why is it so hard for people from the ghetto to get out of the ghetto?

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yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
5,079
0
0
It's more of a matter of perception than anything else. People in low-income neighborhoods look around and they'll see Tom,Dick, and Harry driving around in their new BMWs or gabbing away about their next trip to cancun or something similar, and they feel slighted. They perceive other people putting in less effort and reaping more rewards out of life and feel it's unfair so they rationalize it by citing things like race, or gender, or skin color, or upbringing, or corruption or government and convince themselves that the blame lies inside an amorphous system they cannot beat. Hence, they stop trying. They no longer aspire to leave where they are. Instead they sit around griping and bemoaning their lot in life. It stops being about what they can do for themselves and improve their standards but rather the notion that, "If I have to work twice as hard just to get the same as the whites/asians/republicans/leprechauns, I'm not gonna do it. It's not fair. Why can't I get a fair shake?".

It happens in the workplace all the time. You find out your manager makes twice as much as you and what usually occurs? Your output and productivity drops, not to mention the beating morale and motivation take. You stop aspiring to do better. You get locked in and you gripe about how very stupid middle/upper management is and how, if you were in charge, you could totally do better...but rarely, do the corporate drones ever dust themselves off and try and be better. I hear it all the time, "If you could do a better job, then leave -- start your own company -- go work elsewhere -- fsck your manager". But rarely does anyone ever do so. The notion that you might have to invest large amounts of effort for something that isn't guaranteed can be terrifying.

Fact of the matter is, life is rarely, if ever, fair. The world doesn't give 2 bits about you. Everyone, regardless of race, color, or creed is responsible for their own standard of living and if you want a shot at making things better than where you are, you've gotta roll up your sleeves and put up or shut up.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
the way i see it, the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto is going to get passed on to the children. rinse, repeat.

ex. not emphasizing education. having families before financially prepared. etc.

This thread demonstrates a sad truth: there are tons of ignorant people of all races. People don't "land" into ghettos because of their decisions and values. People are forced into ghettos by other people. People are born into ghettos.

Who is to blame for your ignorance? Is it the school system, your parents, your roll models, that noise the youth calls music, or you?
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: yoda291
It's more of a matter of perception than anything else. People in low-income neighborhoods look around and they'll see Tom,Dick, and Harry driving around in their new BMWs or gabbing away about their next trip to cancun or something similar, and they feel slighted. They perceive other people putting in less effort and reaping more rewards out of life and feel it's unfair so they rationalize it by citing things like race, or gender, or skin color, or upbringing, or corruption or government and convince themselves that the blame lies inside an amorphous system they cannot beat. Hence, they stop trying. They no longer aspire to leave where they are. Instead they sit around griping and bemoaning their lot in life. It stops being about what they can do for themselves and improve their standards but rather the notion that, "If I have to work twice as hard just to get the same as the whites/asians/republicans/leprechauns, I'm not gonna do it. It's not fair. Why can't I get a fair shake?".

It happens in the workplace all the time. You find out your manager makes twice as much as you and what usually occurs? Your output and productivity drops, not to mention the beating morale and motivation take. You stop aspiring to do better. You get locked in and you gripe about how very stupid middle/upper management is and how, if you were in charge, you could totally do better...but rarely, do the corporate drones ever dust themselves off and try and be better. I hear it all the time, "If you could do a better job, then leave -- start your own company -- go work elsewhere -- fsck your manager". But rarely does anyone ever do so. The notion that you might have to invest large amounts of effort for something that isn't guaranteed can be terrifying.

Fact of the matter is, life is rarely, if ever, fair. The world doesn't give 2 bits about you. Everyone, regardless of race, color, or creed is responsible for their own standard of living and if you want a shot at making things better than where you are, you've gotta roll up your sleeves and put up or shut up.

They don't stop trying. Instead of producing they organize their community and put as president someone who will pay for their gas and mortgages!
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,863
68
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
the way i see it, the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto is going to get passed on to the children. rinse, repeat.

ex. not emphasizing education. having families before financially prepared. etc.

This thread demonstrates a sad truth: there are tons of ignorant people of all races. People don't "land" into ghettos because of their decisions and values. People are forced into ghettos by other people. People are born into ghettos.

Who is to blame for your ignorance? Is it the school system, your parents, your roll models, that noise the youth calls music, or you?

I call BS, people arent forced into ghettos.

Most "ghettos" are govt subsidized housing. People move there to have less responsibility and more done for them by the govt. More of the same old "govt helps people and people get worse off" cycle of stupidity.

 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: jonks
There you go, you've answered the thread question (inadvertently). Prejudice against blacks occurs because even rent-a-cops apparently know blacks are more likely to be criminals. Thus, in a viscious circle, blacks are less likely to be hired and more likely to be under enhanced police scrutiny than other groups. When you're under more scrutiny, more wrongdoing will simply be found, justifying the enhanced scrutiny, perpetuating the stereotype.

Tons of white kids in my neighborhood did drugs but drug busts were pretty much non-existent. No busts, no record, no problem getting a job or getting into school or getting loans, etc. Even small criminal records have large impacts, and when the cops watch you like hawks, they will find more to prosecute, statistically.

if i'm not doing anything illegal, cops can watch me all they want.
i got nothing to hide.

Ah, the "if you aren't doing anything wrong you've got nothing to hide" defense. I'll let you educate yourself on why that's an idiotic position. Literature is widely available.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
the way i see it, the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto is going to get passed on to the children. rinse, repeat.

ex. not emphasizing education. having families before financially prepared. etc.

This thread demonstrates a sad truth: there are tons of ignorant people of all races. People don't "land" into ghettos because of their decisions and values. People are forced into ghettos by other people. People are born into ghettos.

Who is to blame for your ignorance? Is it the school system, your parents, your roll models, that noise the youth calls music, or you?

I call BS, people arent forced into ghettos.

Most "ghettos" are govt subsidized housing. People move there to have less responsibility and more done for them by the govt. More of the same old "govt helps people and people get worse off" cycle of stupidity.

I take it you failed history, too. I started writing a post about the history of the "ghetto," but you can just read Wikipedia.

A ghetto is formed in three ways:

--As ports of entry for racial minorities, and immigrant racial minorities.
--When the majority uses compulsion (typically violence, hostility, or legal barriers) to force minorities into particular areas.
--When economic conditions make it difficult for minority members to live in non-minority areas.

Once again, people are forced and born into ghettos. People don't grow up in an integrated, middle class environment and "land" in a ghetto because of their decisions and values.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,863
68
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
the way i see it, the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto is going to get passed on to the children. rinse, repeat.

ex. not emphasizing education. having families before financially prepared. etc.

This thread demonstrates a sad truth: there are tons of ignorant people of all races. People don't "land" into ghettos because of their decisions and values. People are forced into ghettos by other people. People are born into ghettos.

Who is to blame for your ignorance? Is it the school system, your parents, your roll models, that noise the youth calls music, or you?

I call BS, people arent forced into ghettos.

Most "ghettos" are govt subsidized housing. People move there to have less responsibility and more done for them by the govt. More of the same old "govt helps people and people get worse off" cycle of stupidity.

I take it you failed history, too. I started writing a post about the history of the "ghetto," but you can just read Wikipedia.

A ghetto is formed in three ways:

--As ports of entry for racial minorities, and immigrant racial minorities.
--When the majority uses compulsion (typically violence, hostility, or legal barriers) to force minorities into particular areas.
--When economic conditions make it difficult for minority members to live in non-minority areas.

Once again, people are forced and born into ghettos. People don't grow up in an integrated, middle class environment and "land" in a ghetto because of their decisions and values.

lol ok how about modern ghettos there professor.

I dont think blacks in LA are getting violence used against them to everytime they step out of compton.

And my assertion stands, most ghettos today = govt subsidized housing. They are formed by the very people who are claiming to help them.

 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
the way i see it, the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto is going to get passed on to the children. rinse, repeat.

ex. not emphasizing education. having families before financially prepared. etc.

This thread demonstrates a sad truth: there are tons of ignorant people of all races. People don't "land" into ghettos because of their decisions and values. People are forced into ghettos by other people. People are born into ghettos.

Who is to blame for your ignorance? Is it the school system, your parents, your roll models, that noise the youth calls music, or you?

I call BS, people arent forced into ghettos.

Most "ghettos" are govt subsidized housing. People move there to have less responsibility and more done for them by the govt. More of the same old "govt helps people and people get worse off" cycle of stupidity.

I take it you failed history, too. I started writing a post about the history of the "ghetto," but you can just read Wikipedia.

A ghetto is formed in three ways:

--As ports of entry for racial minorities, and immigrant racial minorities.
--When the majority uses compulsion (typically violence, hostility, or legal barriers) to force minorities into particular areas.
--When economic conditions make it difficult for minority members to live in non-minority areas.

Once again, people are forced and born into ghettos. People don't grow up in an integrated, middle class environment and "land" in a ghetto because of their decisions and values.

to a point you are right. i wouldn't say they are forced into a ghetto but society and culture make it very difficult to damn near impossible to get out. But then who is to blame for that?
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Originally posted by: waggy

to a point you are right. i wouldn't say they are forced into a ghetto but society and culture make it very difficult to damn near impossible to get out. But then who is to blame for that?

The obvious answer is whitey.

Taking responsibilty yourself is sooooo last century.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
Originally posted by: Train
And my assertion stands, most ghettos today = govt subsidized housing. They are formed by the very people who are claiming to help them.
So subsidize housing in "rich" neighborhoods.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: n yusef
Once again, people are forced and born into ghettos. People don't grow up in an integrated, middle class environment and "land" in a ghetto because of their decisions and values.

lol ok how about modern ghettos there professor.

I dont think blacks in LA are getting violence used against them to everytime they step out of compton.

And my assertion stands, most ghettos today = govt subsidized housing. They are formed by the very people who are claiming to help them.

Can you read? Most people don't didn't "land" in Compton because of their decisions and values. They "landed" there because that's where they were born. And their parents "landed" there because that's where they were born. If you look back a few generations, you'll find people who "landed" in Compton because it (and other black ghettos) was the only place they could go.

Just so you know, the ghetto is not solely defined by the existence of public housing. If you had any experience in this area, you would know that there are private residences with far worse conditions than any Section 8 housing--which, with a very long waiting list, is not easy to access.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Originally posted by: n yusef
Can you read? Most people don't didn't "land" in Compton because of their decisions and values. They got there because that's where they were born. And their parents got there because that's where they were born. If you look back a few generations, you'll find people who "landed" in Compton because it (and other black ghettos) was the only place they could go.

Just so you know, the ghetto is not solely defined by the existence of public housing. If you had any experience in this area, you would know that there are private residences with far worse conditions than any Section 8 housing--which, with a very long waiting list, is not easy to access.

Maybe one day they'll wake up and go "hey, I want to get out of the ghettos" and do something like go to the library and get their learn on.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Originally posted by: n yusef

Can you read? Most people don't didn't "land" in Compton because of their decisions and values. They got there because that's where they were born. And their parents got there because that's where they were born. If you look back a few generations, you'll find people who "landed" in Compton because it (and other black ghettos) was the only place they could go.

Just so you know, the ghetto is not solely defined by the existence of public housing. If you had any experience in this area, you would know that there are private residences with far worse conditions than any Section 8 housing--which, with a very long waiting list, is not easy to access.


Just because you are born poor does not mean you have to stay that way, sorry. This country has countless examples of people with determination rising up through the social classes.

People just like to take the easy way by being lazy, or get knocked up young and become dependant on the State.

It is called the path of least resistance. And the only one at fault is the idiot that could not figure out how to make a buck in the US without landing in prison or ending up dead.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Train
And my assertion stands, most ghettos today = govt subsidized housing. They are formed by the very people who are claiming to help them.
So subsidize housing in "rich" neighborhoods.

lol brings up a point though. In chicago they had some high rise apartment's that were govt subsidized people complained that the poor shouldnt live in well poor areas. so chicago started this huge project of building nice condo's that would be subsidized by rich people buying a few condo's in each unit.

so they started it and started building the condo's. then they tore down the towers (yes before all (actually before like 10%) the condos were done). so many people lost housing and guess what? ended up living back in the ghetto's with family etc makeing the problem worse.

and many may be wondering what happened to the condo's? the "builders" (oddly won the contracts with no bids..and had a neat clause that gave said if not full they can sale to anyway) ended up selling ALL the units for full price.


wich just goes to N Yusef's point. BUT again i still put the majority of it on colture and upgringing.
 

ric1287

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2005
4,845
0
0
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Train
And my assertion stands, most ghettos today = govt subsidized housing. They are formed by the very people who are claiming to help them.
So subsidize housing in "rich" neighborhoods.

yeah, bring down the "good" areas so they are just slightly better than the shitty areas.

They have subsidized housing in an otherwise nice town by me, and guess where the scummiest, most crime ridden part of town is?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
the way i see it, the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto is going to get passed on to the children. rinse, repeat.

ex. not emphasizing education. having families before financially prepared. etc.

This thread demonstrates a sad truth: there are tons of ignorant people of all races. People don't "land" into ghettos because of their decisions and values. People are forced into ghettos by other people. People are born into ghettos.

Who is to blame for your ignorance? Is it the school system, your parents, your roll models, that noise the youth calls music, or you?

I call BS, people arent forced into ghettos.

Most "ghettos" are govt subsidized housing. People move there to have less responsibility and more done for them by the govt. More of the same old "govt helps people and people get worse off" cycle of stupidity.

I take it you failed history, too. I started writing a post about the history of the "ghetto," but you can just read Wikipedia.

A ghetto is formed in three ways:

--As ports of entry for racial minorities, and immigrant racial minorities.
--When the majority uses compulsion (typically violence, hostility, or legal barriers) to force minorities into particular areas.
--When economic conditions make it difficult for minority members to live in non-minority areas.

Once again, people are forced and born into ghettos. People don't grow up in an integrated, middle class environment and "land" in a ghetto because of their decisions and values.

lol ok how about modern ghettos there professor.

I dont think blacks in LA are getting violence used against them to everytime they step out of compton.

And my assertion stands, most ghettos today = govt subsidized housing. They are formed by the very people who are claiming to help them.

Eh, I think both of you are missing some key details... but more importantly?
n yusef's claim is just laughable. Actually, it's damn hilarious.
Once again, people are forced and born into ghettos. People don't grow up in an integrated, middle class environment and "land" in a ghetto because of their decisions and values.
lolwut? I guarantee that is wrong. People who grow up in a middle-class environment and make bad decisions and have values in opposition of that environment can and do find themselves in the ghetto. The ghettos have the cheapest housing available in the city, and someone who makes bad decisions sometimes find themselves troubled financially. And hell, sometimes their values don't even matter, it's strictly a financial issue.
I've seen it myself. So yes, you are absolutely wrong. It's very possible to land in the ghetto even when you grew up in a middle-class environment and have a middle-class family.

As for Train's comment about the government creating a self-fulfilling ghetto of sorts... eh, I can see your point. Section 8 housing is almost always integrated into the ghetto nearby, however, not all of the ghetto is Section 8. Often the ghetto is typical housing that has terrible property values and you get large families or multi-generational homes. So while government assistance does help keep some aspects of the ghetto alive, at the same time it's more of the people.
Specifically, it's the people abusing the help of the government, milking social programs like welfare and medicaid like no other. I could get into a whole different argument as to how essentially your argument is completely correct in the context of social assistance abuse, because that is indeed the case. But it isn't exactly the government's fault so many are fucking lazy and just rape welfare for their 6 kids living in a shitty home in the inner city while they treat themselves.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Why are people replying to my post, which is about how one "lands" in the ghetto, with assertions of personal responsibility to get out of the ghetto? All I did was correct the fallacious statement, "the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto."

Go find another post to reply to with straw arguments.
 

ric1287

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2005
4,845
0
0
Originally posted by: n yusef
Why are people replying to my post, which is about how one "lands" in the ghetto, with assertions of personal responsibility to get out of the ghetto? All I did was correct the fallacious statement, "the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto."

Go find another post to reply to with straw arguments.

No, people are responding because your post was stupid. There are plenty of ways to "land" in the ghetto.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: n yusef
Why are people replying to my post, which is about how one "lands" in the ghetto, with assertions of personal responsibility to get out of the ghetto? All I did was correct the fallacious statement, "the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto."

Go find another post to reply to with straw arguments.

This right here, this attitude, this culture.

Is EXACTLY why they will never get out of the ghetto. Regardless of skin color this type of thinking is why.

Get a job, work hard, graduate, don't have kids out of wedlock or ones you can't afford, stop commiting crimes and POOF!

You're out of the ghetto.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: n yusef
Why are people replying to my post, which is about how one "lands" in the ghetto, with assertions of personal responsibility to get out of the ghetto? All I did was correct the fallacious statement, "the type of decision making and values that lands your family in the ghetto."

Go find another post to reply to with straw arguments.

This right here, this attitude, this culture.

Is EXACTLY why they will never get out of the ghetto. Regardless of skin color this type of thinking is why.

Get a job, work hard, graduate, don't have kids out of wedlock or ones you can't afford, stop commiting crimes and POOF!

You're out of the ghetto.

My ability to stay on topic is why poor black people can't get out of the ghetto? :roll:
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
@ric1287, destrekor, et al:

Do you have any experience in poor black urban neighborhoods? Even if you don't, it should be obvious that most poor black people are poor and black because their parents and grandparents are poor and black. Just like most middle class white people are middle class and white because their parents and grandparents are middle class and white. Sure, there are exceptions. You can be an addict or go bankrupt or already be poor, and if you have no support system, end up in a black ghetto. But most of the middle class has some support. If I spent all my money on drugs, my family would send me to rehab. If I lost my job, I would live with my parents. I assume this is the case for most of AnandTech Forums.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
Originally posted by: n yusef
@ric1287, destrekor, et al:

Do you have any experience in poor black urban neighborhoods? Even if you don't, it should be obvious that most poor black people are poor and black because their parents and grandparents are poor and black. Just like most middle class white people are middle class and white because their parents and grandparents are middle class and white. Sure, there are exceptions. You can be an addict or go bankrupt or already be poor, and if you have no support system, end up in a black ghetto. But most of the middle class has some support. If I spent all my money on drugs, my family would send me to rehab. If I lost my job, I would live with my parents. I assume this is the case for most of AnandTech Forums.

many asians came here lower middle class and their kids are now middle/upper-middle/upper class.

is their whole ethnicity an exception to you?
 
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