why is free trade so bad?

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
honest question, I'm hoping someone can educate my ignorance.

what's so bad about free trade deals? save the 5 years I spent in PA (where I lived in a college town nestled amongst the amish country), I've never really spent time in a heavy manufacturing state... why are these free trade deals like nafta and the proposal with columbia so bad that the democratic candidates seem to be falling over each other trying to denounce them? is there a realistic chance that repealing them would restore the midwest manufacturing belt, or are the problems with manufacturing in the US unrelated to free trade?
 

pinktank

Senior member
Feb 1, 2005
482
0
76
they will further the economic gap between classes, not that democrats really care but everyone needs votes
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
0
Protectionism is the worst trait of the Democratic party, unfortunately both candidates possess it. Free trade in general is good, but the cost is the loss of some blue collar jobs which inevitably leads to some politicians pandering to those workers by speaking against free trade. Fortunately that pandering only serves to slow down the removal of trade barriers, rather than build news ones.

But if you really want to learn about the advantages of free trade I suggest you read works of David Ricardo. Armchair economists here are not a means to an education.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
These questions are far more complex than any Democrat or Republican would have you believe. Right now I'm of the opinion that free trade is generally good between economically comparable parties, but when you introduce large disparities in labor costs, labor laws, resources, etc., it can be very harmful.
 

pinktank

Senior member
Feb 1, 2005
482
0
76
Free trade is towards the capitalist side of the economy that relies on the growth of money, usually in the hands of the owners and the already rich. I believe the man has the right to read on both ends. I would advise karl marx but that might be a little heavier than the introduction you want. Here is noam chomsky with a little easier of a read http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featchomsky_63.htm , he has more on it if you search noam chomsky and free trade
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,721
1
0
Good for the CEO, possibly better for consumers, and worse for the (formerly) workin' man.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Instead of posting the answer as I see it, I'll say more about how I came to a view, and you can see how you view it.

Think about the standard of living - the wealth - of the US, compared to the majority of mankind who lives in terrible poverty. China, India, Mexico, and so on.

Now ask why we are so much wealthier. There will be a long list of important reasons, but it'll help you to lay out the groundwork for the effect of globalization.

A history of being free from invasion with the protection of oceans? The benefits of a slave class for the first couple hundred years? A wealth of natural resources? A strong educational system? Economic imperialism which led to many other nations shipping their raw resources to us for us to use in our products? A stable political system? A strong economic system? Controlling much of the financial markets? Keep going, and see what your list has.

Then take a note of the current world status. How is the US doing at preserving its advantaged that give it much higher wealth? Is its military might still used as broadly and ruthlessly for control, for putting in puppet dictators to serve ou needs? Not really. Our advantage in advanced skills? Other nations are now graduating far more Ph.D's, more scientists, than we are. Our financial strength? Squandered on our debt from Reagan on. Our advantage in manufacturing infrastructure? You know the answer there.

Ask what would happen if you could snap your fingers and broadly implement globalization, how it tends to work now. Competition decreases income. This is why workers would work for barely enough to eat before labor reforms; if you did not accept the low wage, you starved, and the key to higher wages was the right to collevtive bargaining, decreasing the competition between workers. By the same token, from the other side, capitalist businesses make the most when they have monopolies, while in commoditized markets - look at food or generic PC components today, for example - profit margins can be around 2%. What globalization does is to increase the competition for labor, but not only that, it increases the competition with people who can work for far lower wages, because they don't have our nation's standard of living, our currency. This has the effect of plummeting wages for the US workers, at best, and displacing them much of the time.

But doesn't that also hurt the US owners? Well, not exactly. Yes, for some who aren't too flexible, but for those to whom a dollar of ownership is a dollar of ownership, they can simply be the ones profiting from those suddenly lower labor costs, at least in the short term while our nation still has its wealth, ready to blow on cheap goods - which lasts until we've blown that wealth, and are suddenly faced with being a lot more like China, as far as the workers, while the owners have put all that wealth into their pockets.

It's bad for society to suddenly end up having spend its wealth, lost its infrastructure, harmed its currency, its credit worthiness, skyrocketed its debt, and so on.

One analogy I use is that you are doing ok, in your house, and a poor family moves in next door who you have much more than. At first, that can work for you, as you pay them to mow your yard, to clean your home, with a small expenditure. But what happens when you are paying them so much to give you so many services - massages, personal chef, dance shows to entertain you - that your wealth is being transferred to them? Where will that get you? Broke, and them with a lot better standard of living than you.

That's sort of what the US is doing with globalization - it's recklessly doing it, instead of doing it in any sensible manner.

It'd be great to have a sense of the injustice that the poor family above faces, and to want them to prosper, with access to education and so on - a win-win as they are closer to your situation economically, as they produce more. That's analogous to the US not sending its wealth to China as they develop and increase their productivity. But being reckless will hurt you, and that's what we're doing. Every expert I hear says China has us over a barrel they own so much of our debt - and that's just one nation, and the trends are terrible.

Not only are there risks of when the other nations stop loaning us money and buying our debt, but how can anything else happen than a disaster if the situation isn't changed? When the crash starts, whoever gets out early will do better than those who wait, creating a stampede - and how long can responsible governments keep putting money in to prop up the US economy, when they lose so much to do so? Only for so long, and then they'll start to get out, and I suspect it'll avalanche when it starts.

How does globalization work for American workers? That's an interesting question. They do get some benefit from the cheaper goods. It seems to me that there is a 'right way' to do it.

The bottom line is trying to help the poor nations rise to our wealth, rather than lower our nation to theirs. To the very wealthy, that's not such a priority - they function in terms of the percent of the society's assets they own, and it doesn't matter that much whether they increase their share with the rest of society doing better or worse; impoverishing the average American is the best way, perhaps, for them to be able to buy up assets. But it matters a lot to the American workers which way it's done.

This is why it's such a concern to see the bottom 80% get none of the increase in weath of our nation after inflation the last 25 years, while the top has skyrocketed.

I think if you look at when a society advances the most for its public economically, you will find that it's not in the periods in which the most wealthy secured their position and increased the concentration of wealth at the top, but rather when those assets were more equally distributed and available to fuel the economic system with incentives for a lot of people. Look around the world, do the nations with the most corrupt roluers and oligarchies grow a lot, or do the societies with less concentration of wealth?

Admittedly, one segment of society benefits when it can exploit another - as we did with slavery and immigrants. That's like your hiring the poor family next door to build you a new patio. But that's not the situation we're seeing now. The US is greatly harming its economic standing for the benefit of the few most wealthy, who are squandering our nation's well-being, in no small part to undo the progress in our own labor industry won through the first half of the 20th century, removing it by forcing competition overseas.

To return to my point on competition, when companies build facilities in three regions of the third world and then make the regions compete for which they'll use, it's good for the companies and bad for the workers (and environment etc.) That's why I think we need more and more collective activities globally now between labor as the only way to prevent a huge shift against workers.

Indeed, I think the case can be considered that the trends caused by globalization may determine whether the human race returns to its norm in most of its history of being a mostly feudalistic economy, or whether the tiny bit of the history of the human race where strong middle classes developed in the 20th century can be protected.

Does protectionism have a role in protecting our own workers' interests to have a more gradual, better-planned globalization to let other nations develop? I'd say yes.

Unfortunately, the issue now seems to be between the blind and self-interested 'free trader' approach, and a simplistic 'anti-free trade' backlash.

What does your looking at the effects of globalization tell you?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: loki8481
Topic Title: why is free trade so bad?

honest question, I'm hoping someone can educate my ignorance.

what's so bad about free trade deals? save the 5 years I spent in PA (where I lived in a college town nestled amongst the amish country), I've never really spent time in a heavy manufacturing state... why are these free trade deals like nafta and the proposal with columbia so bad that the democratic candidates seem to be falling over each other trying to denounce them? is there a realistic chance that repealing them would restore the midwest manufacturing belt, or are the problems with manufacturing in the US unrelated to free trade?

Free trade=free reign for big corporate heads

Which in turn sacrifice the good of a country for the good of their own personal pockets.

Not even for the good of their respective companies.

So if you like giving total control of the world to a select few corporate heads, it's your cup o' tea.

No worries, enough people will be suppressed to the point of rising up against the corporate heads, they will have no where to hide anywhere in the "global economy".
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Free trade is not bad, it is necessary. Without free trade, your economy is not going to operate efficiently because you are putting up barriers and making business to not use the most cost efficient resources.

With free trade, there will always be people impacted. It is up to the government to manage that, using the benefit from the free trade to help those people adversely impacted. Unfortunately, this government is only interested in helping the rich to keep their benefit from the free trade, and give zero help to those impacted negatively from it.

I think stopping free trade, like the recent talk of reversing NAFTA is the wrong approach. The right approach is to come up with something to shift the benefit from the free trade to help those who impacted negatively from it, job training, relocation, job seeking assistance....etc.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
This new trend toward isolationism and nationalism in the democratic party is interesting considering where they claim to want to be.

Anyways free trade can be a boon to your economy provided you regulate that trade so another country doesnt undermine your industries. A classic example of this is when Korea subsidized their steel industry to flood the market to kill our steel industry. Just saying we need or dont need free trade is too simplistic. It needs to be regulated by the regulating body(usually govt).

An example of what protectionism and isolationism does to countries is in the former USSR. It starved itself out by not having an open market. Nazi Germany also had the same issue which they had to resolve by invading and plundering other countries for resources and wealth.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,923
259
126
Free trade works when your economy matches the economy it trades with. When it is imbalanced by little things like property rights, civil rights, wage levels, working conditions, safety rules, etc., etc. then it tends to hurt one partner worse than the other.

edit: People need to realize that the U.S. economy surged in the post-WW2 era simply because we started from such a low standard compared to what became western Europe. Living conditions in the U.S. were terrible until the surge in the economy back in the 50's, hell they were significantly worse than they are now are late as the 70's. Life was much harder thirty five years ago.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: MadRat

Free trade works when your economy matches the economy it trades with.

When it is imbalanced by little things like property rights, civil rights, wage levels, working conditions, safety rules, etc., etc. then it tends to hurt one partner worse than the other.


edit: People need to realize that the U.S. economy surged in the post-WW2 era simply because we started from such a low standard compared to what became western Europe.

Living conditions in the U.S. were terrible until the surge in the economy back in the 50's, hell they were significantly worse than they are now are late as the 70's.

Life was much harder thirty five years ago.

Good post :thumbsup:
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: loki8481
is there a realistic chance that repealing them would restore the midwest manufacturing belt, or are the problems with manufacturing in the US unrelated to free trade?

That really is the crux of it, and the answer is no. Enacting protectionist policy has only ever allowed business that can't compete without using the government as a crutch to stagger onwards. Worse, those businesses always realize that they have a captive market in which it's prohibitively expensive for foreign companies to enter. The obvious results: They take the consumer for all they've got know there's no competition to shop at.

Really, think of the effects of protectionism a few decades down the road for America: Local manufacturers reopen and start churning out products. There's no need to compete against any foreign-based corporation, so you get suitable product and price (think American automobiles before the Japanese influx). Now, what's the next step? Drop the tariffs and re-introduce foreign competition? Your local manufacturers, never realistically competitive, immediately drown. Keep the tariffs forever? That's an automatic disqualification to ever being able to compete outside of U.S. borders.

Free trade policies aren't enacted for the fun of writing them. They get written because it's inevitable. While a large disparity in pay and living conditions does tend to lead to an imbalance, the alternative is to be left behind in the dust as the rest of the world adjusts and adapts to the new reality of a global economy. So while some of you may prefer thinking back a few decades to the good ole days where America reigned and the rest of the world couldn't build for crap, realize that daydreams aren't real. Those days are gone, and nobody is going to bring them back. Time to adjust.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MadRat

Free trade works when your economy matches the economy it trades with.

When it is imbalanced by little things like property rights, civil rights, wage levels, working conditions, safety rules, etc., etc. then it tends to hurt one partner worse than the other.


edit: People need to realize that the U.S. economy surged in the post-WW2 era simply because we started from such a low standard compared to what became western Europe.

Living conditions in the U.S. were terrible until the surge in the economy back in the 50's, hell they were significantly worse than they are now are late as the 70's.

Life was much harder thirty five years ago.

Good post :thumbsup:

Heh, yeah right. It's not "free" trade if you start picking who to trade with. And what's the point of trading with countries that have similar economy and most likely similar competitive advantage. Like developed country won't have competitive advantage in lower manual labor cost.

You should not compare US current economy to the old economy to see the benefit of free trade. You people should start looking outside of the US for a change to see the difference between countries with free trade and countries without. Let's say North Korea/Cuba vs. South Korea/Singapore.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Originally posted by: MadRat
edit: People need to realize that the U.S. economy surged in the post-WW2 era simply because we started from such a low standard compared to what became western Europe. Living conditions in the U.S. were terrible until the surge in the economy back in the 50's, hell they were significantly worse than they are now are late as the 70's. Life was much harder thirty five years ago.

uh, the US economy surged post WW2 because every other major industrial country on earth had the shit blown out of it for 5 or 6 years.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MadRat

Free trade works when your economy matches the economy it trades with.

When it is imbalanced by little things like property rights, civil rights, wage levels, working conditions, safety rules, etc., etc. then it tends to hurt one partner worse than the other.


edit: People need to realize that the U.S. economy surged in the post-WW2 era simply because we started from such a low standard compared to what became western Europe.

Living conditions in the U.S. were terrible until the surge in the economy back in the 50's, hell they were significantly worse than they are now are late as the 70's.

Life was much harder thirty five years ago.

Good post :thumbsup:

Heh, yeah right. It's not "free" trade if you start picking who to trade with. And what's the point of trading with countries that have similar economy and most likely similar competitive advantage. Like developed country won't have competitive advantage in lower manual labor cost.

You should not compare US current economy to the old economy to see the benefit of free trade. You people should start looking outside of the US for a change to see the difference between countries with free trade and countries without. Let's say North Korea/Cuba vs. South Korea/Singapore.

South Korea and Singapore are doing well because they make stuff, for competitive prices. North Korea and Cuba are shitholes because they don't do anything worthwhile.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: MadRat

Free trade works when your economy matches the economy it trades with.

When it is imbalanced by little things like property rights, civil rights, wage levels, working conditions, safety rules, etc., etc. then it tends to hurt one partner worse than the other.


edit: People need to realize that the U.S. economy surged in the post-WW2 era simply because we started from such a low standard compared to what became western Europe.

Living conditions in the U.S. were terrible until the surge in the economy back in the 50's, hell they were significantly worse than they are now are late as the 70's.

Life was much harder thirty five years ago.

Good post :thumbsup:

Heh, yeah right. It's not "free" trade if you start picking who to trade with. And what's the point of trading with countries that have similar economy and most likely similar competitive advantage. Like developed country won't have competitive advantage in lower manual labor cost.

You should not compare US current economy to the old economy to see the benefit of free trade. You people should start looking outside of the US for a change to see the difference between countries with free trade and countries without. Let's say North Korea/Cuba vs. South Korea/Singapore.

South Korea and Singapore are doing well because they make stuff, for competitive prices. North Korea and Cuba are shitholes because they don't do anything worthwhile.

So what if SK and Singapore produce good stuff for competitive prices if they cannot sell it internationally. Remember trade works both way and if you won't trade with other countries, other countries won't trade with you too and that's exactly what's happening in NK and Cuba.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
The problem with free trade is it isn't a level playing field.

If all things were equal and it was a perfect world it'd be great, but then so would communism.

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: rchiu
Free trade is not bad, it is necessary. Without free trade, your economy is not going to operate efficiently because you are putting up barriers and making business to not use the most cost efficient resources.

"Free trade" that includes the freedom to exploit very un-free sweat shop labor markets, and lax manufacturing, environmental and product safety conditions, is anything but "free." It's simply shifting the immediate effects of those conditions to locations that still allow them at the expense of American companies and workers.

That doesn't stop more long range fallout, here, including contaminated, unregulated products and higher unemployment, both of which are happening. Without adequate protection and regulation, "free" trade is not fair trade.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
You have to have a job to pay taxes.

Well the USA could just close the door and not allow imports from China Tomorrow. It has happened in other coutries. If we made all our own goods there would be plenty of jobs. Of course some prices may go up, but that is happening already.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Like most everything else, an extreme position on free trade, for or against, is untenable, unwise, and undesirable. Open markets are important to provide consumers with the best products and the best prices. At the same time, however, it is necessary to protect our nation's own workers from having to compete against slave/impoverished labor in other countries where human life is not held in as high regard as it is here.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: rchiu
Free trade is not bad, it is necessary. Without free trade, your economy is not going to operate efficiently because you are putting up barriers and making business to not use the most cost efficient resources.

"Free trade" that includes the freedom to exploit very un-free sweat shop labor markets, and lax manufacturing, environmental and product safety conditions, is anything but "free." It's simply shifting the immediate effects of those conditions to locations that still allow them at the expense of American companies and workers.

That doesn't stop more long range fallout, here, including contaminated, unregulated products and higher unemployment, both of which are happening. Without adequate protection and regulation, "free" trade is not fair trade.

Well, the US really can't worry about what other country do. And remember, what's sweat shop for the US maybe a great career for a developing country. Ask a teenager on the street of Manila or Jakarta if he/she would rather sell newspaper for a few cents and risk their life standing in a busy street, or a factory with stable income.

The lax product quality is a problem for the companies that outsource their production. They are the ones selling the product to the end customers, and they should be the ones ensuring acceptable product quality. It is a regulatory issue and should not be used as an excuse not to have free trade.

Free trade is not bad, what's bad is the lack of regulatory system to have check and balances. You can trade freely, but the end result shouldn't be inferior product or business conduct that violates law, local or foreign. Also there are skills/business that's vital to national interest, those shouldn't be outsourced or let die with free trade from strategic point of view.

And as I stated already, government should do more using the benefit/tax from free trade to help those impacted negatively by free trade and not only make the rich richer. It takes planning and execution, and the government should focus on that instead of stopping free trade.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Free trade is good in theory and on paper but horrible in vivo. Just like communism.

The problem is that free trade relies on smart consumers. People who won't just buy at wal-mart because it is cheapest. They need to be willing to pay for quality. A consumer can be very powerful if they want to be. This concept is completely missed by an average American.

It also fails because there is no way for counter against huge corporations. They completely go against true free trade because they involve complicated deals and backings that give unfair advantages to products that might not be as good. The original xbox is a great example. For most other companies it would have tanked, but microsoft kept the money artery pumping strong and luckily enough there were enough frat boys to buy halo and now they are debatably the best consule. A superior system at the time, which came out internet ready but didn't have the backing, Sega Dreamcast, barely lasted a few months even with some kick ass games. If there was truly free trade the inferior system would be gone and my Dreamcast would have a library full of games.

The huge corporations (though they pretend to hate it) love government intervention, because in its current manifestation it is a huge corrupt inefficient bureaucracy with a semi-incompetent and easily manipulated dictator. The government is a very easy to control in this form and as long as they work under the guise of a "Free Market", no one is the wiser.

Personally I see a true free market as the competition for certain goals by 3 groups all with mutual interests. The groups being the consumer, the laborer, and the owner/investor/manager. Each group should be able to keep the market free a system of checks and balances much like how our government was originally supposed to work. The consumer insure the is a buyer for the good and demands that they get acceptable quality goods at fair prices. The laborer produces insures that that they produce a decent quality good and demands fair wage and safe working conditions. The owner/investor/manager (depending on the situation, whatever title they want) makes sure the system is kept up by supplying capital and organizing the production. They demand that they get fair retribution for their investment but are also expected to offer the good at fair price and pay a fair wage to the laborer.

Since in actuality, the consumer is also be a laborer or a own/inv/mana but usually in a different area, they need to remember that they are also working for a consumer in their circle. Many different circles in many different areas of many different businesses all competing in this system is a free market because each interest group has equal power and equal responsibility ...

That is freedom. The Free Market most people speak of is the freedom for the powerful to do whatever they want and keep the market as unfair as possible. Nothing Free about that. No freedom to produce and invent when there is a huge impenetrable wall in front of you.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Free trade is good in theory and on paper but horrible in vivo. Just like communism.

The problem is that free trade relies on smart consumers. People who won't just buy at wal-mart because it is cheapest. They need to be willing to pay for quality. A consumer can be very powerful if they want to be. This concept is completely missed by an average American.

It also fails because there is no way for counter against huge corporations. They completely go against true free trade because they involve complicated deals and backings that give unfair advantages to products that might not be as good. The original xbox is a great example. For most other companies it would have tanked, but microsoft kept the money artery pumping strong and luckily enough there were enough frat boys to buy halo and now they are debatably the best consule. A superior system at the time, which came out internet ready but didn't have the backing, Sega Dreamcast, barely lasted a few months even with some kick ass games. If there was truly free trade the inferior system would be gone and my Dreamcast would have a library full of games.

The huge corporations (though they pretend to hate it) love government intervention, because in its current manifestation it is a huge corrupt inefficient bureaucracy with a semi-incompetent and easily manipulated dictator. The government is a very easy to control in this form and as long as they work under the guise of a "Free Market", no one is the wiser.

Personally I see a true free market as the competition for certain goals by 3 groups all with mutual interests. The groups being the consumer, the laborer, and the owner/investor/manager. Each group should be able to keep the market free a system of checks and balances much like how our government was originally supposed to work. The consumer insure the is a buyer for the good and demands that they get acceptable quality goods at fair prices. The laborer produces insures that that they produce a decent quality good and demands fair wage and safe working conditions. The owner/investor/manager (depending on the situation, whatever title they want) makes sure the system is kept up by supplying capital and organizing the production. They demand that they get fair retribution for their investment but are also expected to offer the good at fair price and pay a fair wage to the laborer.

Since in actuality, the consumer is also be a laborer or a own/inv/mana but usually in a different area, they need to remember that they are also working for a consumer in their circle. Many different circles in many different areas of many different businesses all competing in this system is a free market because each interest group has equal power and equal responsibility ...

That is freedom. The Free Market most people speak of is the freedom for the powerful to do whatever they want and keep the market as unfair as possible. Nothing Free about that. No freedom to produce and invent when there is a huge impenetrable wall in front of you.

Big business is not evil, they are just interested in maximizing their profit. With or without free trade, they will try to pull their weight, use their connections, their $$ and try to exploit ways to make more money. That's why we have agencies to make sure products meet safety and quality standard. That's why we have consumer protection agencies. That's why we have labor laws. All those can be extended to businesses with global presence.

And just like we didn't say let's stop business from doing business because we are afraid of all the issues that come with big business, we shouldn't say let's stop free trade because there are issues with free trade.
 
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