Why is my A/C not very cold?

[Saint Nick]

Also made a note to pick up a thermometer for the ducts. Is there some sort of standard I should refer to? Or should all A/Cs be pushing out 45F as EK mentioned in his post? Is there some sort of "temperature floor" that my particular A/C can only reach?

 

[Raizinman]

Also made a note to pick up a thermometer for the ducts. Is there some sort of standard I should refer to? Or should all A/Cs be pushing out 45F as EK mentioned in his post? Is there some sort of "temperature floor" that my particular A/C can only reach?

The standard is the difference between the outside temperature and the duct temperature. That is the magic number. You want this number to be as big as possible. For example: If it is a 100 degrees out side and the air coming out of your A/C is 50 degrees, your number (100 - 50 = 50) is 50. That is a GREAT number, rarely obtainable.

 

[allanon1965]

propane?!?!?!?! you are aware that this is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE! if you have a leak, it will most likely ignite, and if you have a catastrophic leak, like a hose bursting or compressor blowing apart (like the recent fords have done) it will explode under the hood with all the propane in it....this is a very bad idea....if it was a safe solution, it would be there from the manufacturer.

 

[Raizinman]

In order to have an explosion you need an ignition source. There really isn’t any under the hood. To prove this, take your unlit propane torch with the gas turned on and move it around the engine compartment. There is nothing that will cause it to ignite. Likewise, is this any more dangerous than high pressure fuel in your fuel injection? Don’t see too many fires from that, do we? Likewise, with the amount of air circulation in the engine compartment, remember the radiator fan(s) come on with the AC, any leak will be blown away very quickly.

Australia has been using propane as a refrigerant in their cars for quite some time. Guess how many fires have been reported due to propane. Zero. Duracool, a product you can purchase at auto parts stores and on the Internet has propane and butane in it.

From the Duracool Website:

FLAMMABILITY
Is DURACOOL® flammable?
Like all hydrocarbons, DURACOOL® is flammable, and must be handled accordingly. Practically all lubricants, additives and oils used in the engine of a car are flammable. Gasoline is flammable. Hair spray, deodorant and whipped cream aerosol propellants are flammable. All must be transported, handled and utilized (or installed) using safe practices and following instructions where possible.

Have there been studies to determine the potential level of incidence, in terms of ignited automobile compartment leakage?
Internationally respected risk assessors Arthur D. Little, in a detailed UK-based study, estimated the risk of an ignited refrigerant leak in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle as being in the area of 3 in 10 million. Their findings, from a local perspective, mean that if every car in the USA (some 50 to 60 million vehicles) were to use a hydrocarbon refrigerant such an accident might occur once in every 50 years.

What would the impact of and "incident level, once every 50 years" ignited automobile compartment leakage actually be?
In terms of the "impact", it is important to recognize that automobiles generally have 12-15 ounces of DURACOOL® refrigerant. If there were a full amount leak into an automobile compartment and it ignited, it would theoretically create a "flash" which would last 1-1.5 seconds.

 

[LTC8K6]

propane?!?!?!?! you are aware that this is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE! if you have a leak, it will most likely ignite, and if you have a catastrophic leak, like a hose bursting or compressor blowing apart (like the recent fords have done) it will explode under the hood with all the propane in it....this is a very bad idea....if it was a safe solution, it would be there from the manufacturer.

All those cars powered by that sort of gas must really be death traps then...

 

[5150MyU]

In order to have an explosion you need an ignition source. There really isn’t any under the hood.

Beg to differ.

 

[5150MyU]

A stemed thermometer that is calibrated (in ice water it reads 32 degrees) stuffed in a center vent with all (or only drivers) window(s) cracked less than 1/2 inch should get you about 34 to 40+ depending on your ambient temp.
So if it is 100 out don't expect it to be actually hitting the low 40's.

 

[Ferzerp]

Beg to differ.

Likely source would be the exhaust manifold. You need a little over 800K to ignite propane (~1,000 F). Hot, yes, but not outside the realm of possiblity. Sparks or flames are by no means necessary for ignition.

 

[Raizinman]

Likely source would be the exhaust manifold. You need a little over 800K to ignite propane (~1,000 F). Hot, yes, but not outside the realm of possiblity. Sparks or flames are by no means necessary for ignition.

Virtually all modern cars have exhaust shields covering the exhaust manifold. With the circulation of air under the hood, the exhaust shields dissipate heat quickly and don't get anywhere near even 400 degrees. Likewise, engine designers don't place Air conditioner hoses close to exhaust manifolds or even the exhaust shields. If an A/C hose with propane did burst it would be dissipated with the engine air and nothing would happen. That is part of the reason there has never been an engine fire from using propane. Again, the proof is in the torch. Take an unlit propane torch and turn on the gas and hold it next to your exhaust manifold. It won’t ignite. Heck, if you have used a propane torch much, you know the difficulty of lighting it with a strong spark right in front of it. Often, even with a lit match igniting the propane is difficult. Try it, I did. No need to guess or make assumptions.

Also remember the further the distance the propane must travel to a heat source, it is being dissipated with air lowering the level of the propane to air mixture. The lower and upper limits of flammability are the percentages of propane that must be present in an propane/air mixture. This means that between 2.15 and 9.6% of the total propane/air mixture must be propane in order for it to be combustible. If the mixture is 2% propane and 98% air, there will not be combustion. The more air that mixes with propane the more difficult for combustion.

 

[Ferzerp]

I didn't claim it is likely. It's just more risk than is necessary given that there are good enough other compounds that are going to satisfy 99% of the needs.

 

[allanon1965]

number one, cars pwered by propane were retrofitted or built for it. so they have the proper components for saftey. a modern ac system designed for r12 or r134a doesnt.

number two.. millions of cars have missing or rotted out heat shields. many ac hoses are routed near exhaust and hot components, they have heat resistant silver wrap around them in those areas, again, many times they are torn or removed by a careless or uniformed owner ot tech

also, there are many cars still with plug wires that will arc out as they go bad. so for me its ludicrous to use something that flammable. the gas bit is BS as the lines are designed for gas....

how many cars running around with leaks in the ac system vs leaks in the fuel system? think about that...

 

[Raizinman]

How many cars have had fuel or oil leaks and had engine fires? Just recently the Chevy Cruz has had 30 engine fires which necessitated GM to recall 475,000 of them from 2010 to 2012. Hmmm…… Let’s see, they were designed for oil and fuel, but somehow they caught fire? Honda and Acura recalled about 9,000 of their Pilots and MDX’s due to a fuel tank leak that caused some fires. Toyota recalled nearly 1.7 million cars including the Lexus IS and GS sedans for a fuel leak problem affecting 2006-2007 Lexus GS300, 2006-2009 Lexus IS, and others. This is just in the last 10 years and there are many more. It was much worse in years past with carbureted vehicles. These above cars were all engineered and designed with safety for running fuel, but somehow, they started catching on fire. How many fires are attributed to propane in an A/C system? Zero.

The propane that is regularly used for barbecues, and general consumer or commercial use is a byproduct or derivative of the hydrocarbon manufacturing process (the production and refining of raw oil products). In order to utilize propane as "refrigerant grade" the product is further refined to render out methane gases and other impurities. The Auto ignition for regular grade propane is ~842 F., while the DURACOOL® products auto ignition is ~1635 F. There is nothing under the hood of your vehicle that gets this hot. You might be interested to know that R134a ignites at 1328 F. You must also keep in mind that charging your system with Duracool, because of its nature, you only need about 40% of the normal charge. So if your system held 1.5 pounds of R134a, you would only need approximately 0.60 pound charge of Duracool. For this you get colder temperature and a more efficient air conditioner.

 

[SilthDraeth]

How many cars have had fuel or oil leaks and had engine fires? Just recently the Chevy Cruz has had 30 engine fires which necessitated GM to recall 475,000 of them from 2010 to 2012. Hmmm…… Let’s see, they were designed for oil and fuel, but somehow they caught fire? Honda and Acura recalled about 9,000 of their Pilots and MDX’s due to a fuel tank leak that caused some fires. Toyota recalled nearly 1.7 million cars including the Lexus IS and GS sedans for a fuel leak problem affecting 2006-2007 Lexus GS300, 2006-2009 Lexus IS, and others. This is just in the last 10 years and there are many more. It was much worse in years past with carbureted vehicles. These above cars were all engineered and designed with safety for running fuel, but somehow, they started catching on fire. How many fires are attributed to propane in an A/C system? Zero.

The propane that is regularly used for barbecues, and general consumer or commercial use is a byproduct or derivative of the hydrocarbon manufacturing process (the production and refining of raw oil products). In order to utilize propane as "refrigerant grade" the product is further refined to render out methane gases and other impurities. The Auto ignition for regular grade propane is ~842 F., while the DURACOOL® products auto ignition is ~1635 F. There is nothing under the hood of your vehicle that gets this hot. You might be interested to know that R134a ignites at 1328 F. You must also keep in mind that charging your system with Duracool, because of its nature, you only need about 40% of the normal charge. So if your system held 1.5 pounds of R134a, you would only need approximately 0.60 pound charge of Duracool. For this you get colder temperature and a more efficient air conditioner.

But but... I have an irrational fear of propane.

This old mechanic I used to go fishing with, (he was my neighbor) when I was a teen, he washed his overalls in a washing machine that he had converted to run on gasoline, and it filtered out the gas, and pumped it back into a holding tank. I would guess all the people with the irrational fear of propane AC would think this mechanic's clothes would spontaneously combust also.

 

[Raizinman]

No need to be afraid of propane.

Propane is a versatile energy source used by more than 14 million families in and around their homes for furnaces, water heaters, cooktops, outdoor grills, fireplaces, generators, and other appliances. Propane is helping Americans shrink their carbon footprint by providing a “green” solution for the environmentally conscious consumer. Propane delivers a clean, cost-effective, efficient and reliable energy solution.

Business owners across the country are choosing this clean-burning fuel for bus, taxi, delivery, and other fleets to minimize air pollution in metropolitan areas. Propane is also used in commercial establishments, including restaurants and hotels that depend on propane for heating, cooking, and other uses.

More than 660,000 farmers use propane for irrigation pumps, grain dryers, standby generators and other farm equipment. It is an essential fuel for crop drying, flame cultivation, fruit ripening, space and water heating and refrigeration.

 

[Ferzerp]

How many cars have had fuel or oil leaks and had engine fires? Just recently the Chevy Cruz has had 30 engine fires which necessitated GM to recall 475,000 of them from 2010 to 2012. Hmmm…… Let’s see, they were designed for oil and fuel, but somehow they caught fire? Honda and Acura recalled about 9,000 of their Pilots and MDX’s due to a fuel tank leak that caused some fires. Toyota recalled nearly 1.7 million cars including the Lexus IS and GS sedans for a fuel leak problem affecting 2006-2007 Lexus GS300, 2006-2009 Lexus IS, and others. This is just in the last 10 years and there are many more. It was much worse in years past with carbureted vehicles. These above cars were all engineered and designed with safety for running fuel, but somehow, they started catching on fire. How many fires are attributed to propane in an A/C system? Zero.

The propane that is regularly used for barbecues, and general consumer or commercial use is a byproduct or derivative of the hydrocarbon manufacturing process (the production and refining of raw oil products). In order to utilize propane as "refrigerant grade" the product is further refined to render out methane gases and other impurities. The Auto ignition for regular grade propane is ~842 F., while the DURACOOL® products auto ignition is ~1635 F. There is nothing under the hood of your vehicle that gets this hot. You might be interested to know that R134a ignites at 1328 F. You must also keep in mind that charging your system with Duracool, because of its nature, you only need about 40% of the normal charge. So if your system held 1.5 pounds of R134a, you would only need approximately 0.60 pound charge of Duracool. For this you get colder temperature and a more efficient air conditioner.

You're severely oversimplifying the chemistry to suit your argument.

You recognize you're trying to make the argument that a substance with a NFPA flammability rating of "4" (and this is fore pure propane, you're trying to make the argument that more pure propane is safer) is safer in regards to flammability than a substance with a "0" rating.

R134a does not ignite at 1328F. Sorry. It's essentially non-flammable. You're probably confusing it with a mixture of oil and r-134a where the oil burns off (and never explosively ignites), but the refrigerant still doesn't ignite. Or you're being intentionally misled.

edit: You're also ignoring the potential engine damage in case of a refrigerant dump near the intake of a running engine. (yes, I've had this happen)

 

[skyking]

having converted a couple rigs to run on propane, I find the idea of using it as a refrigerant quite interesting. Not too concerned about a runaway fueling condition based on 4 Oz or so. I have not seen a component fail and dump refrigerant out fast enough to be a hazard. The only case would be a crash that mangles the condenser.

 

[Raizinman]

R134a does not ignite at 1328F. Sorry. It's essentially non-flammable. You're probably confusing it with a mixture of oil and r-134a where the oil burns off (and never explosively ignites), but the refrigerant still doesn't ignite. Or you're being intentionally misled.

The Auto-Ignition temperature or kindling point of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. The auto ignition temperature for R134a (listed all over the Internet) is around 1328 F. Do a Google search for: auto ignition temperature R134a

 

[skyking]

I'd have to change out leaky valves, and you can dump liquid propane on the ground and put matches out in it. It will only ignite on the fringes where the percentage is right, and if there is a breeze it will not self-sustain. Mixture gets wrong.

 

[soccerballtux]

everything for colder AC.

 

[Ferzerp]

The Auto-Ignition temperature or kindling point of a substance is the lowest temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition, such as a flame or spark. The auto ignition temperature for R134a (listed all over the Internet) is around 1328 F. Do a Google search for: auto ignition temperature R134a

The EPA explains it far better than I can in the time I'm willing to spend on such a proposterous claim.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html

Specifically "This means that at atmospheric pressures and temperatures, if a can of HFC-134a is opened and a lit match is placed in front of the can, the HFC-134a will extinguish the match"

Shall we do the same with some propane? As you feel it is no more flammable than r134a, I'll allow you to demonstrate.

 

[Raizinman]

Du Pont chemical, being the manufacturer or R134a can explain it better than anyone else. According to their MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet).

“HFC-134a is not flammable in air at temperatures up to 100 deg. C (212 deg. F) at atmospheric pressure. However, mixtures of HFC-134a with high concentrations of air at elevated pressure and/or temperature can become combustible in the presence of an ignition source.”

“In general, HFC-134a should not be allowed to exist with air above atmospheric pressure or at high temperatures; or in an oxygen enriched environment.”

The bottom line is:

1) There has not been one attributable fire caused by using propane for a vehicle refrigerant.
2) Duracool (Propane) is non-global warming
3) Duracool is non-ozone depleting
4) Duracool is more efficient than R134a
5) Duracool has lower head pressures than R134a (similar to R12). R134a will often get to 300 psi pressure, whereas Duracool will rarely get to 150 psi.
6) Millions of vehicles have been converted to hydrocarbon refrigerants worldwide.
7) Duracool cools much better than R134a, and marginally better than R12.
8) Duracool is up to 35% more efficient than R134a and only marginally better than R12.
9) Duracool will make your A/C system last longer because it is non-corrosive. R134a breaks down into highly corrosive components.
10) Easy installation with simple high/low screw on fittings.
11) Compatible with mineral and synthetic oils, including PAG and Ester. No oil change is required.
12) No special tools required, you can use your R134 or R12 gauges and tools.
13) Requires only 40% of charge by weight for R134a usage and 35% of charge by weight for R12 systems.
14) Auto ignition of ~1635°F which is a higher auto ignition of R134a which is 1328°F
15) Totally non-toxic – 100% natural organic product.
16) It has been predicted by a risk assessor that, considering if all the cars in the US converted to Duracool (some 50 or 60 million vehicles) that one accident might occur every 50 years, and this accident would theoretically create a “flash” which would last 1 to 1.5 seconds.
17) Does Duracool Guarantee or Warrantee this product? Yes, with a written guarantee that Duracool will perform as efficient and will not harm any air conditioning part. Duracool does have good standing with the BBB with no complaints filed.
18) R134a is being phased out being replaced with R1234. The price of R134a will likely rise (like what happened with R12). Currently Duracool is about ½ the price of R134a. If R134a follows the same pattern like R12, the DYI cans of R134a will be first to be gone.
19) Proposterous is actually spelled preposterous.

So there you have it. Some pro’s and con’s of using propane (Duracool) in your air conditioning system. I’m not advocating that everyone should remove their R134a and put in Duracool. Some people live in cool climates and some in hot. It also depends on the person. Some people need quick and colder A/C and some don’t mind waiting a bit longer and having warmer vent temperatures. Personally, having grown up with R12, I loved switching on the A/C and having virtually instant ice cold air. I also remember being able to see my breath mist when blowing into the vent duct due to the ice cold air. Those don’t have to be memories any longer. I converted my 2005 Chrysler Town & Country to Duracool about 3 years ago and really love it. It use to take 5 or 8 minutes for the van to cool down, but by then you are already sweating. Duracool has ice cold air blowing after about 30 seconds and the van cools down comfortable in 2 to 3 minutes or less. A can of Duracool costs $8.99 and you might need two cans to charge your A/C.

Reading this thread should give you enough information on whether to convert or not to a hydrocarbon based refrigerant.

 

[allanon1965]

I only have one last comment/question on this.

if this is so good, so many benefits, why oh why isnt the manufacturer using it, why doesnt the EPA put its stamp of approval on it?

I will not accept any conspiracy theories as evidence of why its not being used...

if I didnt know better, I would think that duracool was the holy grail for mobile air conditioning....why doesnt every manufacturer use it? gotta save them a ton of cash. plus work a heck of alot better than 134A..

 

[Ferzerp]

You don't understand what you're posting. You cannot ignite R134a without extremely high pressure oxygen rich environments (where most anything will ignite) which will never be present in an engine bay (except when the refrigerant is contained, and isolated from oxygen).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEdUTwn9Vb8

You seriously are claiming that this other refrigerant (which apparently is primarily is propane), is just as safe as the material that you can do the above with.

Either you're willfully ignoring reality, or just very confused. I ask again, would you like to expose propane to a match, or squirt it in your intake in an uncontrolled manner to see what happens to your engine?

Are

 

[Ferzerp]

I only have one last comment/question on this.

if this is so good, so many benefits, why oh why isnt the manufacturer using it, why doesnt the EPA put its stamp of approval on it?

I will not accept any conspiracy theories as evidence of why its not being used...

if I didnt know better, I would think that duracool was the holy grail for mobile air conditioning....why doesnt every manufacturer use it? gotta save them a ton of cash. plus work a heck of alot better than 134A..

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

Or if that isn't clear enough:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

 

[Raizinman]

Why doesn’t an OEM vehicle manufacturer use a hydrocarbon refrigerant? That is a good question, but the answer is YES.

Australian OKA trucks come factory equipped with HyChills Hydrocarbon (propane) Refrigerant as standard factory OEM equipment. Actually this has been happening for the last 4 years (without problems). Likewise, an entire line of European-Australian built AVIA trucks, distributed by Reymer Pty Ltd. the parent company of OKA Australia also benefits from HyChill factory OEM propane refrigerant.

Just do a Google search for OKA Propane refrigerant

I don't think anyone would consider this a conspiracy theory.......