Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I find this rather simply-mindedly silly, really. I think liberal and conservative are two sides of the same coin, the coin that is seen as one coin when opposites are integrated in higher understanding. Each is equally valid and equally false depending. It is the higher understanding that makes it possible to spend the coin and collect its value, not the contest as to which face is better. Truth and higher understanding involve the elimination of paradox through integration at higher levels of understanding.
Let us look at one example, how liberals and conservatives deal with the notion of criminal evil. The conservative says that man is basically evil and without the threat of punishment will commit crimes. The liberal says that man is good and that punishment is wrong, that rehabilitation is needed, that empathy and understanding should fix the problem of crime. The fact is there is right and wrong in each position.
Crime is a function and result of self hate, something, however, which all of us were made to feel. It expresses itself differently in different people, but beneath the surface has the identical root. As children we were made to conform, to follow some invisible standard and pattern we could not comprehend. The liberal rebels and sympathizes with the oppressed whereas the conservative adopts and identifies with the oppressor. The conservative seeks stability and fairness in control and the liberal in freedom of expression. The liberal wants what he believes is th good in him to be free and the conservative wants to repress what is bad in him. This duality is the result of the notion of good and evil. At a higher understanding one sees there is no such thing as good and evil. These are ideas created by language that label and create emotional feelings. Once one assigns reality to, say evil, one can be made to feel that is who one is by being put down and called that, made to feel that, as a child. Once that feeling is in place it has to be suppressed because it is tremendously painful to feel that you are actually no good. It is this suppression that prevents integration in higher understanding. The liberals fight to proclaim their innocence and the innocence of all men and the conservatives fight to keep all hell from breaking loose.
Both are right and both are wrong. If you encourage people who are filled with self hate to accept who they are as good they will commit all manner of evil. They will act their negative feelings out. If you try to repress evil it just becomes more difficult to discover and weed out. Humanity is not good or evil as such. Humanity is sick and can heal. This can happen only through religious transcendence or psychoanalysis, self understanding, in my opinion. All else, I think, is just the wheel of karma, and endless back and forth between imaginary poles that are really the same.
Originally posted by: Arkaign
There's nothing 'status quo' about Bush and his cadre of fake conservatives.
Thank you.Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Arkaign
There's nothing 'status quo' about Bush and his cadre of fake conservatives.
First modern political conservatism is not status quo centered. In fact a person can easily argue that the majority of the movement has been very change oriented. Second, there are no such things as "fake conservatives." There are a great many different types, often at odds with each other.
There is so much wrong with this thread... it's completely hopeless. The title itself is an ignorant use of loaded terms out of context. Conservatives and liberals today are a lot different from conservatives and liberals of 30, 60, or 150 years ago. Comparisons like those put forth in this horrible thread are meaningless.
You've said quite a lot there. It's especially glaring considering that you agree with me. But even more so considering that the current conservative government in power is all about big government and uprooting those freedoms you so cherish. What do you have to say about that?
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Arkaign
There's nothing 'status quo' about Bush and his cadre of fake conservatives.
First modern political conservatism is not status quo centered. In fact a person can easily argue that the majority of the movement has been very change oriented. Second, there are no such things as "fake conservatives." There are a great many different types, often at odds with each other.
There is so much wrong with this thread... it's completely hopeless. The title itself is an ignorant use of loaded terms out of context. Conservatives and liberals today are a lot different from conservatives and liberals of 30, 60, or 150 years ago. Comparisons like those put forth in this horrible thread are meaningless.
Can you name one thing Conservatives have done to promote the public welfare rather than restricting it?Originally posted by: Genx87
Conservatism doesnt have true roots. As an ideology it is more or less defined as resisting change and preserving the status quo.
What the mainstream conservative movement in the United States is trying to preserve is the old ideals of liberalism. To keep those roots which our founding fathers planted from being pulled to the left by big govt.
As for right minded ideologies. There is plenty of disasters on both sides of the aisle to go around.
Originally posted by: Narmer
I guess those that prey on fear and are content with the status quo aren't in sync with the drive of mankind, which (I think) is advancement.
History is littered with revolutionaries that were laughed at, lambasted, and/or persecuted in their time. Today, it is the conservatives that cherish their idealism and seek to protect while the liberals want to carry it to the next level. A simple example of this would be the bedrock of Western Civilization, Christianity.
History is littered with conservatives who were made to look like fools as time passed. Joseph McCarthy is an easy example. But others include about every monarchy known to man and their fight against what those in the West would consider Freemasonic idealism.
May God bless inclusion, freedom, and ingenuity.
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Chrisitianity (and all religions) have been a crutch and a foudation of hate, abuse, prejudice, and general evil for many thousands of years.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I find this rather simply-mindedly silly, really. I think liberal and conservative are two sides of the same coin, the coin that is seen as one coin when opposites are integrated in higher understanding. Each is equally valid and equally false depending. It is the higher understanding that makes it possible to spend the coin and collect its value, not the contest as to which face is better. Truth and higher understanding involve the elimination of paradox through integration at higher levels of understanding.
Let us look at one example, how liberals and conservatives deal with the notion of criminal evil. The conservative says that man is basically evil and without the threat of punishment will commit crimes. The liberal says that man is good and that punishment is wrong, that rehabilitation is needed, that empathy and understanding should fix the problem of crime. The fact is there is right and wrong in each position.
Crime is a function and result of self hate, something, however, which all of us were made to feel. It expresses itself differently in different people, but beneath the surface has the identical root. As children we were made to conform, to follow some invisible standard and pattern we could not comprehend. The liberal rebels and sympathizes with the oppressed whereas the conservative adopts and identifies with the oppressor. The conservative seeks stability and fairness in control and the liberal in freedom of expression. The liberal wants what he believes is th good in him to be free and the conservative wants to repress what is bad in him. This duality is the result of the notion of good and evil. At a higher understanding one sees there is no such thing as good and evil. These are ideas created by language that label and create emotional feelings. Once one assigns reality to, say evil, one can be made to feel that is who one is by being put down and called that, made to feel that, as a child. Once that feeling is in place it has to be suppressed because it is tremendously painful to feel that you are actually no good. It is this suppression that prevents integration in higher understanding. The liberals fight to proclaim their innocence and the innocence of all men and the conservatives fight to keep all hell from breaking loose.
Both are right and both are wrong. If you encourage people who are filled with self hate to accept who they are as good they will commit all manner of evil. They will act their negative feelings out. If you try to repress evil it just becomes more difficult to discover and weed out. Humanity is not good or evil as such. Humanity is sick and can heal. This can happen only through religious transcendence or psychoanalysis, self understanding, in my opinion. All else, I think, is just the wheel of karma, and endless back and forth between imaginary poles that are really the same.
Originally posted by: EvanB
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Chrisitianity (and all religions) have been a crutch and a foudation of hate, abuse, prejudice, and general evil for many thousands of years.
In addition to being the inspiration for some of the greatest achievements to date. (I'm not religious myself)
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: EvanB
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Chrisitianity (and all religions) have been a crutch and a foudation of hate, abuse, prejudice, and general evil for many thousands of years.
In addition to being the inspiration for some of the greatest achievements to date. (I'm not religious myself)
The old cathedrals are pretty, although the really nice ones are made by freemasons, so what has it given us besides witch hunts, slowing down progress, stopping scientists for centuries etc?
Feeding the poor does not count, they only do that to prey on the people they know are already weak.
Originally posted by: BoberFett
If you really want to twist your mind, consider the fact that the Bush administration has liberally expanded the powers of the president, while Democrats have been fighting to maintain a more conservative executive branch.
As for Carter, just look to gas rationing and runaway inflation as a sign of his failure as president. Helluva nice guy, but don't let him run the show.
Originally posted by: Narmer
I'd be interested in a bad liberal moment or a good conservative moment if you have any. The obvious ones I can think of would involve the advent of communism, but that is more or less a feudal system by any other name wrapped in the aforementioned Freemasonic idealisms.
Originally posted by: Narmer
I guess those that prey on fear and are content with the status quo aren't in sync with the drive of mankind, which (I think) is advancement.
History is littered with revolutionaries that were laughed at, lambasted, and/or persecuted in their time. Today, it is the conservatives that cherish their idealism and seek to protect while the liberals want to carry it to the next level. A simple example of this would be the bedrock of Western Civilization, Christianity.
History is littered with conservatives who were made to look like fools as time passed. Joseph McCarthy is an easy example. But others include about every monarchy known to man and their fight against what those in the West would consider Freemasonic idealism.
May God bless inclusion, freedom, and ingenuity.
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: Narmer
I guess those that prey on fear and are content with the status quo aren't in sync with the drive of mankind, which (I think) is advancement.
History is littered with revolutionaries that were laughed at, lambasted, and/or persecuted in their time. Today, it is the conservatives that cherish their idealism and seek to protect while the liberals want to carry it to the next level. A simple example of this would be the bedrock of Western Civilization, Christianity.
History is littered with conservatives who were made to look like fools as time passed. Joseph McCarthy is an easy example. But others include about every monarchy known to man and their fight against what those in the West would consider Freemasonic idealism.
May God bless inclusion, freedom, and ingenuity.
The problem with these Conservatives vs Liberal discussions is the definitions of the two are not clear and change over time.
Were the first century Palestian officials who sent Jesus to Pilate conservatives or liberals? Was Jesus a conservative or a liberal? I am talking about the first century Jew who was predicting that god was coming in his lifetime and would kick out the Romans, punished the wicked and reward the just.
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Can you name one thing Conservatives have done to promote the public welfare rather than restricting it?Originally posted by: Genx87
Conservatism doesnt have true roots. As an ideology it is more or less defined as resisting change and preserving the status quo.
What the mainstream conservative movement in the United States is trying to preserve is the old ideals of liberalism. To keep those roots which our founding fathers planted from being pulled to the left by big govt.
As for right minded ideologies. There is plenty of disasters on both sides of the aisle to go around.
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: BoberFett
If you really want to twist your mind, consider the fact that the Bush administration has liberally expanded the powers of the president, while Democrats have been fighting to maintain a more conservative executive branch.
As for Carter, just look to gas rationing and runaway inflation as a sign of his failure as president. Helluva nice guy, but don't let him run the show.
There was never gas rationing during the Carter administration.
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: BoberFett
If you really want to twist your mind, consider the fact that the Bush administration has liberally expanded the powers of the president, while Democrats have been fighting to maintain a more conservative executive branch.
As for Carter, just look to gas rationing and runaway inflation as a sign of his failure as president. Helluva nice guy, but don't let him run the show.
There was never gas rationing during the Carter administration.
Price controls which had the same effect.
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: BoberFett
If you really want to twist your mind, consider the fact that the Bush administration has liberally expanded the powers of the president, while Democrats have been fighting to maintain a more conservative executive branch.
As for Carter, just look to gas rationing and runaway inflation as a sign of his failure as president. Helluva nice guy, but don't let him run the show.
There was never gas rationing during the Carter administration.
Price controls which had the same effect.
How so?
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: BoberFett
If you really want to twist your mind, consider the fact that the Bush administration has liberally expanded the powers of the president, while Democrats have been fighting to maintain a more conservative executive branch.
As for Carter, just look to gas rationing and runaway inflation as a sign of his failure as president. Helluva nice guy, but don't let him run the show.
There was never gas rationing during the Carter administration.
Price controls which had the same effect.
How so?
You havent seen the lines of people trying to buy non-existent gas?
Granted it wasnt a govt mandated rationing. But the market rationed the consumers by not providing any product.
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Can you name one thing Conservatives have done to promote the public welfare rather than restricting it?Originally posted by: Genx87
Conservatism doesnt have true roots. As an ideology it is more or less defined as resisting change and preserving the status quo.
What the mainstream conservative movement in the United States is trying to preserve is the old ideals of liberalism. To keep those roots which our founding fathers planted from being pulled to the left by big govt.
As for right minded ideologies. There is plenty of disasters on both sides of the aisle to go around.
Currently limiting the size and scope of govt is public welfare #1. When the govt grows your liberties shrink.