Why I'm joining the GOP!

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Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: BBond

WTFU, it was the Republican Party that declared liberals the enemy. Remember Bush's father spitting the word "liberal" during the 1992 campaign? It's the Republican strategy. Divide and conquer. But when it's turned on you, you protest.

Hypocrites.

You cannot realistically be that daft and still manage to tie your own shoes and post on this forum.

The world is not black or white, right or wrong, left or right. Not everyone who doesn't kiss your ass at every opportunity is automatically a Republican, automatically a Bush-supporter, automatically your enemy. If you don't understand the concept of "shades of grey," then you are the one who's outdated, who's hurting America, who's inherently racist, who's prejudiced and intolerant.

You are an undesirable relic who brings absolutely nothing to the table but hate, under guise of self-righteousness. Hopefully, 'your party' will not follow in your ill-fated footsteps, or they will become just as irrelevant.

Pal, you can't bullsh!t me. I know who my enemy is.

Everybody?


:laugh:
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

You cannot realistically be that daft and still manage to tie your own shoes and post on this forum.

The world is not black or white, right or wrong, left or right. Not everyone who doesn't kiss your ass at every opportunity is automatically a Republican, automatically a Bush-supporter, automatically your enemy. If you don't understand the concept of "shades of grey," then you are the one who's outdated, who's hurting America, who's inherently racist, who's prejudiced and intolerant.

You are an undesirable relic who brings absolutely nothing to the table but hate, under guise of self-righteousness. Hopefully, 'your party' will not follow in your ill-fated footsteps, or they will become just as irrelevant.
Pal, you can't bullsh!t me. I know who my enemy is.
Anyone and everyone who does not agree to and conform to you meglomaniacal views and opinions?

I'm not your enemy, but you can pretend as such, if it helps you cope.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
LOL I dont like to group people... to me both parties are essential pwnd by big biz as evidenced by the lobbists offices that line Washington DC around the Capital, the revolving door to fat cats once they get out of "service", and thier massive donations.

Mainly we need to get government out of our lives, but it seems rather impossible when everyone wants it to be thier arbitrator.

That's one of those wonderful phrases everyone says but no one believes, just like "we need balanced budgets" or "we need politicians who will look out for the good of the entire nation". Few problems arise these days which don't have all parties looking to the gov't for a solution.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Try this one

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEFT AND RIGHT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The more I think about it, the more I believe that the difference can be summarized in one word. Democracy. Liberals believe in it. Conservatives don't. Many conservatives say as much. The question is why this fundamental difference, and what does it say about the real underlying difference between left and right.

I believe at bottom what we are dealing with is a fundamental conservative belief in social hierarchy. In fact, it appears to me that this fundamental belief goes beyond the philosophical into the realm of anthropology. In fact, without getting into a great deal of detail here -- I talk about it at length at my website -- it gets down a basic requirement of civilization built on human labor without the assistance of machines. Simply put, a privileged elite in such civilizations emerges simply because there is inadequate surplus production to support a more equial distribution among society as a whole. The conservative world-view is very simply a throw-back to a world of nobles and serfs.

In such a world, the government is made up of and exists to serve the interests of the elite. And indeed, that was the purpose and function of government for 6000 years until the end of the eighteenth century. Interestingly, with the rise of industrialization came the rise of modern notions of democracy, human rights and eventually the interests of labor. It brought about a revolution in the very concept of the nature and purpose of government. Whereas in the ancient and medieval world the government served the elite, today the government exists to serve the interests of all of the people.

Obviously, a government that serves the interests of the people ought to be controlled by them. And indeed, the roots of liberal, social democratic and even socialist philosophy are found in this very revolution in thinking. One of the more famous philosophers of this new vision of government and democracy was Thomas Jefferson.

Indeed, I have seen no better formulation of the modern theory of democracy than that contained within the Declaration of Independence. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and Happiness."

In other words, the people of a nation can set their government up any way they want to, and can empower it to do anything they want it do. The only limitation on the form or power of the government is that set by the "consent of the governed" -- which would include minorities within a society. In other words, the only real limitation on the power and function of government.is the political process itself. Ideologies that perceive grossly limited "legitimate functions of government" have simply failed to understand the fundamental premise of democracy. The people can empower their government any way they want to. Who else besides the people who live in a country ought to decide what its government can and can't do. That is a question liberatarians have a hard time answering.

This perhaps explains a lack of strong ideology, particularly among liberals. Liberals are inevitably pragmatic. We look to our government -- that we at least theoretically control -- to solve problems we can't solve as individuals. We do not perceive any particular "evil" or "tyranny" inherent in this -- though such tyranny is certainly posssible. Where the conservative sees "big government tyranny" in such things as Social Security and the Environmental Protection Agency, we see beneficial and benevolent uses of the power of the state. We see exactly the kinds of things government ought to do more of. It is the old fashioned uses of government -- prison, torture, executions, domestic surveillance, and of course war -- we'd like to see less of.

But those traditional functions of government are precisely the functions conservatives have no problem with. What was the medieval equivalent of the Social Security Administration? When did the Plantagenet monarchs of medieval England create anything that remotely resembled the National Labor Relations Board. In those days, a labor organizer was more likely to find himself dancing at the end of a rope. Because government in those days, employing the uses of government approved by conservatives, did little or nothing to advance the interests of regular people.

This new philosophy of government has become so well established in people's minds, no one would seriously suggest that we return to days of government as the arm of the elite. Now of course, many on the left claim -- and they are frequently correct -- that this is exactly what government continues to do. But there is a difference. In the old days, everyone understood that as the primary purpose of the government. Today, such oligarchies must dissemble about their true nature. They must at least pretend to be democratic. The fact is, that the modern view of the purpose of goverment makes popular control of the government the ultimate outcome, unless elites intervene to stop it.

This is where modern conservative ideology comes in. Notice that the conservative believes in hierarchy. He believes in social classes, and in the perogatives of wealth and privilege. He believes this in a world where the dominant political philosophy favors equality and democracy. Furthermore, that philosophy has created an interesting opportunity for the conservative, namely "social mobility". Persons of low birth can, theoretically, rise up through the heirarchy to become members of the elite. So he is not quite prepared to return to the days of legal class distinctions. He is content to accept de facto social classes, which of course is what our capitalists are.

Actually, the conservative does a neat conceptual trick. He privatizes privilege and class tyranny. Speaking the language of "liberty", and accepting the reality of democracy, he simply seeks shrink the realm of the legitimate power of democratic government to the point where it barely exists. According to the conservative, the only thing a democratic government can legitimately do is enforce his property and contract rights. Sure, the people may establish representative democracies, but those governments can't do anything that actually benefits more than a small segment of society.

Thus, we hear the conservative decry public tyranny -- read that "big government". What he calls "tyranny" is in fact efforts of popularly elected government to reign in the private tyranny found on his shop floor. In fact, the conservative isn't concerned about "tyranny" at all. He simply wants to shrink the sphere of public tyranny, and move it to "the private sector".

By now, you should begin to understand those really entertaining contradictions of conservative ideology. The hate "big government", but they clearly are talking about government restrictions on their power to pollute and exploit. The recognize no limitation on the power of government to protect their interests. The use the language of "liberty" but their methods inevitably reek of coercion. The support the "military solution" every time. Instead of throwing money at social problems, they throw prison at them. And of course, the "free market" itself is a ruthless jungle -- Hobbes' "war of all against all" -- where the economically powerful, thanks to government created and enforced rights, can use "market forces" to compel you to work cheap. There is little "liberty" to the conservative conception of liberty, except the liberty of the rich to throw their economic weight around.

So the difference between left and right comes down to a difference between hierarchy and equality and between oligarchy and democracy. The liberal left sees democratic government as a useful tool to be used for policies "as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness". The right sees democratic government as a threat to the power and privilege of wealthy elites, who increasingly exercise their tyranny in the private sector. Once you understand these distinctions, the contradictions of the right are fairly easy to attack, and legitimacy of social democratic reforms and intitiatives are relatively easy to defend.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
See the 2nd line of my sig. Enjoy the right-wing lies.
Ah... but the "truth" you are losing with is a lie unto itself.
John O'Neill? Is that you?
Uhh... no. Socialism is quite possibly the worst of all political lies. It preaches love while practicing hate. It preaches freedom while practicing oppression. As the American public has (for the most part) already been made aware of this lie years and years ago, the true policies of the uber-left are quite transparent.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Zebo, the only difference between the right and left in America is that the right are fascists while the left are communists. Neither believes in democracy, just power. Democracy in American politics today is a smokescreen at best.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Zebo
LOL I dont like to group people... to me both parties are essential pwnd by big biz as evidenced by the lobbists offices that line Washington DC around the Capital, the revolving door to fat cats once they get out of "service", and thier massive donations.

Mainly we need to get government out of our lives, but it seems rather impossible when everyone wants it to be thier arbitrator.

That's one of those wonderful phrases everyone says but no one believes, just like "we need balanced budgets" or "we need politicians who will look out for the good of the entire nation". Few problems arise these days which don't have all parties looking to the gov't for a solution.

Libertarian Party FTW!

 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Try this one

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEFT AND RIGHT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the difference can be summarized in one word. Democracy. Liberals believe in it. Conservatives don't.

If liberals believe in democracy, why have they brought legal challenges to the various state laws passed via ballot referendum outlawing gay marriage? Haven't the people already spoken? And why were things like affirmative action and legal abortion brought about via the courts and not the legislatures?

Of course, the larger point is that democracy is a pretty word and all that, but as another poster used to say, democracy is also two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner; i.e., it has its limits.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Zebo
LOL I dont like to group people... to me both parties are essential pwnd by big biz as evidenced by the lobbists offices that line Washington DC around the Capital, the revolving door to fat cats once they get out of "service", and thier massive donations.

Mainly we need to get government out of our lives, but it seems rather impossible when everyone wants it to be thier arbitrator.

That's one of those wonderful phrases everyone says but no one believes, just like "we need balanced budgets" or "we need politicians who will look out for the good of the entire nation". Few problems arise these days which don't have all parties looking to the gov't for a solution.

Libertarian Party FTW!


Hey, I self-identify mostly as a libertarian, but how many votes do they ever get? The sad reality is, most people do want the government to hold their proverbial hand.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Zebo
Try this one

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEFT AND RIGHT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the difference can be summarized in one word. Democracy. Liberals believe in it. Conservatives don't.

If liberals believe in democracy, why have they brought legal challenges to the various state laws passed via ballot referendum outlawing gay marriage? Haven't the people already spoken? And why were things like affirmative action and legal abortion brought about via the courts and not the legislatures?

Of course, the larger point is that democracy is a pretty word and all that, but as another poster used to say, democracy is also two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner; i.e., it has its limits.

You answered your own question. They do beleive in democracy which has limits which is the constiitution. These cases they bring forth are brought on consitutional grounds which superceeds and thing short of a demcratic const amendment.. Why do you think Bush was floating the possibility of such an amendment?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Zebo, the only difference between the right and left in America is that the right are fascists while the left are communists. Neither believes in democracy, just power. Democracy in American politics today is a smokescreen at best.

It's amazing how Republicans can find fault with all parties only when they're the party in power.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Vic
Zebo, the only difference between the right and left in America is that the right are fascists while the left are communists. Neither believes in democracy, just power. Democracy in American politics today is a smokescreen at best.

It's amazing how Republicans can find fault with all parties only when they're the party in power.

Vic, you're a Republican? I never see you at the meetings! :laugh:



(maybe if you ignore him, he'll go away)
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Vic
Zebo, the only difference between the right and left in America is that the right are fascists while the left are communists. Neither believes in democracy, just power. Democracy in American politics today is a smokescreen at best.

It's amazing how Republicans can find fault with all parties only when they're the party in power.

Vic, you're a Republican? I never see you at the meetings! :laugh:

Well, don't forget, it's a vast right-wing conspiracy at work, so you probably just missed him in the hall!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Zebo, the only difference between the right and left in America is that the right are fascists while the left are communists. Neither believes in democracy, just power. Democracy in American politics today is a smokescreen at best.

too extreme Vic...

Where are the left calling for an abolition of land ownership as communist manifesto dictates? In fact the lefts FHA has in fact broadened land ownership.

Where are the left calling for an end to private enterprise as communist manifesto dictates??.. Just the opposite the lefts SBA has broadened business opportnity for millions of budding entrepreneurs...many fortunes have been made. (Guess who cut SBA last year)

Where's America's gulag? Oh never mind...

The rights a little harder to argue against them being fascists.



 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
kerry did not represent the left as a whole and had a sh1t policy of the war.

Like I said nothing left but the hardcore dead enders propping up a corrupt regime.

bush's lies are coming back at him faster and faster. just another lame duck until the americans take care of this next nixon.

shame we couldn't have bitchslapped reagan out of office too.

we will make sure to provide the corrupt traitors with no mercy this time...

fascist sympathizers be gone! We have no use for you in a free democratic society.

America doesent need your next civil war you all are gunning for nor do we need to become a third world cesspool.

The south shall not rise again nor shall funamentalists have their say, our forefathers came here to escape you feudalist/totalitarian wingnuts

-not be harassed and our democracy subverted every few generation later.

Blah, blah, blah . . . When is your revolution ever going to get here?!? It always seems to be tomorrow. And good luck making the 'corrupt traitors' pay with no guns - you can't storm the halls of power with just protest signs.


No need for guns, bush and co are digging their own political grave.

Just up to the people to clean up the trash once the bag of neoconservatism is tied up properly.

Yes yes we have heard this the past 4 years.

The result is a re-elected president and more control over the house and senate.

See you in '09 with your same tired out rhetoric.

LMAO. You are such a clown. You need to change your avatar, really. That is all you have is we won we won. A long faced uber bore almost beat Bush. The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs. The house and senate might be another story but that remains to be seen. Keep riding the wave of Kool Aid, you are going to look awful red come 08'. Bookmark this post PLEASE, I know I have.

 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Vic
Zebo, the only difference between the right and left in America is that the right are fascists while the left are communists. Neither believes in democracy, just power. Democracy in American politics today is a smokescreen at best.

It's amazing how Republicans can find fault with all parties only when they're the party in power.

Vic, you're a Republican? I never see you at the meetings! :laugh:

Well, don't forget, it's a vast right-wing conspiracy at work, so you probably just missed him in the hall!

:beer: Good point.

Also, the blinders, constant bleating, and mandatory Limbaugh piped through the speaks also makes things difficult.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
kerry did not represent the left as a whole and had a sh1t policy of the war.

Like I said nothing left but the hardcore dead enders propping up a corrupt regime.

bush's lies are coming back at him faster and faster. just another lame duck until the americans take care of this next nixon.

shame we couldn't have bitchslapped reagan out of office too.

we will make sure to provide the corrupt traitors with no mercy this time...

fascist sympathizers be gone! We have no use for you in a free democratic society.

America doesent need your next civil war you all are gunning for nor do we need to become a third world cesspool.

The south shall not rise again nor shall funamentalists have their say, our forefathers came here to escape you feudalist/totalitarian wingnuts

-not be harassed and our democracy subverted every few generation later.

Blah, blah, blah . . . When is your revolution ever going to get here?!? It always seems to be tomorrow. And good luck making the 'corrupt traitors' pay with no guns - you can't storm the halls of power with just protest signs.


No need for guns, bush and co are digging their own political grave.

Just up to the people to clean up the trash once the bag of neoconservatism is tied up properly.

Yes yes we have heard this the past 4 years.

The result is a re-elected president and more control over the house and senate.

See you in '09 with your same tired out rhetoric.

LMAO. You are such a clown. You need to change your avatar, really. That is all you have is we won we won. A long faced uber bore almost beat Bush. The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs. The house and senate might be another story but that remains to be seen. Keep riding the wave of Kool Aid, you are going to look awful red come 08'. Bookmark this post PLEASE, I know I have.

Which is more than you have right now, must be rough.

Will do and like Steeplerot we will point and laugh.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs

How much you wanna bet?

Jeb in a landslide... He's got the hispanic vote wrapped up with his wife and he's about 50x more personable than his brother.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs

How much you wanna bet?

Jeb in a landslide... He's got the hispanic vote wrapped up with his wife and he's about 50x more personable than his brother.

I personally don't put much stock into another southerner getting elected president in '08.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
kerry did not represent the left as a whole and had a sh1t policy of the war.

Like I said nothing left but the hardcore dead enders propping up a corrupt regime.

bush's lies are coming back at him faster and faster. just another lame duck until the americans take care of this next nixon.

shame we couldn't have bitchslapped reagan out of office too.

we will make sure to provide the corrupt traitors with no mercy this time...

fascist sympathizers be gone! We have no use for you in a free democratic society.

America doesent need your next civil war you all are gunning for nor do we need to become a third world cesspool.

The south shall not rise again nor shall funamentalists have their say, our forefathers came here to escape you feudalist/totalitarian wingnuts

-not be harassed and our democracy subverted every few generation later.

Blah, blah, blah . . . When is your revolution ever going to get here?!? It always seems to be tomorrow. And good luck making the 'corrupt traitors' pay with no guns - you can't storm the halls of power with just protest signs.


No need for guns, bush and co are digging their own political grave.

Just up to the people to clean up the trash once the bag of neoconservatism is tied up properly.

Yes yes we have heard this the past 4 years.

The result is a re-elected president and more control over the house and senate.

See you in '09 with your same tired out rhetoric.

LMAO. You are such a clown. You need to change your avatar, really. That is all you have is we won we won. A long faced uber bore almost beat Bush. The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs. The house and senate might be another story but that remains to be seen. Keep riding the wave of Kool Aid, you are going to look awful red come 08'. Bookmark this post PLEASE, I know I have.

The left said Bush was dead in 04.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Zebo
The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs

How much you wanna bet?

Jeb in a landslide... He's got the hispanic vote wrapped up with his wife and he's about 50x more personable than his brother.

I personally don't put much stock into another southerner getting elected president in '08.

Jebs a blue-blood from Maine... carpet bagger.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Zebo
The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs

How much you wanna bet?

Jeb in a landslide... He's got the hispanic vote wrapped up with his wife and he's about 50x more personable than his brother.

I personally don't put much stock into another southerner getting elected president in '08.

Jebs a blue-blood from Maine... carpet bagger.

I think that Jeb's 'Terry Schaivo' pandering killed his appeal.

 

frankie38

Senior member
Nov 23, 2004
677
0
0
I feel your pain.....I think I might toss in the towel too and go Republican.

Nah. What fun would that be.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I personally don't put much stock into another southerner getting elected president in '08.

How many southerners have we had in the presidency since WWII?

This is the denial us republicans just love to watch in the left.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Zebo
The White House is democrat in 2008 no matter who runs

How much you wanna bet?

Jeb in a landslide... He's got the hispanic vote wrapped up with his wife and he's about 50x more personable than his brother.

I personally don't put much stock into another southerner getting elected president in '08.

Jebs a blue-blood from Maine... carpet bagger.

I think that Jeb's 'Terry Schaivo' pandering killed his appeal.

Who else they got? More poinently who the Dems got that can beat him? Dean anit no Bill Clinton.. And his wife is rough around the edges too.
 
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