why is it so hard for people from the ghetto to get out of the ghetto?

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: spidey07
1) Promotes being dumb as a good thing
2) Out of wedlock kids by young mothers
3) Don't finish high school
4) Don't know the value of working hard and providing for yourself and family

Those are the biggest ones and they are all self inflicted.

A society where private business would rather hire a white ex-con over a black person with a clean slate and where businesses will disqualify your resume for having a 'black sounding name' probably doesn't help either

http://findarticles.com/p/arti...is_2_108/ai_n15681393/
http://findarticles.com/p/arti...5/is_2_48/ai_97873146/

I really hate to agree with you, but this is true. People like to pretend that racism doesn't hold black people back anymore, but it does. A similar study was done with common Spanish names with the same results - having a Spanish name is a big detriment on a resume. Sucks for me - I'm a white guy with a Spanish name. Maybe I should put a picture on my resume?

And for Asians, one of the many reasons parents encourage their children to become doctors is because they don't want their kids to face discrimination in the workplace (especially in promotions). 2nd option would be hi-tech (as there's less racism in that industry)

It's definitely not 'perceived' racism.

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
That's fucking bullshit. It takes half a generation. Look at asian immigrants. All 1.5 generationers are able to integrate and are relatively successful in their education and professions.

this

I find it funny that 2nd or 3rd generation spanish kids in my city seem to all have accents while I've never met an american born asian kid (I'm indian) with an accent..


I live in the ghetto (bed stuy brooklyn, and I'm moving - yay!), here's an interesting thing I noticed:

I actually do think there are forces that keep the ghetto "down." I live in the ghetto and see random shootings, cheap booze, and easy access to drugs. Do you see bookstores? Culture at all? Where are the cops?

Last year I was pretty sure that this neighborhood was going to be gentrified within a year. The signs were all there - cheap property values, neighboring high priced areas, a community at war with itself

In the past few months there was a massive spike in crime - random and unrandom shootings, robberies, etc.

I also noticed vans full of orthodox jewish investors driving around the neighborhood, posting "sell your house for money!" posters and examining empty lots. Because of the crime and history of violence, property values were already low and fear was on the street - my wife an I started looking for a new place during all of the violence.

After the crime spike, the police presence multiplied substantially. They used the events as a reason to set up block based patrolling, etc.

Now everything is quiet. Buildings have been sold and are in the process of refurbishing and a whole new group of upper-middle class, white post-grads are moving in as property values steadily increase.

I don't believe it's all by coincidence

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

No, we were more disadvantaged then black/brown.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Change doesn't happen overnight, and the change you're talking about usually takes generations. Yes, generations. There are examples of successful people going from ghetto into upper middle class, or even higher, but most of the times, if it ever happens, it takes multiple generations to get out of it. Typical progression is low wage no steady job > low wage steady job in manufacturing, etc > college degree, lower middle class > advanced college degree salaried job > advanced degree, business owner, etc. That's 3 or 4 generations right there.

Too many things must come into alignment in order for this to happen: parents must be committed to change, work their whole lives for the betterment of their children, they must sacrifice their quality of life to give their children a chance to advance, they have to do a good job raising them to make sure their kids actually take advantage of the opportunity provided to them, and the children must repeat the cycle as well.

The chances of it all working out are simply way too small. All it takes is one bad generation and they're done for, one major illness without health insurance and they're done for, an accident at work, kid not wanting to continue the cycle, etc etc etc...

It's possible, just very very unlikely. A man is a product of the environment he grew up in, change is possible, but requires tons of work and a lot of luck.

That's fucking bullshit. It takes half a generation. Look at asian immigrants. All 1.5 generationers are able to integrate and are relatively successful in their education and professions.

Not to mention all the Europeans 100 years ago who came over here. Within 1 generation they were integrated. Most of the African American population has a longer history in this country than people of European decent.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Mermaidman

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Change doesn't happen overnight, and the change you're talking about usually takes generations. Yes, generations. There are examples of successful people going from ghetto into upper middle class, or even higher, but most of the times, if it ever happens, it takes multiple generations to get out of it. Typical progression is low wage no steady job > low wage steady job in manufacturing, etc > college degree, lower middle class > advanced college degree salaried job > advanced degree, business owner, etc. That's 3 or 4 generations right there.

Too many things must come into alignment in order for this to happen: parents must be committed to change, work their whole lives for the betterment of their children, they must sacrifice their quality of life to give their children a chance to advance, they have to do a good job raising them to make sure their kids actually take advantage of the opportunity provided to them, and the children must repeat the cycle as well.

The chances of it all working out are simply way too small. All it takes is one bad generation and they're done for, one major illness without health insurance and they're done for, an accident at work, kid not wanting to continue the cycle, etc etc etc...

It's possible, just very very unlikely. A man is a product of the environment he grew up in, change is possible, but requires tons of work and a lot of luck.

That's fucking bullshit. It takes half a generation. Look at asian immigrants. All 1.5 generationers are able to integrate and are relatively successful in their education and professions.

You conveniently forget to mention that Asian immigrants came to this country with a stable cultural and familial identity. Hmm . . . How did most blacks land on our shores? Oh yeah--as fucking SLAVES.

Do any of the blacks alive know or grow up with someone who knew a single slave? hmm... seems slavery is a couple generations ago.

Growing up in terrible city myself, and while living in a normal middle-class neighborhood, it was impossible to not be constantly surrounded by some level of street life. Deeper into the city and that level of street life skyrocketed, but I'm far from naive when it comes to the realities of that living situation.

It's no longer a slavery issue. It hasn't been for years. It's merely a vicious cycle that few break from. It takes those strong-minded individuals to break from it, and some manage to keep the kids from it as well.
But in general, as was stated earlier - bad children -> bad parents -> bad children.

But it's not a skin color issue.

True racism is less vivid then it used to be. Most of the racists today, ignoring the KKK sympathetic pricks, are really classists of some sort. The thugs, ghetto street life... we stereotype against that. It just so happens at this point, the majority in that "class" if you will, has black skin. Mexicans and asians and whites are all in the same group, but it is dominated by blacks on average (some cities it is different. LA? Fuck that, that shit is real).

But what it is I am saying, is that there is no simple, fix this and you're good type answer. There are a few issues that could end up leading a child to keep that cycle going. It could be the kid just keeps making mistakes. But when you are in that environment, mistakes have a real impact. In the middle class environment, you can make mistakes your whole life, and still come out of it a level-headed individual.

The inner-city life is always going to exist. Because even when you get individuals who manage to get out of the city and start a normal family somewhere else, what happens is plenty of young adults from the middle-class life make mistakes and can't recover from them either. They end up in the inner city quite frequently. So all the people who got themselves out of the inner city are eventually replaced anyhow. Sometimes those who move in to the inner city know it needs to be avoided and make every attempt to keep their kids clean and on the right path. But everyone reacts differently and sometimes you just can't keep a kid out of trouble if he always surrounded by that lifestyle.

But for people to get out of the ghetto, well.... it takes the persistence to not dabble into the trouble that is constantly surrounding you, and it takes either a few lessons learned or a little luck, or a strong persistence in doing everything possible to have those fortunate opportunities. To employers, dressing like a thug means you likely behave as one. And I've seen that problem too. I've had friends who grew up in middle to upper class neighborhoods, were actually either smart or at least level-headed and had excellent parents, and yet still dressed like they were from the streets. I never understood this. To some youth, it's the image, and if black, they view it as culture. And these individuals sometimes have problems finding jobs, even when they actually don't behave like thugs.

Half the problem, is we have to raise the kids in such a way that they don't ever get the impression that the image of a thug is cool. Half the problem is kids have trouble viewing themselves as unique and want to stand out (why? fuck that shit, I hated standing out unless it was because i was an allstar at something). Or in the ghetto, the reverse is true - they often don't want to stand out. Even a level-headed kid who decent parents, might feel pressured to at least hang out with troubled youth because he doesn't want to feel rejected or stand out in some way. When you get surrounded by that type of lifestyle, you can feel pressured to do what it takes to impress your peers. This is where parenting is important, and many parents don't really mess with a kid's social circle. It's a sociology thing, and I'd say its very real. I've been there, but thankfully the things I did as a kid I either didn't get caught or the punishment was enough to make me think straight but not keep me repeating that mistake due to a feeling of rebellion. I was never much of a rebel, else I could have ended up going down the wrong path due to what was around me in my youth. But then again, I had more "good" friends than "bad" friends, and that ratio grew toward the good side as I aged even more.

Not really sure where I went with this, where I planned on going with it, and if I ever achieved my end point. But I feel like I need to move on to something else.

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

No, we were more disadvantaged then black/brown.

I'm brown too and, you know, my brown/yellow cousins/uncles don't get enough props. I am amazed, proud, and in awe of what my parents and your parents have accomplished. They came here with nothing, broke their backs, and sacrificed so much to obtain the american dream.

I'm also so lucky to have them as role models - I understand the fight. I don't think some other people, born here and into poverty, understand the simple lesson that you need to sweat and bleed to make it. Hell, college-mates of mine feel so entitled that their parents pay their rents while they work at a "gallery." Fucking lazy assholes.. Me? I work my ass off and am proud to do so, but I learned that mentality from my parents.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: swbsam

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

No, we were more disadvantaged then black/brown.

I'm brown too and, you know, my brown/yellow cousins/uncles don't get enough props. I am amazed, proud, and in awe of what my parents and your parents have accomplished. They came here with nothing, broke their backs, and sacrificed so much to obtain the american dream.

I'm also so lucky to have them as role models - I understand the fight. I don't think some other people, born here and into poverty, understand the simply lesson that you need to sweat and bleed to make it. Hell, college-mates of mine feel so entitled that their parents pay their rents while they work at a "gallery." Fucking lazy assholes.. Me? I work my ass off and am proud to do so, but I learned that mentality from my parents.

by brown he means latino. indians are lumped in as asian.

 

[keird]

Originally posted by: swbsam
...vans full of orthodox jewish investors ...

I don't believe it's all by coincidence

Are you really suggesting that Jewish investors somehow influenced your neighbors to shoot each other?

Yeah, Ira is gonna' get Orthodox on your ass if you don't cap Mrs. Jones in 3B.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: jonks
You guys black/brown?

Nope, I'm asian as fuck and have lived in areas predominately populated by mexicans and blacks all my life.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

No, we were more disadvantaged then black/brown.

How's that?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: jonks
You guys black/brown?

Nope, I'm asian as fuck and have lived in areas predominately populated by mexicans and blacks all my life.

And do you think white people have a general fear or mistrust of asians, or do you think most whites view asians in a relatively positive light, except after being in a car accident with one?

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: swbsam
...vans full of orthodox jewish investors ...

I don't believe it's all by coincidence

Are you really suggesting that Jewish investors somehow influenced your neighbors to shoot each other?

Yeah, Ira is gonna' get Orthodox on your ass if you don't cap Mrs. Jones in 3B.

I'm implying that there's some order in teh chaos. Crack destroyed a neighborhood and that destruction benefits someone in the end... How did crack get there? Why was it allowed to stay for so long? Cocaine epidemic in a suburban area doesn't spill out onto the streets.. a pot dealer in Long Island gets taken care of very quickly while crack dealers in the ghetto are allowed to linger just a bit, do a little more damage.. it's interesting when you look at the bigger picture.

 

[jinduy]

some ethnicities have built a solid and very hard-to-break cultural framework, for better or worse, that shapes a majority of them (black/brown/asian).

it's no coincidence that asians are generally known to not be slackers and work hard due to extreme parental pressure (good or bad). my views on hispanics have changed over time though. i think that they are next in terms of having a big cultural evolution for better.

i'm not sure how solid of an argument it is to throw out that slavery card...

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: jonks
You guys black/brown?

Nope, I'm asian as fuck and have lived in areas predominately populated by mexicans and blacks all my life.

And do you think white people have a general fear or mistrust of asians, or do you think most whites view asians in a relatively positive light, except after being in a car accident with one?

Not all of us are bad drivers

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: jinduy
i'm not sure how solid of an argument it is to throw out that slavery card...

What about the segregation card?

 

[keird]

Originally posted by: swbsam

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: swbsam
...vans full of orthodox jewish investors ...

I don't believe it's all by coincidence

Are you really suggesting that Jewish investors somehow influenced your neighbors to shoot each other?

Yeah, Ira is gonna' get Orthodox on your ass if you don't cap Mrs. Jones in 3B.

I'm implying that there's some order in teh chaos. Crack destroyed a neighborhood and that destruction benefits someone in the end... How did crack get there? Why was it allowed to stay for so long? Cocaine epidemic in a suburban area doesn't spill out onto the streets.. a pot dealer in Long Island gets taken care of very quickly while crack dealers in the ghetto are allowed to linger just a bit, do a little more damage.. it's interesting when you look at the bigger picture.

Probably the self-cleaning-oven theory that I heard from a Chicago cop. Just let them kill each other, that might be the sentiment.

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: jinduy
some ethnicities have built a solid and very hard-to-break cultural framework, for better or worse, that shapes a majority of them (black/brown/asian).

it's no coincidence that asians are generally known to not be slackers and work hard due to extreme parental pressure (good or bad). my views on hispanics have changed over time though. i think that they are next in terms of having a big cultural evolution for better.

i'm not sure how solid of an argument it is to throw out that slavery card...

I agree with that point, I really do think that hispanics are going to have a bit of a cultural revolution. I think the division between "ricans" and "mexicans," etc. hurt them and unifying under the latino banner will help them organize and be part of a larger, powerful culture

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

No, we were more disadvantaged then black/brown.

How's that?

Let's see....

1) English
2) Lack of understand of US culture
3) Less access to government welfare
4) Less available jobs
5) No access to affirmative action, higher standards of qualification for college, work, etc.
6) Genetically less aggressive personality

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: swbsam

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: swbsam
...vans full of orthodox jewish investors ...

I don't believe it's all by coincidence

Are you really suggesting that Jewish investors somehow influenced your neighbors to shoot each other?

Yeah, Ira is gonna' get Orthodox on your ass if you don't cap Mrs. Jones in 3B.

I'm implying that there's some order in teh chaos. Crack destroyed a neighborhood and that destruction benefits someone in the end... How did crack get there? Why was it allowed to stay for so long? Cocaine epidemic in a suburban area doesn't spill out onto the streets.. a pot dealer in Long Island gets taken care of very quickly while crack dealers in the ghetto are allowed to linger just a bit, do a little more damage.. it's interesting when you look at the bigger picture.

Probably the self-cleaning-oven theory that I heard from a Chicago cop. Just let them kill each other, that might be the sentiment.

Except this oven glorifies the grease and in the process of self cleaning actually produces more grease than was there in the first place.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you know what a 1.5 generationer is? It's someone who immigrated to this country as a child. Hence, the half generation.

Please, even though my parents have college degrees we came here penniless and started in the ghetto. They spoke no english and started off doing odd jobs working long hours.

After half a generation, even a dumb repuglican republican.txt etc like me is making >3x per capita income in my mid 20s.

Same, except without the college education.

You guys black/brown?

No, we were more disadvantaged then black/brown.

How's that?

Let's see....

1) English
2) Lack of understand of US culture
3) Less access to government welfare
4) Less available jobs
5) No access to affirmative action, higher standards of qualification for college, work, etc.
6) Genetically less aggressive personality

And yet you could still walk into a store to apply for a job without the security guard following you with his eyes from the moment you walked through the door.

 

[swbsam]

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: swbsam

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: swbsam
...vans full of orthodox jewish investors ...

I don't believe it's all by coincidence

Are you really suggesting that Jewish investors somehow influenced your neighbors to shoot each other?

Yeah, Ira is gonna' get Orthodox on your ass if you don't cap Mrs. Jones in 3B.

I'm implying that there's some order in teh chaos. Crack destroyed a neighborhood and that destruction benefits someone in the end... How did crack get there? Why was it allowed to stay for so long? Cocaine epidemic in a suburban area doesn't spill out onto the streets.. a pot dealer in Long Island gets taken care of very quickly while crack dealers in the ghetto are allowed to linger just a bit, do a little more damage.. it's interesting when you look at the bigger picture.

Probably the self-cleaning-oven theory that I heard from a Chicago cop. Just let them kill each other, that might be the sentiment.

Except this oven glorifies the grease and in the process of self cleaning actually produces more grease than was there in the first place.

I don't buy the argument that ghetto culture glorifies ghetto culture. I just think it's a sad end result of helplessness - "we can't change ourselves, so let's be proud of who we are." It's totally defeatist, but I don't think rap made the ghetto, I think the ghetto made rap... The ghetto was there before Chuck D and Flava Flav..

and I really like Chuck D.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: jonks

And yet you could still walk into a store to apply for a job without the security guard following you with his eyes from the moment you walked through the door.

Which affects if you can make it in life if you really try....how?

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: jonks
And yet you could still walk into a store to apply for a job without the security guard following you with his eyes from the moment you walked through the door.

You act like asians have never been discriminated against.

 

[OCGuy]

Because the ghetto culture teaches them that education, correct grammar, and hard work make you an uncle tom.