and sinse we have taking to proclaiming core beliefs I shall partake. Remeber If we don't agree I can look at your side however I will also point out why I beleive what I do.

I am for freedom and responsibity
People should give give the right to choose their own destiny with out the hand of government ting them down or steering them away. However with this freedom comes responsibility. You can do as you want BUT you and you alone shall suffer the consicences of thoose actions. Do as you wish but don't expect or DEMAND that everyone ACCEPT your choices as right. You have a right to live with a same sex partner, and I have the right to not like it. You have the right to produce smut and I have the right to not purchase it.

I am for free SPEECH
True free speech where I can say what I want about what I believe, not some scewed Bill Mahar free speech where when no one no longer want to fund his speech then he feel his right has been taken away. Bill you can still talk but corperate americia isn't paying for the microphone. My free speech is just as free as your free speech.

I am against a flag burning ammendment
I am for however the full prosicution of thoose who ignite ANYTHING in a public place without a fire permit. If I can't launch my fireworks then you can't light ANY PIECE of cloth without having the fire marshall give the go ahead. And if you meet the required criteria for open flame the fire marshall WILL give you a Permit regardless of your political motives.

I beleive that a strong national defence is the key to a strong country
Make love sounds nice but if the other guy has a gun the lovers die pretty quick. I am for closing of the borders to stop the flow of illegal immigration and I am for giving our men and women in the armed forces the means to raise a family. I beleive that sometime the best defence is offense and that knowing the rational of your enemies is worth about as much as know the make and model of the bullet lodged in your chest. I believe that we need a STRONG intelligence gather network around the world and any country that supports the killing of ANY AMERICAN just because they are american should feel the full rath of our military.

I believe people should be held accountible for their choices
There are so many people that want me to feel their pain it makes me sick. I have my own pain and I don't expect you to take it. I try to minimize thoose pain giving action to insure the lease possible amount of pain for me and I don't need your pain lumped into it. YOU and YOU alone should forced to deal with your actions. If someone else WANTS to help they can but forcing americans to pay for the mistakes and misjudgements of the few is just UNamerican.

I believe the federal government powers should be few and well defined
Just as our fore fathers did. How many of you who hide behind the constitution have actually read the entire document? I always hear liberals screaming about some seperation of church and state that doesn't exist yet they fail to read

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

What this says is that If the constitution doesn't give the federal government the power the government doesn't have that power.

I believe that a woman has the right to choose and pay for that choice
While I may be morally opposed to obortion I am against the governement making that choice for me( I have made it already) or anyone one else. The government should be NEUTRAL on this issue and should not give one dollar of funding to support this action.

I am against teaching of evolution or creation in ANY REQUIRED CLASS IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL
The state is not the one who should be teaching the many theories of how we arrive hear walking on two feet UNLESS the parents consent to that teaching. SO often a teacher will try to pass a set of values on to thoose that they are teaching and those values should NEVER go against what the parent has been teaching at home in the matters of faith. For some faith is all they have and if they want to attempt to instill that samee faith the school shouldn't tell johnny that there is or isn't heaven.

I am for school vouchers and for creating accountability within our public education system
Public schools are failing for too many reasons to go into here (I could spend the next week). But I am for letting parents take some of the money that would have been earmarked for a public school and putting it towards the education that the feel best suits their child regardless of that schools religous or political leanings. At the same time I think that public schools should be given the ability to remove thoose teacher who can't teach or don't know the subjects they are supposed to be teaching. Teaching our children is a hard job and schools need to make learning harder as well. No one has ever benifited in the long term from lazyness and ignorance however the number of people who have failed and looked at that failure and learned is huge.

I believe that the people who work and spend are the backbone of this economy not the government
People are the econmy and I believe in a free market to exchange goods and services and the goverments role is only to ensure that transactions are made in good faith. If I want to sell a product and you want to buy it the governemnt only role should be that the product does what I say it does and that you use real money.

I believe that no two people are the same and some people have better talents than others.
I would bet that there is not one person on this board that was born with the gifts that A-Rod has when it comes to playing baseball. People are born with different 'gifts' and put through entirely different enviorments. the fact is some people have a better knack for learning and are 'smarter' than the rest of us. We are all not the same we posess different tastes, values, and abilities. If you try to please everyone then you will never please anyone. What i enjoy is not of your concern as long as it doen't cause you harm if you are forced to be around me. If my actions donot effect your person or propety where you have zero control over it then you can tell me what to do but if you can easily avoid me that should be what you do If I offend you. We all have the rights and we should respect each other. Laws should be made at the will of the people and not by the will of judges. The government should serve the people and people should serve it in return.


This is alot longer than I intended it to be and you can draw your own conclusions on what my political leaning are and try to lump me into some group if you please BUT remember I am an individual ewith my own set of values developed over a lifetime of experence, just like you.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

AmusedOne seems to know people better than they know themselves. You just layed out your perception, but that's all it is.

a set of false assumptions and judgments we carry around ready to slap on people to INTITLE us to criticize them.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

What is an individual anyway? One flower is made of the whole cosmos

 

[Daedalus]

Johal, you live! Where is your evil twin?

 

[Moonbeam]

Daedalus, I think you must mean jhu. He was here yesterday but is scarce. They expect him to pass tests to become a doctor. Stupid huh. Also I think he spends most any free time he has trying to find sf. We never see Johal cause I don't think he's supposed to post. Not even positive he got past the old BBS. What a memory. GEEZ Anyway I'm just as happy he doesn't post. I don't think I could take the kind of lavish praise he'd likely lay on me. He or she, I could never be sure.

Engine, your Bali quote reminds me of principled relativism, constant examination of fluid events in light of fundamental principles.

Amused, help me out:

"Many excuses have been made for taking away individual freedoms. (This) is but another lame excuse in a long line of lame excuses.(To what specifically does (this) refer to.

Many of the self-proclaimed "liberals" on this board are nothing of the sort. They are actually elitist, nanny-state authoritarians who think the masses must be controled, freedom be damned. ( So what happens when the masses want to take away their own freedoms, are you going to be a nanny and stop them, or appeal to the nanny state Supreme court that it's not a democracy. I think that the Bill of Rights are a concretization of a type of mentality, a way of seeing, an experiential wisdom, a sohphisticated spiritual and intellectual development present in the minds of many at the founding and that is that mentality, not that years cope of ideas to fit a particular situation that should be thought of as sacred or essential or eternal) The principals of government laid down were a product, a crystlaization on the intangable into words to fit a time. Their genius was in their generality and thus their universality. Times change and they do things that was never envisioned they could do. They are interpreted by the courts. They are enshrined, but it is the mentality, the consciousness from which they sprang, that is the real wellspring, the source, the fount without which all turns to dust. A donkey laden with the best books remains a donkey because the living constitution within from whence those old men drew their wisdom is not there. Obedience to law, to principle, without a living understanding of inner content and life is a ritual, a tradition, a sterile exersize of imitation. I think that's why Jesus came. Anyway, you ate, in my opinion, attatached to the container and not the content. You are rigid in the extreme and that's why nobody wants to fly with you. )



Granted, conservatives are a threat to their fair share of freedoms, but at least they don't claim to be "liberal" while at the same time seeking to limit freedoms.

sandorski:

Please don't think next time. I need the support. I think what you are describing is the fact that the Conservatives are a bunch of tight assed self centered children who refuse to acknowledge their debt to great nature, the Indians who preserved the bounty of our country for thousands of years, and the work of men for centuries to develope the culture, laws and form of government that makes possible for them to earn ald live so well. You know how pigs at the trough can be. No table manners. They don't want to pay taxes but they don't mind contribution to polititions who promise to keep the slop flowing by keeping taxes down. And since the polititians are at the head of the trough, hey why not. Meanwhile they stuff themselves with all types of moral judgments about the deserving and the undeserving, responsibility and work ethic and reward, as if they and not the circumstance in which they find themselves, but for whichthey wish to pay not a single niclke to support, wasn't the real reason for their success. They are like termites in the capital building. One day it will all fall down.

'Politics is the art of the possible' with the conservatives making it as impossible as they can.

glenn1, gandhi could take milton freedman any day.

 

[Sachmho]

moonbeam is basically right on this post

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Sachmho
moonbeam is basically right on this post

Well, that settles it then. Thank god Sachmho finally let us know what to think about moonbeam's ramblings.

 

[Bluefront]

Jeez...this is way past "ramblings". I wonder what set Moonie off this time. I was beginning to enjoy the quiet, thought Moonie got a job or something, started paying taxes. You pay taxes=you start being conservative. Happens to everyone who can balance a check-book, not living in public housing, pays utility bills, has a measured IQ over 75.

I suppose that explains poor Moonie's political affiliation.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Moonbeam, from a few of your comments, it sounds like you have this discussion with "conservative" family members, are you having any luck changing them?

 

[Moonbeam]

Pliable, I've had a great deal of luck changing them. They've written me out of their wills. They claim that if they wanted their money going to the poor they'd have given it away themselves. But now they think they know why I cry when one of them dies.

 

[Red Dawn]

Bluefront

Jeez...this is way past "ramblings". I wonder what set Moonie off this time. I was beginning to enjoy the quiet, thought Moonie got a job or something

Whether I agree with him or not I alwyas enjoy Moonies posts and the posts that follow from those who can't deal with such a free thinker. On the other hand, I can't say your posts bother me Bluefront because I can't remember any posts that you made that were worth reading.

 

[Moonbeam]

Bluefront, would you like me to hold your shoes? Looks like it's time. LOL

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Liberals love everybody.

Ask Barbara McKinney, or better yet her flaming liberal father, if they love everybody. Make sure you ask them about Jews, J-E-W-S.