why is a decent MMO impossible to find?

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Newbian
Well the events in EQ really depended on the server you were playing since some had great ones with their gm's and others never had any.

yeah, reading about cool EQ events always pissed me off because my server never had *any*

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Newbian
Well the events in EQ really depended on the server you were playing since some had great ones with their gm's and others never had any.

yeah, reading about cool EQ events always pissed me off because my server never had *any*

I always felt like that too...

We had random small events though, like a gnome giving always gems if you solve his riddles, an evening level 1 streaking run through that zone that turns deathly evil at night, or all pets being turned giant on Halloween.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: Fanatical Meat
I was reading this while I did't like WAR at all (I thought the same about DAoC, souless, no feeling of love from developers)
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-b...thread&threadid=102384
It made me think why is it so hard for a game company to accept the fact that they will not beat WOW numbers but still do quite well with fewer subscribers? Also why is every MMO $15 per month why not $10 or $8.50?
All I am looking for is a game that has PVE and PVP content, make it zones for each. Allow some loot from players but not everything, like original EQ one item.
GM events that involve large groups of people
Voip built in like EQ2
Big world that evolves.
Thanks for reading my rant.

Play Eve.

Its 15 a month, with 2 expansions a year, both free.

Has PVE and PVP content. Zones for PVP is everywhere, but mostly in Null Security Space. And when you die, you lose everything most of the time.

There are pretty cool events from time to time, but nothing HUGE. The GM's and dev team is pretty awesome though.

Eve Voice is built in.

Players define how the world evolves, and the Universe is Huge.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yeah eve really intrigues me but I am stuck on the can't leave the ship aspect. I know this is a whine/long rant I am really wondering if anyone else feels the same. Why is it so tough to make a decent mmo that has some risk and depth but is worth paying 15 per month?

 

[gizbug]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Aion is coming out tomorrow and looks like it could be a pretty sweet MMO.

Game looks like the same old "grind fest" to me from the video's I've seen.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

My point again why do all games have gathering that involved standing around bush, tree, mushroom, trapn ect pushing a button and waiting ten seconds for success or failure? Why not have an option of pushing the button or somw simple mini game to determine success?

 

[Zensal]

Originally posted by: Arglebargle
There's a thing amongst woodwind and horn players called 'home instrument bias'. Basically, whatever instrument you start on (flute, clarinet, saxophone, trumpet, etc) becomes the 'natural' way, colours your thinking about playing. Other instruments' variations are more likely to feel like errors or problems.

I think that probably applies to lots of situations, and especially MMOs. Not to say you can't get over it, but just that it probably exists and colors your thoughts.

It certainly seemed evident in the discussions of Bethesda's Oblivion, where people who started out on Morrowind or Daggerfall tended to not like it. But the Daggerfall starters thought Morrowind was a wimp as well. And people who'd started out on Oblivion tended to like it more.

Because every game company wants to be the WoW heavy in the field, they are no longer satisfied with the previous successful levels of, say, 100k subscribers. When it becomes possible to develop and run MMOs for reasonable sums, there should be a lot more niche MMOs that cater to a particular style, and then we'll see the delivery and support of decent MMOs for more varied tastes.

I totally know what you're talking about with the bias thing. I played Planetside during it's heyday and nothing has ever felt the same since. 150 vs 150 vs 100 PVP only.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Beev
Part of the problem is people remember features from games like UO (full loot, etc) as being FAR better than they actually were. Or they're elitist and feel like since they played 10 years ago that they "deserve" an MMO catered to them.

UO's full loot system worked extremely well because they had an extremely successful player driven economy(more or less). To date they still had the best player run economy and crafting system. PvP was better than most as well.

Not that UO didnt have problems but its systems worked pretty damn good pre Trammel/Fulicia.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: Fanatical Meat
Yeah eve really intrigues me but I am stuck on the can't leave the ship aspect. I know this is a whine/long rant I am really wondering if anyone else feels the same. Why is it so tough to make a decent mmo that has some risk and depth but is worth paying 15 per month?

Why would you want to leave the ship in space?

If you mean in stations, Dominion is coming out around December and it has the ability to walk around stations and visit Corp offices and Race bars.

 

[MStele]

I have a Love/Hate relationship with Eve. On one hand, the leveling system is very average joe compatible as you get to level in real time with the only need to login being to switch training skills and earn enough money to buy new skills. On the other hand, the leveling system is very average joe compatible, and since you level in real time there is literally no way you can ever catch up to the older players in terms of skillpoints unless they quit. Never. Also, since the majority of low sec players have been playing for a long time, pvp is a gankfest unless you either join one of the large corporations or have been playing long enough to hold your own, which can take a long time.

That being said, if you have a high tolerance for getting waxed and are patient, then Eve can be a great experience. Also, there is a level of smarts you need to survive, as its easy to find yourself falling into player set traps (and die) if your not aware of what your doing.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Fanatical Meat
My point again why do all games have gathering that involved standing around bush, tree, mushroom, trapn ect pushing a button and waiting ten seconds for success or failure? Why not have an option of pushing the button or somw simple mini game to determine success?

...uh what? The gathering time in WOW is 1.5 seconds. You also can't fail if you have the appropriate skill level to actually loot the node.

Also, I don't want MORE mini-games in my MMO, I want LESS. If I wanted mini-games, I'd buy a Wii.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: Fanatical Meat
I was reading this while I did't like WAR at all (I thought the same about DAoC, souless, no feeling of love from developers)
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-b...thread&threadid=102384
It made me think why is it so hard for a game company to accept the fact that they will not beat WOW numbers but still do quite well with fewer subscribers? Also why is every MMO $15 per month why not $10 or $8.50?
All I am looking for is a game that has PVE and PVP content, make it zones for each. Allow some loot from players but not everything, like original EQ one item.
GM events that involve large groups of people
Voip built in like EQ2
Big world that evolves.
Thanks for reading my rant.

Play Eve.

Its 15 a month, with 2 expansions a year, both free.

Has PVE and PVP content. Zones for PVP is everywhere, but mostly in Null Security Space. And when you die, you lose everything most of the time.

There are pretty cool events from time to time, but nothing HUGE. The GM's and dev team is pretty awesome though.

Eve Voice is built in.

Players define how the world evolves, and the Universe is Huge.

thats because there's nothing in but a few gas clouds, meteor belts or a planet that you can't do anything with.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: tenshodo13

Originally posted by: Fanatical Meat
I was reading this while I did't like WAR at all (I thought the same about DAoC, souless, no feeling of love from developers)
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-b...thread&threadid=102384
It made me think why is it so hard for a game company to accept the fact that they will not beat WOW numbers but still do quite well with fewer subscribers? Also why is every MMO $15 per month why not $10 or $8.50?
All I am looking for is a game that has PVE and PVP content, make it zones for each. Allow some loot from players but not everything, like original EQ one item.
GM events that involve large groups of people
Voip built in like EQ2
Big world that evolves.
Thanks for reading my rant.

Play Eve.

Its 15 a month, with 2 expansions a year, both free.

Has PVE and PVP content. Zones for PVP is everywhere, but mostly in Null Security Space. And when you die, you lose everything most of the time.

There are pretty cool events from time to time, but nothing HUGE. The GM's and dev team is pretty awesome though.

Eve Voice is built in.

Players define how the world evolves, and the Universe is Huge.

thats because there's nothing in but a few gas clouds, meteor belts or a planet that you can't do anything with.

There are so many things to do in Eve, that even if they don't add anyting else (Which they will, and often) I won't be able to do 1/4 of them in the next 3 years.

Honestly, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. You can do things with all of the things you posted as well, and not just one thing but multiple things. Maybe you played the game for a week or so, but your comment reeks of ignorance.

 

[Modelworks]

I think what is need to make MMO better is one of two things. Either they improve enemy AI a ton or they start paying people to be the enemy on the other end.
If I am told in a game to go kill 4 of the same creatures then it gets really boring, not because I have to go kill 4 of the same creature, but because I know that the fight will be the same every time. Find creature, who almost always is standing at the same spot , sometimes looking like a stick figure glued in place. Kill creature , spamming it with the same tactic, because it always attacks the same way. Return for reward. If the creature I was sent to kill actually did things like a real creature would I wouldn't mind it. Let it be interacting with other creatures nearby. If it is a camp of orcs then let them be cooking dinner, talking to each other, fighting, something besides standing in a spawn spot. If I attack something then it needs to be just as creative as I am in trying to kill it. Not just stand in one spot while I attack . Let it cast a spell randomly that it only cast once in a hundred times. Maybe that creature knew something the others didn't ?


If I kill something carrying a sword it better have a sword on it when I loot the corpse. If I am attacking something like a cow and a wolf wanders by the wolf should come to watch like a real wolf would. It may not join the fight, but it should investigate what the noise is. It shouldn't run over and start attacking me while I am fighting as a real wolf wouldn't do that.

The problem with MMO is that the worlds are filled with NPC that are cookie cutter creations. Same scripted responses and actions. If I am playing a game for hours and hours each week then I don't want to see the same guy , standing in the same spot, doing the same thing, every single time I enter an area. You might as well put up a picture with icons to click and save development time.

The other problem with MMO is the mentality that it should be like a single player game in that everyone gets to experience the same content. Sorry that just ruins it for everyone. If there is a boss monster and someone kills it that should be it, no more boss to kill again. People want immersion and a game with a story they can get into, but at the same time they want everyone to be able to kill the same monster over and over. Warhammer ruined it for me when they said that cities would be reset. That kills the immersion. If players want something back they should have to take it. If a monster dies then let it be gone and move something else in place of it. So you killed the boss monster in his big castle. Well, you didn't keep enough of a player presence there, they all left because there was nothing to kill, so the monsters from another part of the game decided to make it home.

What an MMO needs is to stop thinking that the players will be the ones that make the content come alive. They need to create worlds that function without the player then drop the player into it.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I think what is need to make MMO better is one of two things. Either they improve enemy AI a ton or they start paying people to be the enemy on the other end.
If I am told in a game to go kill 4 of the same creatures then it gets really boring, not because I have to go kill 4 of the same creature, but because I know that the fight will be the same every time. Find creature, who almost always is standing at the same spot , sometimes looking like a stick figure glued in place. Kill creature , spamming it with the same tactic, because it always attacks the same way. Return for reward. If the creature I was sent to kill actually did things like a real creature would I wouldn't mind it. Let it be interacting with other creatures nearby. If it is a camp of orcs then let them be cooking dinner, talking to each other, fighting, something besides standing in a spawn spot. If I attack something then it needs to be just as creative as I am in trying to kill it. Not just stand in one spot while I attack . Let it cast a spell randomly that it only cast once in a hundred times. Maybe that creature knew something the others didn't ?


If I kill something carrying a sword it better have a sword on it when I loot the corpse. If I am attacking something like a cow and a wolf wanders by the wolf should come to watch like a real wolf would. It may not join the fight, but it should investigate what the noise is. It shouldn't run over and start attacking me while I am fighting as a real wolf wouldn't do that.

The problem with MMO is that the worlds are filled with NPC that are cookie cutter creations. Same scripted responses and actions. If I am playing a game for hours and hours each week then I don't want to see the same guy , standing in the same spot, doing the same thing, every single time I enter an area. You might as well put up a picture with icons to click and save development time.

The other problem with MMO is the mentality that it should be like a single player game in that everyone gets to experience the same content. Sorry that just ruins it for everyone. If there is a boss monster and someone kills it that should be it, no more boss to kill again. People want immersion and a game with a story they can get into, but at the same time they want everyone to be able to kill the same monster over and over. Warhammer ruined it for me when they said that cities would be reset. That kills the immersion. If players want something back they should have to take it. If a monster dies then let it be gone and move something else in place of it. So you killed the boss monster in his big castle. Well, you didn't keep enough of a player presence there, they all left because there was nothing to kill, so the monsters from another part of the game decided to make it home.

What an MMO needs is to stop thinking that the players will be the ones that make the content come alive. They need to create worlds that function without the player then drop the player into it.

No.

MMOs didn't become uber-popular until WOW took that tired, horrible old concept from UO and EQ and threw it in the trash can. There is a reason that WOW is immensely popular, and that is because it got rid of many of the draconian principles from past MMOs that simply weren't fun.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: pontifex

thats because there's nothing in but a few gas clouds, meteor belts or a planet that you can't do anything with.

There are so many things to do in Eve, that even if they don't add anyting else (Which they will, and often) I won't be able to do 1/4 of them in the next 3 years.

Honestly, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. You can do things with all of the things you posted as well, and not just one thing but multiple things. Maybe you played the game for a week or so, but your comment reeks of ignorance.

He bolded one part and made a completely valid point of it. Trying to talk about how massive the universe is when it's 99% empty space isn't impresseive. You might make valid points too, but the points you bring up as a counter point to his comments are completely irrelevant to what he is saying. Going off on how ignorant he must be while looking like you completely missed his point isn't impressive either. What there is to do and what the universe is made of are two different topics.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

What an MMO needs is to stop thinking that the players will be the ones that make the content come alive. They need to create worlds that function without the player then drop the player into it.

No.

MMOs didn't become uber-popular until WOW took that tired, horrible old concept from UO and EQ and threw it in the trash can. There is a reason that WOW is immensely popular, and that is because it got rid of many of the draconian principles from past MMOs that simply weren't fun.

I think his last point could make for an immensely successful game. However, I don't think trying to take WoW and applying all his comments would be remotely successful.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

What an MMO needs is to stop thinking that the players will be the ones that make the content come alive. They need to create worlds that function without the player then drop the player into it.

No.

MMOs didn't become uber-popular until WOW took that tired, horrible old concept from UO and EQ and threw it in the trash can. There is a reason that WOW is immensely popular, and that is because it got rid of many of the draconian principles from past MMOs that simply weren't fun.

I think his last point could make for an immensely successful game. However, I don't think trying to take WoW and applying all his comments would be remotely successful.

No, it wouldn't. What would end up happening is that the elite, crazy raiding guilds who play 80+ hours a week would down the boss, and then no one else would get to see that content. Ever. Not only is that a huge bummer for 99% of the playing community, it would also be a gigantic waste for the developer to sink all this time and money into creating content that is only seen by a minuscule fraction of their player base once. There is a reason why WOW is immensely popular and the other MMOs aren't: Blizzard ditched that terrible design philosophy of "only people who can play like its a second job get to see the content".

Every player can see all the content in WOW without having to devote their life to it. This model has been extremely successful for Blizzard, and it has been a big hit with the players.

Why anyone would want to go back to the horrible days of UO or EQ is beyond me...the deceitful rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, I guess. UO, EQ and other "serious" MMOs are still available for those who pine for the "ye olde days". The vast majority of the gaming community has spoken however, and the WOW model is the way to go. Progress is moving forward, not backwards.

 

[pathos]

It certainly seemed evident in the discussions of Bethesda's Oblivion, where people who started out on Morrowind or Daggerfall tended to not like it. But the Daggerfall starters thought Morrowind was a wimp as well. And people who'd started out on Oblivion tended to like it more.

hey, hey now.

Arena was the shit. Daggerfall on blew nuts

edit - and yes, I am kidding

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: pontifex

thats because there's nothing in but a few gas clouds, meteor belts or a planet that you can't do anything with.

There are so many things to do in Eve, that even if they don't add anyting else (Which they will, and often) I won't be able to do 1/4 of them in the next 3 years.

Honestly, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. You can do things with all of the things you posted as well, and not just one thing but multiple things. Maybe you played the game for a week or so, but your comment reeks of ignorance.

He bolded one part and made a completely valid point of it. Trying to talk about how massive the universe is when it's 99% empty space isn't impresseive. You might make valid points too, but the points you bring up as a counter point to his comments are completely irrelevant to what he is saying. Going off on how ignorant he must be while looking like you completely missed his point isn't impressive either. What there is to do and what the universe is made of are two different topics.

I think you should read the statements again. You may see something you didn't in your first go around.

EDIT: Also, his point was completely invalid, because what he said was false. Maybe I didn't make that point clear. It is a big universe, but it is far from being just planets, gas clouds, and asteroid belts "that you can't do anything with" as pontifex stated. There are so many things in the universe, that I won't even bother trying to list them.

I am not trying to convert anyone, but I can't stand people making blind statements without knowing what they are talking about. This seems to extend to you as well. But you have already shown your intellegence to me, so I don't need to worry about your opinions in the future.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: pontifex

thats because there's nothing in but a few gas clouds, meteor belts or a planet that you can't do anything with.

There are so many things to do in Eve, that even if they don't add anyting else (Which they will, and often) I won't be able to do 1/4 of them in the next 3 years.

Honestly, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. You can do things with all of the things you posted as well, and not just one thing but multiple things. Maybe you played the game for a week or so, but your comment reeks of ignorance.

He bolded one part and made a completely valid point of it. Trying to talk about how massive the universe is when it's 99% empty space isn't impresseive. You might make valid points too, but the points you bring up as a counter point to his comments are completely irrelevant to what he is saying. Going off on how ignorant he must be while looking like you completely missed his point isn't impressive either. What there is to do and what the universe is made of are two different topics.

I think you should read the statements again. You may see something you didn't in your first go around.

EDIT: Also, his point was completely invalid, because what he said was false. Maybe I didn't make that point clear. It is a big universe, but it is far from being just planets, gas clouds, and asteroid belts "that you can't do anything with" as pontifex stated. There are so many things in the universe, that I won't even bother trying to list them.

I am not trying to convert anyone, but I can't stand people making blind statements without knowing what they are talking about. This seems to extend to you as well. But you have already shown your intellegence to me, so I don't need to worry about your opinions in the future.

The fact still remains 99% of the game is just empty space expanding the game universe just involves dumping some uninteractive orbs and cookie cutter space stations into a new cube of empty space. He was mostly refering to the planets when he said you couldn't do anything with them. Elite probably has the most massive universe in any game, but you don't see people talking about it like it's such a great thing because creating massive areas of space isn't impressive.

I'm not saying it's a bad game or there's nothing to do with anything in it. It's just it's largeness is unimpressive compared to something like marrowind or any other game that takes actual effort to create an area.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

why is a decent MMO impossible to find?

Because of all the brainless twits who played WoW. I ripped that game for how utterly mundane and formulaic it was. But still the cud-chewers flocked to it by the millions with just the handful of voices warning people what they were bringing upon themselves by selling out so cheap.

And now we have a long future of ZERO decent MMOs to look forward to thanks to their stupidity.

All I can say is stfu and reap the whirlwind, bitches.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

why is a decent MMO impossible to find?

Because of all the brainless twits who played WoW. I ripped that game for how utterly mundane and formulaic it was. But still the cud-chewers flocked to it by the millions with just the handful of voices warning people what they were bringing upon themselves by selling out so cheap.

And now we have a long future of ZERO decent MMOs to look forward to thanks to their stupidity.

All I can say is stfu and reap the whirlwind, b*****s.

NERDRAGE ON THE INTERNETS OVER A GAME!

:laugh:

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: Martimus

Originally posted by: pontifex

thats because there's nothing in but a few gas clouds, meteor belts or a planet that you can't do anything with.

There are so many things to do in Eve, that even if they don't add anyting else (Which they will, and often) I won't be able to do 1/4 of them in the next 3 years.

Honestly, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. You can do things with all of the things you posted as well, and not just one thing but multiple things. Maybe you played the game for a week or so, but your comment reeks of ignorance.

He bolded one part and made a completely valid point of it. Trying to talk about how massive the universe is when it's 99% empty space isn't impresseive. You might make valid points too, but the points you bring up as a counter point to his comments are completely irrelevant to what he is saying. Going off on how ignorant he must be while looking like you completely missed his point isn't impressive either. What there is to do and what the universe is made of are two different topics.

I think you should read the statements again. You may see something you didn't in your first go around.

EDIT: Also, his point was completely invalid, because what he said was false. Maybe I didn't make that point clear. It is a big universe, but it is far from being just planets, gas clouds, and asteroid belts "that you can't do anything with" as pontifex stated. There are so many things in the universe, that I won't even bother trying to list them.

I am not trying to convert anyone, but I can't stand people making blind statements without knowing what they are talking about. This seems to extend to you as well. But you have already shown your intellegence to me, so I don't need to worry about your opinions in the future.

still completely missing my point...but you're an obvious EVE fanboy, the kind that think's they're superior to other MMO players because you play a "smart" game and therefore think you're "smart" also, so I don't expect anything from you except pure blind love for the game. you'll deny everything negative anyone says about the game despite anything else.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

What an MMO needs is to stop thinking that the players will be the ones that make the content come alive. They need to create worlds that function without the player then drop the player into it.

No.

MMOs didn't become uber-popular until WOW took that tired, horrible old concept from UO and EQ and threw it in the trash can. There is a reason that WOW is immensely popular, and that is because it got rid of many of the draconian principles from past MMOs that simply weren't fun.

I think his last point could make for an immensely successful game. However, I don't think trying to take WoW and applying all his comments would be remotely successful.

No, it wouldn't. What would end up happening is that the elite, crazy raiding guilds who play 80+ hours a week would down the boss, and then no one else would get to see that content. Ever. Not only is that a huge bummer for 99% of the playing community, it would also be a gigantic waste for the developer to sink all this time and money into creating content that is only seen by a minuscule fraction of their player base once. There is a reason why WOW is immensely popular and the other MMOs aren't: Blizzard ditched that terrible design philosophy of "only people who can play like its a second job get to see the content".

Every player can see all the content in WOW without having to devote their life to it. This model has been extremely successful for Blizzard, and it has been a big hit with the players.

Why anyone would want to go back to the horrible days of UO or EQ is beyond me...the deceitful rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, I guess. UO, EQ and other "serious" MMOs are still available for those who pine for the "ye olde days". The vast majority of the gaming community has spoken however, and the WOW model is the way to go. Progress is moving forward, not backwards.

I was just saying the last thing he said could be very successful. A persistant game world that functioned on it's own with players dumped into it would be extremely awesome; not the whole you kill a boss once and you can't fight it anymore idea. Bosses would have to be both extremely difficult and bland. I was already agreeing with you on the hardcore wow boss concept being a terrible idea.