why is nforce looking like such crap?

[damac]

Im no techie but based on everything I have read nforce boards are just not delivering on the specs.

What is really happening here? Is it because all the companies haven't brought out boards yet and could possibly increase performance with bios updates?


Based on everything I read, and it being an nvidia product, I assumed when it came out it would be the board to get for a gaming machine. The integrated sound and lan really sounded kick ass.

But im not seeing anybody talk about how this onboard stuff(besides video, I would put something faster in), speeds up everything in the pc performance wise like it should.

Plus looking at a cheap live card, nic, and even geforce 2mx and another motherboard is almost the same cost as what I see nforces at right now.


I need to get a new motherboard and from what I read it seems clear nforce just isn't a good option?

So what is really going on with these things?

 

[Brazen]

I'm fairly dissapointed myself, but then I wouldn't make a judgement untill the final boards come out. I've noticed prices on pricewatch for Asus A7N266 is around 200 dollars! For that much money I think I would go with a SIS735 board and a Geforce2 TI. The sound quality is less, but you're getting much much better graphic capabilities - for the same amount of money, maybe a tad cheaper even.

 

[junkyardDawg]

n-force may be a good solution for someone wanting an intergrated board, but so far it has not lived up to all the hype that preceded it. hopefully as the chipset matures performance and stability will improve.

 

[Killrose]

Poor drivers. Now it's Nvidia's turn at the wheel.

 

[Rand]

Personally I'm baffled as to why everyone is so shocked that it's not dominating. the nForce has actually done marginally better then I expected.
nVidia has donce extremely well with graphics cards.... but that bears very little in common with integrated motherbiard chipsets in which they have but their XBox experience to draw from.

The graphics controller hasnt met up to many peoples expectation but it's performed precisely where I expected given the bandwidth available to it after the PCI/AGP/CPU has takes their share of the memory bandwidth.

The LAN capabilities has done as well as would be expected, the Audio seems to have some driver issues and a few manufcaturers have had issues with the DolbyDigital capabilities... but given it's a first try in the audio department from nVidia and a VERY ambitious first try at that... I'm not surprised there are minor issues to work out.

The chipset went through an excessive number of revision stages and there were almost constant rumours of delays, and given how ambitious the design is with the extremely large number of integrated devices it's takes a highly complex layout and careful design of traces to ensure conflicts and bandwidth contention isnt an issue... given all of that I'd imagine it's a virtual certainty that it will take mobo manufacturers a quite awhile yet until their able to perfectly tune their nForce motherboards.

The dual channel memory controller was expected to give a large performance boost, but again that was a rather unrealistic expectation by many as the Athlon on a 266MHz FSB could only really utilize one channel. The only dramatic gain from using a dual channel interface is when taking advantage of the integrated graphics controller.

Its apparent reluctance to overclock shouldnt be a great shock either, external influence to the AGP signals must be immense given everything integrated into the northbridge, and chipsets with an integrated graphics controller have long been known to be marginally less clear and stringent upon voltage deliverance through the AGP slot, so when overclocking the FSB and hence the AGP slot with an external graphics card it's not much of a surprise it wouldnt handle as high a peak overclocks.

For a first try in motherboard chipset and such an ambitious undertaking as this, nVidia has done surprisingly well IMHO and compares extremely well to the very highly tweaked memory controller created by VIA's more experienced engineers.

That's it's performing as well as it is, and apears generally stable, and and priced very decently given it's high level of integration, and the numerous difficulties encoutered during initial design nVidia has no reason to be anything but extremely proud of their accomplishments.

It's isnt a crappy chipset... it merely appears that way because it was hyped up so incredibly hard by many people who automatically it would be great simply b/c it was designed by nVidia.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm not sure that "crap" is the proper term. It's new, it's ambitious, It's aimed squarely at the OEM market, despite all the hoopla prior to release. It was never intended to be an Enthusiast-type solution. The price will drop like a stone over the next six months, & the drivers will mature, making it very appealing to outfits who buy boards a thousand at a time, and to Harry Homeowner whose Pentium 333/S3 Virge is starting to show its age....

 

[pukemon]

Actually the nForce isn't nvidia's first integrated chip. If anyone remembers way back when with the NV1, that chip (used in the Diamond Edge3D series) had video, sound, and proprietary digital game controllers all built in. The video part was DirectDraw compliant but not quite Direct3D (due to the inherent design) As far as the audio on that particular part, it only kinda sorta worked, however it should be noted that that was the world's first DirectSound compliant device made, and in essence the first consumer grade PCI sound card. (although the Ensoniq AudioPCI and Diamond Monster Sound are often better remembered)

Other useless info, the NV1 was also manufactured by SGS-Thomson (ST Micro - who make the Kyro chips these days). The NV1 was used in the original Creative 3DBlaster part minus the sound engine. (for fairly obvious reasons)

Ahh yes this is all circa-1995... boy do I feel old.

 

[Athlex]

I also found it interesting that Asus is going with a RealTek network chip instead of using the nForce's integrated NIC. Is the drive support for nVidia's part still too immature?

 

[Leokor]

<< I also found it interesting that Asus is going with a RealTek network chip instead of using the nForce's integrated NIC. Is the drive support for nVidia's part still too immature? >>



Isn't the RealTek chip exactly what nForce has for its integrated NIC?

Leo

 

[Leokor]

<< Im no techie but based on everything I have read nforce boards are just not delivering on the specs. >>



What made you think that? nForce performs on par with KT266A and better than any other Socket A chipset. That's in the benchmarks that don't reflect multitasking potential (which, I believe, is greater with nForce). Knowing nVidia's penchant for improving drivers, I expect the situation only to improve with time.

I know, some reviewers like to make sensationalist statements. A chipset with a lot of publicity is bound to also attract a lot of negative attention. Especially if the reviewers are biased toward the competitors.

Leo

 

[DAPUNISHER]

IMHO, for their first mobo entry it's a winner.

 

[chizow]

Give it time, I'm thinking nVidia was preoccupied with getting the X-Box right, they too ph33r the Wrath of Gates. Seems like it is driver/feature implementation that are the cause of its shortcomings, but the specs still point to a winner.

Chiz

 

[Athlex]

Leokor,
I was under the impression that nVidia had integrated the NIC into its southbridge the way SIS did with the 735.

 

[flexy]

nforce is NOT targeted at a performance/high-end market.

You see that clearly if you know that eg. the twinbank memory architecture (128 bit access) with about AGP 6x speed shows it's benefits only with the internal builtin graphics. But since the internal builtin graphics are a P.O.S. (gf2mx) the whole architecture is a dumb waste...why should i want to feed a crappy gf2mx with 128bit mem, 6x agp ? That's the nonsense of the millenium !

However if you want performance and put on an external agp card - the gain using 128bit memory architecture is *minimal* (around 0.2 %- 5 %)......and the faster one of the kt266A boards (say dragon plus, epox etc....) beat the nforce still in most of benchmarks.....

 

[chizow]

<< nforce is NOT targeted at a performance/high-end market. >>



Thats odd, with its hefty price tag and the interest it has generated on these "enthusiast/performance oriented" msg boards, you would think otherwise. I guess its aimed at the ignorant (OEM/Compaq/HP)-loving market? I've seen a lotta people who are interested in performance hold off upgrading b/c they are waiting for this board with the expectation that it would indeed be the performance champ it was hyped to be. If it truly is geared toward the OEM market, they should really consider dropping the prices, b/c OEMs like Compaq and HP are not going to put a $200 MSI/Asus/Abit board into their PCs when they could fab their own at much cheaper prices.

Chiz

 

[flexy]

<<

<< nforce is NOT targeted at a performance/high-end market. >>



Thats odd, with its hefty price tag and the interest it has generated on these "enthusiast/performance oriented" msg boards, you would think otherwise. I guess its aimed at the ignorant (OEM/Compaq/HP)-loving market? I've seen a lotta people who are interested in performance hold off upgrading b/c they are waiting for this board with the expectation that it would indeed be the performance champ it was hyped to be. If it truly is geared toward the OEM market, they should really consider dropping the prices, b/c OEMs like Compaq and HP are not going to put a $200 MSI/Asus/Abit board into their PCs when they could fab their own at much cheaper prices.

Chiz >>



i was waiting for it, too !! A few months actually, and i read many reviews.

Besides that what i meantioned already - i dont like what Asus did with those boards (Realtek NIC. WHY ????)...they're MUCH too expensive. And the MSI has a terrible bios. The other boards come in microATX.....no good choice between all this boards...and for less money i can have MORE performance with a good KT266A...this is a no brainer !

Edit:

And btw...i DO think that many vendors WILL put this board into their PCs (as they do already!)...because all in all it IS a 'cheap' solution for people who get all in ONE...eg. NIC, LAN, Modem, GFX..... the point is only that almost EACH of this components (except sound!) is low-tech.... (soft modem... my god....)...gf2mx400...my god.....and if someone only "wants a computer with everything"...and doesnt give a damn about the perf/quality of each component i can imagine they might be satisfied with nforce.

I am not..since for my config (external agp) i can have better bang elsewhere.....and as said...the heck knows why asus doesnt even use the nforce NIC....

 

[damac]

I guess thats why I say im a non techie. I read nvidias sale pitch and saw the same system with the geforce 2 card should be slower than the nforce.

but I also get the impression that it would be the board for the fastest athlon systems this year and at a price advantage over another board, nic, and sound card.

And then I could pop in the fastest graphics card and benefit from their integrated stuff which is still supposed to cut down on cpu time, thus meaning faster games. Thats the part I don't get. Is it just early? Can they release bios upgrades to increase performance? windows drivers also? Or did I miss something and is the hype really just that and you won't gain anything with the integrated stuff over any other board, pci nic, and creative labs sound card? If thats true than that really sucks and it sounds like poor implementation to me. You would think they could speed stuff up with all their own parts vs. all the junk and bloat that goes into a regular pc.

I was strictly looking to get the fastest performing board with that integrated stuff this year, with the fastest video card and athlon card to make the ultimate gaming rig for a year til I upgrade again.

 

[flexy]

<< I guess thats why I say im a non techie. I read nvidias sale pitch and saw the same system with the geforce 2 card should be slower than the nforce.

but I also get the impression that it would be the board for the fastest athlon systems this year and at a price advantage over another board, nic, and sound card.

And then I could pop in the fastest graphics card and benefit from their integrated stuff which is still supposed to cut down on cpu time, thus meaning faster games. Thats the part I don't get. Is it just early? Can they release bios upgrades to increase performance? windows drivers also? Or did I miss something and is the hype really just that and you won't gain anything with the integrated stuff over any other board, pci nic, and creative labs sound card? If thats true than that really sucks and it sounds like poor implementation to me. You would think they could speed stuff up with all their own parts vs. all the junk and bloat that goes into a regular pc.

I was strictly looking to get the fastest performing board with that integrated stuff this year, with the fastest video card and athlon card to make the ultimate gaming rig for a year til I upgrade again. >>



i dont want to say that nforce is a slow or a bad board.

But there is NO gain (even the opposite is the case) in performance over the fast kt266a boards if you use external components like a high end gfx-card.
The performance is (say) either on par...sometimes a bit less..sometimes a bit more - but far from superior (which some could believe who read all the hyped reviews of the nforce)

There might be some good things to the nforce however - eg the nforce sound solution is said to be very good. However, this also depends on what features are implemented in the drivers. I dont know what features the chipset drivers (for sound) already support....eg. EAX or similiar which you can also have with an audigy soundcard for example.

I also dont know what room is there still to squeeze out performance w/ updated drivers...may be the case...very likely indeed. (Unlikely that new drivers would get slower with each release

As for 'cut down cpu time'...right...i thought that too. The reality is, that i have never ever eg. heard someone mentioning the internal (modem)....which could've saved me $20 for a modem. As it turns out....it is a 'soft' modem...i dont even know if the drivers support it [yet]....so i have no big expectations...i dont even know if the modem WORKS right now.

Asus uses a Realtek networking chip instead of the nforce onboard solution - there are rumours there might've been problems with the nforce LAN....i dont know. Anyway if you get an asus board you dont get the nforce LAN..which is totally odd and immediatelthrew me off. Besides of that the asus boards are hell expensive. The 'cheaper' asus board even uses a CMI soundchip (also NOT the nforce sound !!!) - the same soundchip eg. the soyo dragon+ and some other boards use. It's not a bad sound chip ...but its no difference to the other boards... and all that makes you really wonder what's the purpose of the whole nforce anyway

 

[kan3]

this could be me but any intergrated chipset with vid/sound/lan that can play q3a outta the box with 1024x768 and get 50fps is good in my book

only thing around are the crappy sis/intel all in one solutions for low level economy users
now at atleast someone has something decent out that could be used to play all games atleast in 800x600

 

[DefRef]

I was eagerly awaiting the nForce boards for all the usual reasons, but not that the initial ones are here, I have to say that I'm disappointed. I don't think they're crap by a long shot, just that they aren't quite there yet. ASUS' messing with the sound and LAN only adds to the frustration. Wht are they doing plunking RealTEK and C-media stuff on where it shouldn't be needed?

Also, the prices are substantially higher than predicted, causing the integrated vs. seperate components price advantage to become moot. Since I'm gonna put a GF3Ti2C on whatever board I get, the cost of integrated video becomes a liability.

Since I also need the ability to attach 7 IDE devices, I'm looking hard at the Soyo Dragon+ for the move. It just fits my requirements better.

 

[Athlex]

Something else that raises questions in my mind is the performance of the dual channel RAM. While the Athlon can't really use the added bandwidth of dual-channel memory, the video core must love it. Thing is, one review I read (forget where, I'll post a link when I find it) showed that video performance was actually slowed when in 2 channel mode... Hopefully that's just a driver thing, but seemed rather odd.

 

[gaidin123]

Athlex,

I remember reading that review too. So you're not crazy or anything. It did show the dual channel underperforming the single channel on the nForce board...but I'm guessing that article was an exception and not the rule (hopefully).

If you look at the nForce chipset it obviously has a LOT of potential. It seems that either the chipset or the motherboard makers or both haven't quite hit the nail on the head with these early nForce boards. Why on Earth would Asus use a Realtek NIC and a C-media controller on a board who's chipset already contains a supposedly great sound processor and at least a reasonable NIC? Well we could also argue that the Via chipsets have had an integrated NIC that almost no one takes advantage of. Take a look at Soyo's Dragon+ board...It seems to be one of the few that actually uses the Via ethernet controller. Either the chipset has issues or the motherboard makers were cutting corners and using proven solutions for their boards rather than going with something new (ie Asus again uses that same Realtek controller on many of their motherboards).

nForce's added bandwidth will be very beneficial in multi-processor systems. SMP systems and faster FSB systems seem to be the only place where we'll see that extra bandwidth go to good use (assuming you're not using the onboard video).

Gaidin

 

[AGodspeed]

Before anyone else comments, read Rand's post, it's very realistic and right on the money if you ask me.

If it truly is geared toward the OEM market, they should really consider dropping the prices, b/c OEMs like Compaq and HP are not going to put a $200 MSI/Asus/Abit board into their PCs when they could fab their own at much cheaper prices.

In this case, I would have to disagree with you. Here are my 3 main reasons:

1. Nvidia has already got MicronPC to use nForce in their systems. Not only is MicronPC using nForce, they're actually using the more expensive nForce 420 chipset, and not the cheaper single channel nForce 220 chipset. Even without MicronPC, Nvidia's solution for the OEM market is starting to look good. OEMs Compaq and HP are considering using nForce, and Fujitsu has already committed to nForce (in fact, just today, HP was rather annoyed with nForce, saying they don't have enough of them to satisfy HP's desktop market share. Even though that's not a good thing, it's still good that HP is certainly likely to use nForce, or has already committed).

2. Just because nForce sells for a somewhat hefty price tag on pricewatch, doesn't mean Nvidia sells it for that exact same price to OEMs. It's a well known fact that companies (in this case, Nvidia) discount their products (compared to retail channel products that we buy) when some other company buys that product in mass quantities.

3. OEMs only deal with certain motherboard makers, and Nvidia has the cream of the crop in this arena. ASUS, Gigabyte, MSI, Abit, etc. are basically THE motherboard makers that OEMs prefer (ECS also, but their market share is mainly based in non-domestic territories I believe).

Now if only Dell would use nForce. That would certainly be a sweat combo with a 1900+ processor.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

nForce would be all that and a bag of chips if it shipped with better video. When it was announced, the GF2MX onboard seemed pretty cool. Now with the GF3 Ti500 and the Radeon 8500 out there, the onboard video is a really expensive non-option for many of us enthusiasts.

It is also not a great option for integrators either... the price point is way too high on it right now to justify the increased cost.

The onboard video comes at too high of a cost for performance enthusiasts to really go for. You can get a KT266A that performs similarly with a GF2 Ti card for about the same cost as an nForce mobo. I realize you are not getting the sexy-fine 5.1 audio, but you can pur an SB Live! 5.1 and be perfectly for now.

When nVidia releases the next version with a GF3 core, that should be a more compelling product.

 

[sprockkets]

It is also not a great option for integrators either... the price point is way too high on it right now to justify the increased cost.

Well let's see, a MSI nForce board is $180, or you can buy the KT266 Pro 2 for $120 plus $40 for a Soundblaster 5.1 card and $15 for a NIC and $60 for a Gf mx200 w/tv out, which comes to $235. Which is cheaper to you?

Also you avoid the same ole s--- when you try to work in added peripherals. Haven't you heard "Have you tried all the PCI slots? Did you reseat the AGP card? IRQ conflict? Is this board stable with such and such?"

I'm ready to build one this week. And for that person about the Soyo board, better read the threads around that board, the RAID controller works in RAID only mode, most have problems with booting and so on. Not saying that the MSI nForce board won't have problems of its own, but when you keep it simple and integrated, the less problems you have. At least as with most MSI boards the system will shutdown at a set temperature.

Also there is no issue at all with the NIC of the nForce, it's just that Asus put it on to satisfy it's customers (from an article in Anandtech). And it's quite messed up that they did what they did with the CMedia chip.
I also wished Anand went into detail with MSI's upcoming uATX nForce boards (it's on their online showroom). It's the same board but smaller.

For all you people out there I will start a thread sometime here. Boards have already sold out at Directron.com but are on backorder for the 12.15.01.

Oh and also about the nic issue. Most people think that the Soyo Dragon uses the nic in the via southbridge, but one site focused in on a little chip near the top left of the board that is a ethernet adapter from ICS. Also, most boards don't have that "ite" chip on VIA motherboards cause the super i/o functions are built into the via southbridge, they are only necessary on other brands of chipsets. But, why does the Soyo Dragon use it?

I guess in a way it's cheaper to just have the i/o near the ports, but is it so hard to route a nic from point a to b? Otherwise you have to use a external chip, which needs it's own power traces, access to the pci bus, then connect to the actual port.