Why is prostitution immoral?

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
In my experience, this is simply not true. Yes, you will find self-proclaimed feminists who argue that prostitution is exploitation, and yes, Craig's view is narrow-minded and based on a bizarre interpretation of morality. But to say that feminism is opposed to "sex trades" is incorrect. Most modern feminists are opposed to the exploitation that occurs within these trades, not the trades themselves. And the exploitation tends to occur because conservative morality (not politically conservative, more like "traditional values" conservative) makes these trades either seem seedy (stripping or pornography) or illegal (prostitution). There is a strong push from feminists to rebrand these trades to let women know that it is OK to exert one's sexuality and not have it be "immoral."

Throughout this thread, I have been talking about anti-porn, anti (hetero) sex feminists, like Andrea Dworkin. I'm not talking about "pro sex feminism" which is actually a somewhat more recent phenomena. So we may not be disagreeing here. I'm simply critiquing an aspect of feminism, not all of it.

When I was in school, I was heavily involved in the gender studies department, including their annual symposium. We had more than one panel every year related to the sex trades (stripping, pornography, prostitution and the like), and not once did you hear people claiming that women shouldn't do these things. People were interested in reforming the industries, not to try to prevent women from expressing their sexuality for money, but in order to make the professions safer for those involved. Almost uniformly, women were actually encouraged to participate in activities like stripping as a way to combat body dysmorphia and other self-perception issues. So, no, feminists aren't merely sexual moralists of another cloth trying to prevent women from expressing or using their sexuality; they're doing just the opposite.

Do I really need to link you feminist literature that is opposed to the idea of all sex trades as inherently exploitative of women and therefore beyond reform? Do you actually not know that this school of thought exists?

Personally, I think prostitution should be legalized. It would make it a lot safer. Look at Nevada; they have legal prostitution in the form of brothels and the women who work in them are protected and seem pretty content with what they do. HBO does all those documentaries/reality shows in the brothels and the women seem to wield most of the power (with the exception of that weird "daddy" dynamic towards the owner, but whatever gets you off I guess). Legal prostitution actually empowers women because it takes away the abusive brutality of the pimp. But good luck finding law-makers who are willing to argue to legalize prostitution; most people visualize prostitution as being the pimps and streetwalkers, not the Bunny Ranch variety. And that's a shame

I agree. Prostitution could be cleaned up a lot if it was legalized. Porn OTOH doesn't need much cleaning up. What I have seen of the industry and its participants isn't that concerning.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Some women enjoy having sex with multiple partners in their private lives. How do I know this?
I'm not arguing this. My issue is that prostitutes aren't selective (beyond money) and if someone is doing something for pleasure, they are usually selective about it. Therefore, I don't really buy the argument that prostitutes do it for fun.

And frankly, I don't understand how anyone else not religious would act as if they are, other than the fact that social liberals are products of the same religiously conservative society as everyone else, and in some cases they may be consciously unaware of their true motives.
Do you really think everyone in this thread and anti-prostitution are just repressing religious tendencies? I'm disappointed if that's the case because in the past you've understood that not all people opposing illegal immigration are secretly xenophobic for example.

I don't know the answer to these questions, as I am not acquainted with a large number of people in those professions. What I do know is that you're trying to shift the burden of proof here.

On the question of proof, let's be logical here. In the absence of proof to the contrary, there is no reason to assume that a typical porn actress is any more likely to have been abused than a random woman from the general population. A burden of proof must be met to establish otherwise. Anecdotes, intuition, and theory don't count.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8916528?dopt=Abstract

Early childhood abuse and/or neglect was a significant predictor of prostitution for females (odds ratio [OR] = 2.96). For females, sexual abuse (OR = 2.54) and neglect (OR = 2.58) were associated with prostitution, whereas physical abuse was only marginally associated. Childhood abuse and neglect were not associated with increased risk for promiscuity or teenage pregnancy.
How do you like them apples? This fits in exactly with what I'm saying. And the part about not being related to promiscuity makes perfect sense and reflects the argument that I'm making that you don't seem to understand. Women who enjoy having sex aren't doing it in the context of prostitution. They may be promiscuous and they may have multiple partners, but if anything it's going to be the hot guy at the club, a guy at work, but not some slob who has to pay for it. And there is other data out there I don't feel like cutting and pasting.

And let's even assume this study didn't exist, I still take issue with your attitude towards the evidence. People are allowed to make decisions based on personal experience. Especially given that this is politics / ethics and not a court case. An example: if I take the position that human beings have a natural tendency to act in their own self interest and I don't have a link to a psychological study proving the point, you saying that it's based on anecdotes and lack of evidence is silly. I can't remember every single time I've seen someone act selfishly, but I know it's happened over my entire lifetime.

Granted the issue here is more specific but based on my life interacting with women, my experience is that women who engage in risky sexual behavior seem to have psychological issues. The ones who have no standards seem to have psychological issues. I'm not saying sorority girls don't like sex. They do. They may have one night stands. They may screw two other women at the same time. But they don't do it for money. They choose their partners.

So, even if we lacked statistical data, I don't see why the burden would be on me. The burden is just as much on you to support your belief that women are naturally inclined to engage in fairly extreme behavior. I find it similar to someone saying that people life food and therefore people like eating out of dumpsters and will be happy to do it if you pay them to.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
I'm not arguing this. My issue is that prostitutes aren't selective (beyond money) and if someone is doing something for pleasure, they are usually selective about it. Therefore, I don't really buy the argument that prostitutes do it for fun.

OK, you're playing the straw man game here. I didn't say they did it for fun. I said many enjoy sex in their private lives and that they then decide to do it for money, and in that context, they merely tolerate it. In fact, I have said that twice now. To be clear: the fact that they enjoy sex in their private lives removes many of the hangups that would otherwise prevent them from taking advantage of the economic opportunity to profit from sex. It doesn't mean they have lots of fun in the actual practice of the trade. I don't have much fun in my job either. I do it for money.

Do you really think everyone in this thread and anti-prostitution are just repressing religious tendencies? I'm disappointed if that's the case because in the past you've understood that not all people opposing illegal immigration are secretly xenophobic for example.

Didn't say that either. I'll repeat myself only once in case the point is unclear. It isn't repressed religiosity. The motive is the same whether the belief system is religious or secular: supporting the existing patriarchal power structure. That idea is ingrained for many men in our society, and it may come out through the mechanism of religion or some other paradigm.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8916528?dopt=Abstract


How do you like them apples? This fits in exactly with what I'm saying. And the part about not being related to promiscuity makes perfect sense and reflects the argument that I'm making that you don't seem to understand. Women who enjoy having sex aren't doing it in the context of prostitution. They may be promiscuous and they may have multiple partners, but if anything it's going to be the hot guy at the club, a guy at work, but not some slob who has to pay for it. And there is other data out there I don't feel like cutting and pasting.

And let's even assume this study didn't exist, I still take issue with your attitude towards the evidence. People are allowed to make decisions based on personal experience. Especially given that this is politics / ethics and not a court case. An example: if I take the position that human beings have a natural tendency to act in their own self interest and I don't have a link to a psychological study proving the point, you saying that it's based on anecdotes and lack of evidence is silly. I can't remember every single time I've seen someone act selfishly, but I know it's happened over my entire lifetime.

Granted the issue here is more specific but based on my life interacting with women, my experience is that women who engage in risky sexual behavior seem to have psychological issues. The ones who have no standards seem to have psychological issues. I'm not saying sorority girls don't like sex. They do. They may have one night stands. They may screw two other women at the same time. But they don't do it for money. They choose their partners.

So, even if we lacked statistical data, I don't see why the burden would be on me. The burden is just as much on you to support your belief that women are naturally inclined to engage in fairly extreme behavior. I find it similar to someone saying that people life food and therefore people like eating out of dumpsters and will be happy to do it if you pay them to.

Couple points in response here. First, my challenge for evidence was with respect to porn, not prostitution. Re-read what I previously wrote. I purposefully did not issue the challenge for prostitution because, although I had not read this study, I am generally aware that some research says that childhood abuse is somewhat predictive of prostitution.

Second, the study's conclusion is: if A, then more likely B. It isn't: if B, then A. Yet that is the conclusion that you're leaping to here. My problem is not with the notion that some women enter prostitution because they were abused. It is with the notion that no woman would ever enter prostitution if she wasn't abused. That notion denies the autonomous choice being made by many women. I'm simply saying that some women like to have sex, lots of it, and when you combine that with the economic opportunity to make money off of it, you end up with women entering the sex trades. Sure, some enter it for dubious reasons. Street prostitutes in bad neighborhoods are more likely trying to get drug money then, say, high priced call girls, for example. It's denying that women can enjoy sex for pure physical gratification, and hence denying them the economic choice that is sometimes made as a result, that I take issue with.

A woman wasn't necessarily abused or corrupted by Satan because she is a prostitute, pornstar or stripper. And furthermore, the notion that women cannot make their own choices, that they are being controlled by men in some way or another, is chauvinistic. That is all I'm saying. You appear to disagree, but again have no cited evidence to support such an extraordinary claim, if indeed that is your claim. I'm having a hard time discerning it at this point.

As for proof, yes, this is a very specific factual allegation that is in dispute. I'm not asking if you can prove that water is wet, or that humans are inherently egotistical. I think proof is generally a good idea.

- wolf
 
Last edited:

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Let's just put this here for easy reference:

Yet if you examine the left/feminist arguments, you find the same sort of paternalistic chauvinism that you find with traditional religious morality. The idea that women are "coerced or exploited" is based on the assumption that a woman would never freely choose to be sexually open. Only men can do that. In traditional morality, a woman who is sexually free is a sinner and a whore, corrupted by Satan. With feminism, she is a victim of male aggression, from the pornographer, the John, or some other abuser. In neither is it acknowledghed that she may be a fully automous actor, capable of making her own decisions, and, gasp, either enjoys or does not mind having sex with multiple partners. If a woman is overtly sexual, she must have been corrupted, either by Satan or the Evil Male Abuser.

the fact that they enjoy sex in their private lives removes many of the hangups that would otherwise prevent them from taking advantage of the economic opportunity to profit from sex.
I understand what you're arguing, but do you have any statistics to back that up? Seriously though, this is like saying I like saying I like to eat food so therefore it's going to make it easier to tolerate eating out of a dumpster. I mean sure I guess you could be eating pine cones instead of rotting hamburger meat, but is it really relevant at that point? Pleasure has nothing to do with it. And looking at your original point, it sounded pretty clear that you were suggesting they did enjoy it, and not just that it made it more tolerable.

The motive is the same whether the belief system is religious or secular: supporting the existing patriarchal power structure. That idea is ingrained for many men in our society, and it may come out through the mechanism of religion or some other paradigm.
Still sounds like you're blaming things on hidden motives when I think there's some pretty rational arguments out there. As long as you're taking posters positions at face value I won't complain about it anymore.

Second, the study's conclusion is: if A, then more likely B. It isn't: if B, then A. Yet that is the conclusion that you're leaping to here. My problem is not with the notion that some women enter prostitution because they were abused. It is with the notion that no woman would ever enter prostitution if she wasn't abused. That notion denies the autonomous choice being made by many women.
Now you're the one play the straw man game, aren't you? I haven't read every single piece of feminist literature out there but I suspect that's not necessarily their position. It certainly isn't mine. We're talking about probabilities here. This is a public policy issue.

If I argue medical doctors should be licensed, I'm not necessarily saying that someone who isn't licensed couldn't cure a patient. I'm just saying that a system in which we license doctors prevents situations in which incompetent people try to heal.

Similarly here, the general idea is obviously that the vast majority prostitutes are not making genuinely free decisions. You act like they are recent college grads making an intellectual decision to become a vegan or something. It's at the other extreme. They are more likely to be desperate and damaged.

I'm simply saying that some women like to have sex, lots of it, and when you combine that with the economic opportunity to make money off of it, you end up with women entering the sex trades.
There you go connecting the pleasure aspect again. This is your weakest position. I can buy that someone might clean shit from toilets because they have no other choice but to say that the fact that they enjoy exercise makes it more tolerable is ridiculously tangential at best and insulting at worst considering I think in actuality it's horrible for them.

A woman wasn't necessarily abused or corrupted by Satan because she is a prostitute, pornstar or stripper. That is all I'm saying.
No, there's only a really good chance she was abused. Fair enough I guess. From the general tone of your original post and the things you are still saying about the connection between pleasure and prostitution, it sounds like you think it's fairly common for her to make a rational free decision to become a prostitute. Do you?

You appear to disagree, but again have no cited evidence to support such an extraordinary claim, if indeed that is your claim. I'm having a hard time discerning it at this point.
I didn't say it's impossible to make a free decision to enter prostitution, however that would be extraordinary (uncommon in other words) and I haven't seen you give any evidence for a case like that. To me, it's like saying that an attractive straight young man with other career opportunities could choose to whore himself out to gay johns because it could make a lot of money. (And I choose to add the homosexual aspect here to stress the fact that it wouldn't be enjoyable to the man, which is something that can be hard for straight men to imagine when thinking of sex.) Sure, it's possible, but have you ever met a man who would really make a decision like that in the end? I haven't.

So we seem to agree that the data shows that most prostitutes are damaged. The lack of data about the remaining prostitutes doesn't prove they're freely choosing by the way. We only know that they're not prostitutes simply because of abuse. Given the addiction issue I would suspect that might account for many more. And finally, you have to admit that many people are not going to admit to be damaged goods. People have protection mechanisms. It's easier on the ego to say you have insatiable sex needs than to say you were abused by your uncle and had been so disadvantaged that you can't make it in another field.

And while I'm not saying I can prove it's impossible for someone to freely choose to be a prostitute, I think it's fair to say it would be an extraordinary situation. If you were trying to change policy with your arguments, you would want to prove this happens with at least some frequency right? I think it's your turn to give some actual evidence that prostitutes are making free choices.

Otherwise, the anti-prostitution feminists have a strong position as far as I can see it. Prostitution is largely about exploitation of troubled people. We should help them and not act like Republicans act on so many other issues and say this is a result of bad / good decisions. Again, I don't think it's paternalistic to help homeless people and if it is, so be it.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Funny, though, even in that red light district, most of the prostitues are foreign women from places like Africa, being exploited, not an idealic 'free people exchanging'.

You've never been to the Red Light have you?
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Do I really need to link you feminist literature that is opposed to the idea of all sex trades as inherently exploitative of women and therefore beyond reform? Do you actually not know that this school of thought exists?

No, I mentioned that I know of self-proclaimed feminists who espouse that view. I was merely pointing out that the trend within the feminist community seems to be a greater acceptance of expressive female sexuality and the idea that women can be involved in the sex trades without it being exploitative. Andrea Dworkin was an extremist in every sense of the word, and her brand of radical feminism is hardly representative of most modern feminism. I mean, Jesus God, the woman said "all sex is rape;" that's hardly a progressive stance to take on women's sexuality.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
No, I mentioned that I know of self-proclaimed feminists who espouse that view. I was merely pointing out that the trend within the feminist community seems to be a greater acceptance of expressive female sexuality and the idea that women can be involved in the sex trades without it being exploitative. Andrea Dworkin was an extremist in every sense of the word, and her brand of radical feminism is hardly representative of most modern feminism. I mean, Jesus God, the woman said "all sex is rape;" that's hardly a progressive stance to take on women's sexuality.

Yeah I think we understand each other on the point. I would only point out that Dworkin's views were fairly mainstream in feminism in the 1970's and 1980's. Hers were a bit more extreme that the typical. But other feminists like McKinnon were essentially in line with her general attitude. What they called "pro-sex feminism" started to emerge in the 1980's. It has become more common since.

- wolf
 

Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,997
20
81
Because the government doesn't get it's cut.

rofl... good one..

Prostitution is looked down upon because it involves several aspects of coercion, subjugation, and lust. It objectifies women and in actuality increases violence towards them.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
I understand what you're arguing, but do you have any statistics to back that up? Seriously though, this is like saying I like saying I like to eat food so therefore it's going to make it easier to tolerate eating out of a dumpster. I mean sure I guess you could be eating pine cones instead of rotting hamburger meat, but is it really relevant at that point? Pleasure has nothing to do with it. And looking at your original point, it sounded pretty clear that you were suggesting they did enjoy it, and not just that it made it more tolerable.

Yes, my evidence for it is dozens of interviews, blogs, forum posts, autobiographies, and other statements by female pornstars about their past sexual histories and the circumstances of their entrance into the business and the reasons they did it. The majority say they were promiscuous in high school. Typically they lost their virginity anywhere from 13-16 years of age. They generally claim that they enjoyed the sex. When they reached the age of majority, they decided that since they weren't hung up about sex, and they could make a lot of money at it, then why not? That is more or less a typical story. As a test for the overall reliability of these statements, I would point out that the vast majority admit that they rarely, if ever, orgasm while shooting a scene. Though they do in their private lives.

Now you're the one play the straw man game, aren't you? I haven't read every single piece of feminist literature out there but I suspect that's not necessarily their position. It certainly isn't mine. We're talking about probabilities here. This is a public policy issue.

Suffice it to say that there is a marked tendency in anti-porn/prostitution feminist literature to assume that if a woman has entered a sex trade, she must be damaged goods or coerced in some way. They generally don't explicitly deny the autonomy or the choice, but they do feel the need to find a sinister reason for their circumstances, even if they have to strain to do it. For example, one male anti-porn feminist writer strains to find evidence of such damage in Jenna Jameson's autobiography, noting that she admits to having snorted cocaine when she was 16. Apparently that was all he could find, but I it was enough for him. Guess what, she made over $100 million in the porn industry, so she's laughing at him all the way to the bank.

If I argue medical doctors should be licensed, I'm not necessarily saying that someone who isn't licensed couldn't cure a patient. I'm just saying that a system in which we license doctors prevents situations in which incompetent people try to heal.

Similarly here, the general idea is obviously that the vast majority prostitutes are not making genuinely free decisions. You act like they are recent college grads making an intellectual decision to become a vegan or something. It's at the other extreme. They are more likely to be desperate and damaged.

I don't think you can prove "vast majority." Neither of us has those statistics. You need a study that starts with a valid sample of prostitutes and works backward, which your study does not do.

The fact is, many prostitutes, particularly expensive escorts, are college students trying to work their way through school. Economic need is certainly a major factor in it but the choice made is a free one. They could have taken a crappy job for less money. There is no reason to assume that would have been the better option.

The street walkers in inner cities are certainly another thing. It is for them that we really need to legalize it because their circumstances are not safe. That's what happens when you relegate an activity to the black market. Just like with coat hanger abortions.

There you go connecting the pleasure aspect again. This is your weakest position. I can buy that someone might clean shit from toilets because they have no other choice but to say that the fact that they enjoy exercise makes it more tolerable is ridiculously tangential at best and insulting at worst considering I think in actuality it's horrible for them.

It isn't a weak part of my argument. That men deny that many women enjoy sex for raw physical gratification is extremely chauvinistic. And you have no evidence that it is "horrible for them." You are getting that from watching too many episodes of Law & Order: SVU or who knows what else. Read interviews and statements by prostitutes. On the whole, they just consider it a job, nothing more, nothing less. And I know that at least in the case of porn, many enjoyed sex before entering the business, and that is why they considered it an option. They felt that sex was OK and that there was nothing wrong with being paid to do it. That said, it's likely true that assessments would vary depending on where they are in that business. Where it is safe, clean and legal they are less likely to have bad experiences.

No, there's only a really good chance she was abused. Fair enough I guess. From the general tone of your original post and the things you are still saying about the connection between pleasure and prostitution, it sounds like you think it's fairly common for her to make a rational free decision to become a prostitute. Do you?

For porn, absolutely yes, in the vast majority of cases. For prostitution, I think it depends on the geography, legality and socio-economic background. You're ignoring the entire escort business and basing your conclusions on the stereotypical street walker who turns tricks for crack money and gets beaten up by her pimp.

I didn't say it's impossible to make a free decision to enter prostitution, however that would be extraordinary (uncommon in other words) and I haven't seen you give any evidence for a case like that. To me, it's like saying that an attractive straight young man with other career opportunities could choose to whore himself out to gay johns because it could make a lot of money. (And I choose to add the homosexual aspect here to stress the fact that it wouldn't be enjoyable to the man, which is something that can be hard for straight men to imagine when thinking of sex.) Sure, it's possible, but have you ever met a man who would really make a decision like that in the end? I haven't.

Bad analogy. Straight men tend to be very, very hungup about male homosexuality. The thought of it is horrifying to a straight man (oddly enough, it isn't as much the case for straight women who might experiment with lesbian sex even if they generally prefer men.) I don't think a prostitute would have that kind of negative reaction to having sex with an unattractive man. If they were promiscuous before they became prostitutes, they're already used to frequent sex. To varying degrees, they just tune it out.

So we seem to agree that the data shows that most prostitutes are damaged.

Your data shows nothing of the sort. That was exactly my point. It shows that if a woman is abused, she has a higher than average chance of becoming a prostitute. It doesn't show what percentage of prostitutes were abused. It doesn't even imply much about it. If you think about that carefully, you'll understand the distinction I'm making here.

Let's say that the on average, 1 in 100 women become prostitutes, whereas in the subset who were abused, it's 4 in 100, or 4 times the likelihood. That is a very statistically significant for your study, but what does it say about the percentage of prostitutes who were abused? Not much. Even if it's 30 out of 100, we still don't know what percentage of prostitutes were abused, only what percentage of the abused became prostitutes.

And while I'm not saying I can prove it's impossible for someone to freely choose to be a prostitute, I think it's fair to say it would be an extraordinary situation. If you were trying to change policy with your arguments, you would want to prove this happens with at least some frequency right? I think it's your turn to give some actual evidence that prostitutes are making free choices.

My default assumption is that when someone engages in an activity, especially when they're getting paid for it, that it was their choice. Unless I see evidence to the contrary. "Free choice" is a slippery concept though. In most cases they get into it because they need the money. In that sense, virtually no one works any job out of "free choice." But yes, I think if they find themselves in a situation where they need money and they choose prostitution because it pays way better than working at Walmart, then that was their choice. How many were "forced" into it by some pimp who drugged them, I do not know. It certainly isn't all of them, and in the bloc of high paid escorts, it's probably almost none of them. Those girls make a crapton of money turning tricks, sometimes $500 a pop or better. Pornstars who go into the escort business after establishing themselves in porn can take in $2K for one trick because people will pay that much to boink their favorite pornstar. You better believe they are doing it because they want to.

Otherwise, the anti-prostitution feminists have a strong position as far as I can see it. Prostitution is largely about exploitation of troubled people. We should help them and not act like Republicans act on so many other issues and say this is a result of bad / good decisions. Again, I don't think it's paternalistic to help homeless people and if it is, so be it.

Yes, we should help the ones who are in bad circumstances by legalizing it and making it safe. For the ones that want out of the business entirely, we may or may not be able to afford them other job opportunities. Government can only do so much. As for the ones who are in it because they make lots of money, they should be left alone and not judged. Given the lengths that various people go to to make money in this society, who are we to judge them? At least they are only f**king people for money, instead of f**king people over for money.

But it's sex, right, so there has to be something wrong with it. In this society, it's always sex. Sex that gets censored, not violence. Sex that is condemned if not for one reason, then another. We are good at coming up with new justifications for it, that's for sure.

- wolf
 
Last edited:

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Yes, my evidence for it is dozens of interviews, blogs, forum posts, autobiographies, and other statements by female pornstars about their past sexual histories and the circumstances of their entrance into the business and the reasons they did it.
This topic is about prostitutes though... but if you really want to talk about porn stars...

For example, one male anti-porn feminist writer strains to find evidence of such damage in Jenna Jameson's autobiography, noting that she admits to having snorted cocaine when she was 16. Apparently that was all he could find, but I it was enough for him. Guess what, she made over $100 million in the porn industry, so she's laughing at him all the way to the bank.

Yeah?

Jameson writes in her autobiography that in October 1990, when she was 16 years old and while the family was living on a cattle ranch in Fromberg, Montana, she was beaten with rocks and gang raped by four boys after a football game at Fromberg High School.[16] The incident began after she attempted to hitchhike home, and that she entered the car of the four boys while believing that she would be driven to her home.[16] She reported being raped a second time while still 16, by "Preacher," her boyfriend Jack's biker uncle.[16] Preacher has denied the rape ever occurred.[18] Rather than tell her father, she left home and moved in with Jack in her first serious relationship.[4][19]

I don't think you can prove "vast majority." Neither of us has those statistics. You need a study that starts with a valid sample of prostitutes and works backward, which your study does not do.

http://crime.about.com/od/prostitution/a/prostitution.htm

Estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65 percent to 90 percent. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 found that: 85 percent of their prostitute clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood while 70 percent reported incest.

The fact is, many prostitutes, particularly expensive escorts, are college students trying to work their way through school. Economic need is certainly a major factor in it but the choice made is a free one. They could have taken a crappy job for less money. There is no reason to assume that would have been the better option.
"The fact is"? You're talking about validity of samples but then you just throw out that description of the escort market without evidence? Give me a break.

It isn't a weak part of my argument. That men deny that many women enjoy sex for raw physical gratification is extremely chauvinistic. And you have no evidence that it is "horrible for them." You are getting that from watching too many episodes of Law & Order: SVU or who knows what else. Read interviews and statements by prostitutes. On the whole, they just consider it a job, nothing more, nothing less. And I know that at least in the case of porn, many enjoyed sex before entering the business, and that is why they considered it an option. They felt that sex was OK and that there was nothing wrong with being paid to do it. That said, it's likely true that assessments would vary depending on where they are in that business. Where it is safe, clean and legal they are less likely to have bad experiences.
Again? I'm not denying that woman get pleasure from sex. I'm saying they don't get pleasure from sex with men they're not attracted to. I'm getting my opinions from SVU? I like how you think you're completely unsubstantiated opinions are more legitimate though. Again, I haven't seen one link to a study from you and I've given you two now.

Bad analogy. Straight men tend to be very, very hungup about male homosexuality. The thought of it is horrifying to a straight man (oddly enough, it isn't as much the case for straight women who might experiment with lesbian sex even if they generally prefer men.) I don't think a prostitute would have that kind of negative reaction to having sex with an unattractive man. If they were promiscuous before they became prostitutes, they're already used to frequent sex. To varying degrees, they just tune it out.
You don't think they have a negative reaction to having sex with an unattractive man? Do you really think females evolved to not give a shit about spending 9 months impregnated with a poor-quality mate in an evolutionary environment where they probably died in their 30s and had limited time to reproduce? Sex is a big deal for women for a reason. It represents a huge potential investment. Sure, they have brains so they're able to figure out that they can avoid getting pregnant, but the underlying instincts are what is giving them pleasure and pain. And surprise, surprise, women enjoy sex with attractive men:
They have suggested that the female coital orgasm may aid women in selecting partners with “good genes,” as women are more likely to experience coital orgasm with men they find to be more physically and sexually attractive partners (Shackelford, 2000; Baker & Bellis, 2003; Thornhill, Gangestad, & Comer, 1995).

Your data shows nothing of the sort. That was exactly my point. It shows that if a woman is abused, she has a higher than average chance of becoming a prostitute. It doesn't show what percentage of prostitutes were abused. It doesn't even imply much about it. If you think about that carefully, you'll understand the distinction I'm making here.
First of all we don't have access to the data in the NIH study but it may very well show that. In any case, I've now gone out of my way to find another study that to prove something that I have hunch you didn't really find surprising. If that's the case, it was pretty disingenuous of you to protest in the hopes that I wouldn't find anything else.

My default assumption is that when someone engages in an activity, especially when they're getting paid for it, that it was their choice.
And you could assume that homeless people like living without jobs on the street because they don't have to work and get get fed by agencies and charities. And someone could point out the high rates of mental illness among the long-term homeless. And then you could argue that the study doesn't show that all of them are mentally ill or something to that effect...

You have a pretty bad double-standard here. Somehow in this internet discussion forum, you are requiring people to prove with statistics some pretty basic positions about sexual abuse among prostitutes. But when it comes to your rosy description of upscale escorts who are enjoying sex and making money while doing it, you offer zero evidence and still have the audacity to claim I'm just basing thing off of CSI when I've linked to actual studies. Your pretext for doing this was apparently that I have the burden of proof, but this isn't a legal discussion where burden of proof is set by case law or statute. The reality is that you are making a positive claim just as much as I am. The only difference is I have cited studies supporting my common-sense positions while you have cited none.
 
Last edited:

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
In my experience, this is simply not true. Yes, you will find self-proclaimed feminists who argue that prostitution is exploitation, and yes, Craig's view is narrow-minded and based on a bizarre interpretation of morality.

Well, aren't you... close-minded and bizarre. And ignorant. I'm a bit surprised, while I don't know your posts well, I didn't remember you being that bad.

Why don't you try to back up your attack? Some people, you expect cluess from - note no waste of time responding to some - not much to go on since you don't offer any argument.

In fact I agree with most of your post, other than your less than informed soft-sell of the legalized brothels in Nevada, which are still more exploitave of the women, IMO, than you understand - though they are less bad than many of the other prostitutes' situtations, just not the 'empowered, harmless' thing you can do no better commentary on than express your ick factor about 'daddy complex'.

Your blather about my post is tedious to deal with. I wouldn't mind if you just leave it where I point that out, since I'm not expecting much of a response given the post so far.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
No, I mentioned that I know of self-proclaimed feminists who espouse that view. I was merely pointing out that the trend within the feminist community seems to be a greater acceptance of expressive female sexuality and the idea that women can be involved in the sex trades without it being exploitative. Andrea Dworkin was an extremist in every sense of the word, and her brand of radical feminism is hardly representative of most modern feminism. I mean, Jesus God, the woman said "all sex is rape;" that's hardly a progressive stance to take on women's sexuality.

Dworkin was largely covered by the media the way Fox covers a Jeremiah Wright, not for real discussion so much as to be the foil for their agenda, a spectacle.

Her views were extreme and flawed IMO; they also had some truth to them. You need to remember it wasn't until recent decades rape was recognized as possible in marriage.

The idea of 'exploitation' is often under-appreciated. I've read diaries of slave-owners who felt that slaves must be happy and love them as they were so well treated.

How many people to this day laugh while mimicking the Vietnamese whore telling US soldiers 'me love you long time' - I heard this days ago - without actually considering the exploitation of the women - more likely girls - doing it that was damaging to them sexually, where it was something they had to endure to survive, how they were exploiting the poverty of the women for gratification of their lust, treating them like trash instead of any dignity - indeed, sometimes humiliating them as part of the 'entertainment'.

Much of the 'liberation' about the sex trade is debatable; it's a little like the perverse right-wing mentality that might say 'who are YOU arrogant liberal to tell a black man he can't sell himself into slavery, if he chooses to? You are denying him that freedom and power to do what he wants!' That's sophistry - playing games with 'freedom' while ignoring the actual exploitation going on. A less extreme example is how they mask the exploitatin of labor denying the benefits of organized unions by calling it 'right to work laws'.

See, they aren't trying to shift power from the workers to the employers, to lower labor costs and increase profits for owners - they're protecting workers' RIGHT to work.

On the one hand, it can be pretty easily arguued about the exploitation in the sex trade, an it's almost inherent where women are doing sexual things not because they want to - if they did, they could for free any time - but for money, which plays to economic inequality. It's generally based on lies - with both parties degraded, women lying about the customer being attractive (implicitly or explicitly) - the more they pay, the better the lying - where a cheap sex act doesn't bother much - because the woman wants money.

Think about it. If I told YOU you are going to spend tonight performing intimate sexual acts for a variety of partners' pleasure you don't know and might be repulsed by, and you agree for the money - prostitutes largely come to hate men, naturally, as a result frequently and are widely contemptuous of their johns - how would you like it?

It's more an ignorant ideology - the same kind that likes to say 'meth use is a free choice' turning it into teir libertarian ideology - to try to view it as just some 'free choice'.

And feminists can sometimes do the same thing for their ideology.

On the other hand, as a practical matter - one could argue about 'less exploitave', one could argue that sex work is 'less bad' than some things for these women. There are situations which are more and osme that are less harmful and exploitave. England has an interesting situation with some legalized prostitution where the women seem to almost be more entrepeneurial - where the 'freedom' argument becomes more relevant.

You get into issues where it's not just 'sex workers' where this exists - when a rich man and pretty young woman marry, are they using each other to a good degree, where she is expected to provide sexual pleausure and him money for her - where it's not all that different an arrangement, even if prettied up as marriage? A woman going on a date and sleeping with the guy can be 'empowered sexual freedom' - but how many times is that linked to 'in exchange for an expensive date'?

I could go on about discussing the lay of the land - no pun intended - from sex slaves and pimped drug addicts to $5000/night escort making well into sex figures.

But we get to the point of where basically a lot of people - partly from ignorance, partly from a desire to not appreciate the exploitave nature of doing what they want - don't care to look at the issue of exploitation. Ideology can be a bit blinding also, stripping the human issues and turning it into market issues - not entirely wrongly. It's not jus sex that has these issues. Remember 'bumfights' for an especially exploitave example, throwing a few dollars at desparate substance abusers for them to degradingly hit each other?

Of course that was their 'free choice' in the 'labor market'.

At this point, some will appreciate the different sides of the issue, and some will not. Frankly, I'd say that some people *doing the work* don't always appreciate some of the effects - it's not that hard to find one 'porn star' who has nothing but good to say about it, making her wealthy and giving her fame she enjoys doing what she likes - and another 'former porn star', who might have been that same one, who looks at it differently later.

Harping on it being her 'freedom' can sometimes be nothing more than a producer selfishly manipulating her to overcome resistance to making him money.

You can both support her 'freedom' to choose it, and view it as exploitave, as well.

When we watch thrill sport people risk their lives for us to enjoy - when the guy is paralyzed from a motorcycle crash trying to jump buses - is there not something 'exploitave' about the exchange of him choosing to get the money and fame for doing it, but paying such a heavy price? That can be debated, from one side saying it's immoral to the other saying it's absolutely legitimate and just fine.

It's hard to say that young Vietnamese girl selling sex to avoid starvation wasn't horribly exploited - but who's to say it wasn't her best choice in terrible conditions? It'd be easy to praise the soldier who refused to exploit her - but his small amount of money could be essential to that girl and her family. There's a problem in that situation.

The soldier himself could be said to be exploited - paid a few dollars to risk his life and kill people he doesn't know for some powerful interests.

The human issues in the sex trade worker and the soldier (violence worker) aren't entirely different - and both subject to being prettied up (sexy, 'honor of serving nation').

And both have a lot of disillusioned people who served in those trades.

Again, some people can better appreciate these issues than others. You so far have put yourself in the latter group, 'narrow-minded'.

Of course to the ignorant who don't understand the exploitation, claims of it might sound 'bizarre', just as marital rape once sounded 'bizarre' to most Americans.

There's a whole 'empowerment ideology' in feminism that makes some people money. Are they 'right' or 'wrong' to focus on sex as 'empowering'? Who knows, they make some bucks.

One could argue that such feminist authors are exploiting the sex workers they talk about.

Just as Dworkin did for raising some issues for people to either agree with or love to attack.

How much sexual activity in society has 'exploitative' elements to it, ones in which something more than fluids are exchanged - if not money or material things, simply 'not wanting to deal with the person's complaing about not getting sex', or 'performing their expected role in exchange for the security of marriage', or to improve their partner's mood to get something they want, and so on? At what point is sex being 'used' so commonplace that the exploitave issue is ignored?

And isn't even 'good sex' somewhat using one another? How many people agree to long-term sexual arrangements where they please another but are not plseased?

Sex isn't generally altruistic. Singles places are filled with proof of frustrated guys who will agree there's not as much altruism as they'd like.

And given the economic inequalities that contribute to women being 'paid', more explicitly or less explicitly, for sex, don't see a lot of altruistic guys giving them money for nothing.

This leads to a lot more acceptance for 'cleaner' sex trade; it's the broken street prostitute, almost always an addict, powerless, at risk for disease and violence - making money for a pimp who beats her and plays on her emotions, who elicits especially strong concern for exploitation. You know, San Francisco does a good thing. First time johns are exposed - as criminal punishment - to education on the life of the street prostitute. Former prostitutes talk to them.

It helps them appreciate the ugly exploitave nature and think twice about it - and many or most seem to feel bad after understanding better and be turned off to repeating it.

Save234
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
Tough subject.

The problem is simple. This is something that is easily abused.

We may be getting to a point where it can become a "respectable career", but not today.

There are too many odd factors that make this up to make it almost impossible to call it, truly, a "profession" (any moreso than thief or liar).

I am not directly equating them, however. I think that in a generation or two, depending on the swings of the moral pendulum and the progress in science, that we may see a profound redefinition in this arena, but not today. It will always have, at least faintly, that tinge of immorality attached to it.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
I didn't say it's impossible to make a free decision to enter prostitution, however that would be extraordinary (uncommon in other words) and I haven't seen you give any evidence for a case like that. To me, it's like saying that an attractive straight young man with other career opportunities could choose to whore himself out to gay johns because it could make a lot of money. (And I choose to add the homosexual aspect here to stress the fact that it wouldn't be enjoyable to the man, which is something that can be hard for straight men to imagine when thinking of sex.) Sure, it's possible, but have you ever met a man who would really make a decision like that in the end? I haven't.

Here's one. I probably wouldn't do receptive anal sex because it's dangerous (WRT perforated colon), but I would do insertive anal sex, oral sex, etc. if it was legal, safe, and I could make good money doing it.

While the sex probably would not be that enjoyable, if the John was a nice guy, I could take some satisfaction and enjoyment from providing companionship to a lonely person.

FWIW, I was never abused as a child or anything like that.

Thing is, I bet if it was legal and safe, rates would fall to the point that I wouldn't consider it worth it anymore.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Well, aren't you... close-minded and bizarre. And ignorant. I'm a bit surprised, while I don't know your posts well, I didn't remember you being that bad.

Why don't you try to back up your attack? Some people, you expect cluess from - note no waste of time responding to some - not much to go on since you don't offer any argument.

In fact I agree with most of your post, other than your less than informed soft-sell of the legalized brothels in Nevada, which are still more exploitave of the women, IMO, than you understand - though they are less bad than many of the other prostitutes' situtations, just not the 'empowered, harmless' thing you can do no better commentary on than express your ick factor about 'daddy complex'.

Your blather about my post is tedious to deal with. I wouldn't mind if you just leave it where I point that out, since I'm not expecting much of a response given the post so far.
My apologies if you feel I have misrepresented your position. I was primarily responding to this statement you made: "It being degrading and objectifying to both people involved is a moral issue." That's your interpretation of the moral conflict of prostitution, and I take issue with that statement; I don't believe that prostitution is inherently degrading to either party, and while it can easily be seen as objectification, objectification is not universally negative. I believe that the negative stigma associated with prostitution is merely a product of the puritan roots of our culture. That, combined with an outdated method of viewing women's sexuality, is responsible for the view that prostitution is inherently immoral, and I simply don't support that.

I know a couple women who have worked in the sex trades; exotic dancing, pornography and escort services (and we all know what that's a euphemism for). None of these women did it because they felt it was their only option; they legitimately enjoyed doing it. It gave them a chance to not only express their sexuality, but turn it into a very lucrative trade. They liked having sex and they thought it was fantastic that they could get paid to be seen as sex objects. This is counter to your claim that "women are doing sexual things not because they want to - if they did, they could for free any time - but for money, which plays to economic inequality;" the women I know who have been involved in the sex trade wanted to be there. Why give something away for free if someone is willing to pay? That's acceptable theory for every commodity in the world; why not sex? Because of morality? Where's the logic in that? As George Carlin put it: "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. So why isn't it legal to sell fucking?"

I'm certainly not arguing that exploitation isn't a problem in the industry; it is. But a lot of that is because of how the industry is viewed. We've made it shameful to go to strip clubs and illegal to pay for sex; that means people are going to hide it, treat it as a lower profession and allow abuses that we wouldn't accept from more reputable industries. In places where the sex trade is not viewed as something to be ashamed of and women have more power, these abuses are not as widespread. The best thing we can do for the industry is legalize and regulate it rather than leave it in the hands of abusive pimps; it'd be safer for everyone involved. But we also need to change the social stigma associated with the sex trades. If we continue to view them as immoral or dirty, no substantial changes can ever be made.

Women like sex. People like to get paid for activities they already enjoy doing. Men like sex. People are willing to pay for activities they enjoy doing. Combine those facts and it's no wonder prostitution has been around since the dawn of human history. You're never going to stop it, regardless of how you view the morality of the activity. Might as well legalize it so we can help protect the safety of the women involved in the industry, as well as the safety of the male clientele. It's delusional to think that we can counter natural instincts by viewing life through a lens of morality based on the misapprehension that women shouldn't enjoy sex.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0

I'm going to confine my response to addressing the contents of your link here. Discussing empirical data is about the last remaining thing that can possibly be fruitful in this discussion, since clearly the opinions we're exchanging aren't changing each other's minds.

The link is describing statistics related to a sample of 55 prostitutes who sought help from a support group for prostitutes who want to leave the profession. I shouldn't have to explain why that is not a representative sample of prostitutes. It's like saying, 93% of women who complain to the police about being raped were actually raped. Therefore, 93% of all women have been raped. I think we can safely assume that those prostitutes who seek help from a group like that have probably been victimized or they wouldn't be seeking help to begin with. If you're going to make a determination about the circumstances and backgrounds of prostitutes in general, a survey needs to be conducted of randomly selected prostitutes from a fair cross-section of the business, from street level up to high priced escorts, not a sample of prostitutes who are only answering the survey questions because they were there to complain of abuse in the first place.

- wolf
 
Last edited:

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
I'm going to confine my response to addressing the contents of your link here. Discussing empirical data is about the last remaining thing that can possibly be fruitful in this discussion, since clearly the opinions we're exchanging aren't changing each other's minds.

The link is describing statistics related to a sample of 55 prostitutes who sought help from a support group for prostitutes who want to leave the profession. I shouldn't have to explain why that is not a representative sample of prostitutes. It's like saying, 93% of women who complain to the police about being raped were actually raped. Therefore, 93% of all women have been raped. I think we can safely assume that those prostitutes who seek help from a group like that have probably been victimized or they wouldn't be seeking help to begin with. If you're going to make a determination about the circumstances and backgrounds of prostitutes in general, a survey needs to be conducted of randomly selected prostitutes from a fair cross-section of the business, from street level up to high priced escorts, not a sample of prostitutes who are only answering the survey questions because they were there to complain of abuse in the first place.

- wolf

+1
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
In the real world, there are just too many problems with prostitution to be widely acceptable. But If you isolate the profession from the crime and the results of its illegality, there are still a few issues.

Although the sale of sex as a service may be no more immoral than paying someone to say give you a bath, or wipe your ass. One has to wonder a few things:

1. Who is buying the service? A large portion, if not the majority of Johns are married. Seeking sex outside of the marriage is not likely something the spouse has agreed to.
2. What kind of emotional scars causes most prostitutes into the business. It like selling something to a mentally handicaped individual at auction. They may be willing to buy a pack of gum for $100 but should you sell it to them. In this case, they may be willing to sell you this service but are you taking advantage of some psychologic trauma.
3. Statistically, a prostitute is likely to contract some STD's even with the use of condoms. As far as a public health issue, condoms are not enough to minimize the transmission rates to prevent a concern, esp to secondary contacts, wife, gf etc.
4. It is likely that this profession would be an easy way to exploit the poor.
5. Even before the criminalization of prostitution, many prostitutes engaged it criminal behaviour, due to the comprimized situation of the john.
6. Prostitution lends itself to victimization, and abuse of the prostitutes, due to the hormonal and psychologic drives of Johns.

Even where it is legal and regulated prostitution still has some problems. That said it probably should be legal to allow for regulation and to minimize the comorbid criminal activity.
 

Gintaras

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2000
1,892
1
71
We are not animals. We should strive to rise above this lower level thinking.

Human are just one of spieces living on this planet and not most intelligent.

No need to insult an animal is you consider yourself being not an one of animals.

Need to watch more a Nature - different spieces and how they live.
Birds are way above of human species. Swans in family have way greater bonds than prolly few human spieces have.
Need to look, how some(maybe most of them) birds take care of their youngsters, that no human nowadays will do.

Human Iltelligence Is A Lethal Mutation:

http://www.chomsky.info/talks/20100930.htm
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Does the prostitute necessarily find it degrading?

Aren't there some "ranches" in Nevada? Go find out the opinions of the men and women working there.

Immoral in the religious sense. Outside of that, STDs is one reason...but the ranches in Nevada have STRICT regulations to follow for testing apparently. If we're going to allow strip clubs, I don't see why prostitution should be blocked out, given proper regulation.

Also, I used to call myself a republican...anymore, I'm a moderate...so sick of religion guiding that entire effing party.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
We should be more like lions. When a new male takes over a pride, he kills all the cubs. After doing so, all the female lions go into heat and want him to make new cubs with them.

Nature is awesome, right?
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |