Why is saving money so hard?

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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
that depends on what expenses you had to incur as a homeowner, and whether or not your house appreciated. See post #248.

Do you not think the landlord passes his 'homeowner' expenses on to his tenants in the form of higher rent?

Nah...couldn't be.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Do you not think the landlord passes his 'homeowner' expenses on to his tenants in the form of higher rent?

Nah...couldn't be.

You can only pass on so many expenses before your tenant moves to the apartment complex next door. Like that tenant that hasn't paid his rent in 6 months and the LL has spent a year evicting? Yeah, the LL is eating that.

When I was doing tax returns, I saw just as many people losing money from RE investing as people who made money.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
You can only pass on so many expenses before your tenant moves to the apartment complex next door. Like that tenant that hasn't paid his rent in 6 months and the LL has spent a year evicting? Yeah, the LL is eating that.

When I was doing tax returns, I saw just as many people losing money from RE investing as people who made money.

You don't think the apartment complex next door will pass on their expenses to the tenants? Sure, some people will technically lose money by renting but most people will not. I can see very few instances in which renting over the long run will turn out better than owning.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
I can see the appeal of renting for a single or a couple without kids. But for families I can't see the appeal unless you know you're only there short-term.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
You don't think the apartment complex next door will pass on their expenses to the tenants? Sure, some people will technically lose money by renting but most people will not. I can see very few instances in which renting over the long run will turn out better than owning.

1 hypothetical example:

Apartment Complex A eats 30k in expenses, on top of normal operating expenses
Apartment Complex B only has normal operating expenses

Both complexes must set their rates at market rate. Complex A will eat the 30k in expenses because they cannot raise their rents to cover these additional, unexpected expenses w/o losing tenants.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
1 hypothetical example:

Apartment Complex A eats 30k in expenses, on top of normal operating expenses
Apartment Complex B only has normal operating expenses

Both complexes must set their rates at market rate. Complex A will eat the 30k in expenses because they cannot raise their rents to cover these additional, unexpected expenses w/o losing tenants.

I suppose that neither apartment complex factors in expenses into their monthly rental rates? They assume things will never break so they don't build that in?

Not very good business managers if you ask me.

Again, over 30 years....market rate tends to go up. My home payment goes to (insurance/taxes) and generally appreciates in value.

Of course, anything can happen. With mortgages harder to get over the last 8 or so years, home prices were driven down but rent prices were driven up (because people couldn't get approved for mortgages).
 
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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
I suppose that neither apartment complex factors in expenses into their monthly rental rates? They assume things will never break so they don't build that in?

Not very good business managers if you ask me.

That's what "normal operating expenses are". Look, let's look at this at the 9000 foot level - you have 2 houses/complexes/whatever with the same costs, except one incurs 30k in additional costs that the other one doesn't. You can't keep blinding passing on costs because at some point you won't have any tenants cuz they'll move to a different complex.

All it takes is 1 dbag to really fuck you up. Like this guy:

http://www.dailybreeze.com/governme...own-faces-second-eviction-for-not-paying-rent
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
That's what "normal operating expenses are". Look, let's look at this at the 9000 foot level - you have 2 houses/complexes/whatever with the same costs, except one incurs 30k in additional costs that the other one doesn't. You can't keep blinding passing on costs because at some point you won't have any tenants cuz they'll move to a different complex.

All it takes is 1 dbag to really fuck you up. Like this guy:

http://www.dailybreeze.com/governme...own-faces-second-eviction-for-not-paying-rent

Still haven't convinced me that over the long run, it's better to rent than to buy. I'm sure that apartment complexes build in expenses into their rent. Sure, there are stories like yours but if there were enough of them, the rents would raise EVERYWHERE to reflect that. If there's a risk, it's going to cost more.

If renting were better than buying, everyone would be doing it and rents would then skyrocket.
 

Sheep

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2006
1,275
0
71
$10k/mo after takehome is a lot of money and makes living comfortably very easy with quite a few luxuries. trying to act like it's "nothing" is pretty assanine.

This. I make just shy of six digits and I'm able to save a good chunk of that while still occasionally splurging on vacations and other luxuries that most people would consider stupidly expensive. I'd never characterize the amount of money I make as "nothing" or "barely getting by", nevermind $10k/month.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Still haven't convinced me that over the long run, it's better to rent than to buy. I'm sure that apartment complexes build in expenses into their rent. Sure, there are stories like yours but if there were enough of them, the rents would raise EVERYWHERE to reflect that. If there's a risk, it's going to cost more.

If renting were better than buying, everyone would be doing it and rents would then skyrocket.

that's why my answer this entire time has been "it depends".
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,856
1,048
126
that depends on what expenses you had to incur as a homeowner, and whether or not your house appreciated. See post #248.

Are you kidding? You're down like $60k after 5 years of renting and then you go and buy a house. The same risks (depends are the same risks) and expenses apply for that house. I didn't spend $60k first, you did, then did the house thing going down the same path I've already traveled. Who is better off?

What is your age range and family situation and are you renting the rest of your life?
 
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HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,832
38
91
Are you kidding? You're down like $60k after 5 years of renting and then you go and buy a house. The same risks (depends are the same risks) and expenses apply for that house. I didn't spend $60k first, you did, then did the house thing going down the same path I've already traveled. Who is better off?

What is your age range and family situation and are you renting the rest of your life?

Agree. Although not everyone is ready to buy a house before renting for 5+ years. I know quite a few young guys that just live very unsteady lifestyles with frequent job changes, sudden whims of moving or just don't have the best of credit yet. if they bought a house now they would probably just lose it and be worse off financially.
Some people are just better off renting until their lifestyles change to reflect a better home owner.
 

xeemzor

Platinum Member
Mar 27, 2005
2,599
1
71
Are you kidding? You're down like $60k after 5 years of renting and then you go and buy a house. The same risks (depends are the same risks) and expenses apply for that house. I didn't spend $60k first, you did, then did the house thing going down the same path I've already traveled. Who is better off?

What is your age range and family situation and are you renting the rest of your life?

What if you had to move to get a better paying job? What if you bought in 2007 and lost a ton of money? What if you need to travel a lot?

There are many, many hard to quanitfy reasons not to buy a house. Unless you are ready to settle down and build a family it's not worth it for most people.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126

30's, renting, no plans to buy in this market.

Why can't you folks just accept "it depends". There are people in this very thread that admitted buying a house was a fucking mistake and they lost shitloads of money on it. I know people who lost fuckloads of money on houses. I also know people who made a killing.
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
30's, renting, no plans to buy in this market.

Why can't you folks just accept "it depends". There are people in this very thread that admitted buying a house was a fucking mistake and they lost shitloads of money on it. I know people who lost fuckloads of money on houses. I also know people who made a killing.

Parents are like that... To them, renting == throwing money away, no numbers will ever suggest otherwise. This despite them having friends who lost shit tons of money recently on properties they bought over a decade ago. The 2008-ish crash never happened either.
 

mvbighead

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2009
3,793
1
81
Like Property taxes? Housing repair costs? HOA fees? Interest?

Generally speaking, most of those items are small expenses. We once had HOA fees, but I can't recall the specific amount, but I know it wasn't much. Interest is generally baked into the mortgage, so long as you know you're monthly payment, meh.

All I know is, one of my brothers went through a divorce. He had to sell the family home, and decided to move back to the town we grew up in. He found a fairly crappy (but livable) house to the tune of 30k-40k (mighta been less). He fixed it up, it kept him busy, and now he rents it out while living in a new house with his new wife. That house was a repo, and they saved significantly and have but some blood and sweat into and turned it into a nice home.

My brother is not a well to do sort. He has to pay child support and things of that nature which further limit his income. Dealing with renters is a pain in the ass for him, especially as he now lives 30 minutes from the place, but he has an investment that has value... and it has more value now than when he bought it.

I would agree with the logic that anyone looking for a place to live for a short period of time is likely much better off renting, but it you plan to stay somewhere for 3-5 years or better, you can probably find a nice little place in a smallish town nearby the big town you decide to work in, and have an asset that has value at the end of your stay. May not be right for everyone, but with renting you are simply paying someone else. If you don't report any problems, they're simply collecting a check and paying the mortgage and pocketing the rest. I'd like to be the guy earning an investment and pocketing dividends in that situation. Sure, some repairs will be a pain in the ass, but many of them are doable for most folks, or can be contracted out relatively cheaply.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
ns1 lives in LA. You get a 1090 sq ft condo with a $290 hoa for 410k in a pretty good area. You can be in a OK area and pay 350k for 1500 sq ft and 250 hoa. If you want to be in a good area its gonna cost you 750k to a million.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,081
9
81
All has been explained. The best way to make a lot of money is to inherit it. You are so out of touch with reality because you haven't really had to make it on your own. It's so much harder to make it in our current economy then it used to be.

While he didn't inherit the job directly I'm sure that the contacts he gained through his wealthy in-laws didn't hurt. I would be genuinely shocked if Safeway's success was entirely self-made.

Firstly: Hey asshole, fuck you. Secondly: Read my posts.

I came from a very modest household, $40k to $60k combined income for most of my childhood. I took out loans and worked as a computer lab proctor to pay my way through my MS EE and law school. I decided to sit for the USPTO registration exam to register as a patent agent during my 1L year in order to make myself more marketable for summer internships. I kicked ass at my T14 law school, summa cum laude, and got a big law internship and eventual job based on a recommendation from an intellectual property adjunct professor who happened to be partner at this firm. I made the move to the patent litigation boutique despite criticism that I was joining the enemy and giving up a solid paycheck. I left that firm and started my own patent litigation consulting firm and began brokering patent transactions and negotiating patent infringement-related license agreements. Where is this magic fairy dust that makes this path easy?

The fuck did I inherit? Nothing but a genetic risk for heart-related issues from my dad. My parents are not dead and, when they do pass, I will split an exceedingly modest estate with my sister. It'll be a drop in the bucket. If you need to rationalize that everyone more successful than you must have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth, you're lying to yourself in order to avoid having to deal with your wasted potential and lack of motivation.

My in-laws were not my in-laws at the time. They didn't give me a damn cent. They also didn't give my wife money to pay for college. She had to take out loans to better appreciate and value her collegiate education. They paid for the wedding. Thanks! (No really, thanks.)

Harder to make it in this economy? I fucking made it in this economy. Patent law activity and profitability shot through the roof as other revenue streams dried up. Corporations began to investigate new revenue streams using existing assets.

How old do you think I am? I'll tell you - not old. I have a 7 month old son.
 
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OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
This thread made me feel broke and now I don't eat out. I came home and snacked on carrots that didn't expire yet and made eggs and toast :awe:.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Firstly: Hey asshole, fuck you. Secondly: Read my posts.

I came from a very modest household, $40k to $60k combined income for most of my childhood. I took out loans and worked as a computer lab proctor to pay my way through my MS EE and law school. I kicked ass at my T14 law school, summa cum laude, and got a big law internship and eventual job based on a recommendation from an intellectual property adjunct professor who happened to be partner at this firm. I made the move to the patent litigation boutique despite criticism that I was joining the enemy and giving up a solid paycheck. I left that firm and started my own patent litigation consulting firm and began brokering patent transactions and negotiating patent infringement-related license agreements. Where is this magic fairy dust that makes this path easy?

The fuck did I inherit? Nothing but a genetic risk for heart-related issues from my dad. My parents are not dead and, when they do pass, I will split an exceedingly modest estate with my sister. It'll be a drop in the bucket.

My in-laws were not my in-laws at the time. They didn't give me a damn cent. They also didn't give my wife money to pay for college. She had to take out loans to better appreciate and value her collegiate education. They paid for the wedding. Thanks! (No really, thanks.)

Harder to make it in this economy? I fucking made it in this economy. Patent law activity and profitability shot through the roof as other revenue streams dried up. Corporations began to investigate new revenue streams using existing assets.

How old do you think I am? I'll tell you - not old. I have a 7 month old son.

Well you got hired in law so you must be like 35.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,081
9
81
Well you got hired in law so you must be like 35.

Younger. Like I said, patent law never took a hit. It grew. Even during the height of the attorney layoffs, regional firms without intellectual property practice groups were creating such groups by acquiring patent boutiques. This is when I got in, when it was impossible for my peers to get summer internships or get a big law job.

The number of summer internship spots at my eventual employer fell from 32 the summer before I entered law school to 2 the summer of my 1L year. Both interns were in the intellectual property practice area, which was a very small practice group within the firm. Why? Because that's where the interns would be most profitable.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Younger. Like I said, patent law never took a hit. It grew. Even during the height of the attorney layoffs, regional firms without intellectual property practice groups were creating such groups by acquiring patent boutiques. This is when I got in, when it was impossible for my peers to get summer internships or get a big law job.

Well didnt you get lucky
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,081
9
81
Well didnt you get lucky

To quote your signature: Yes. It's true.

I didn't even want to go to law school, but I couldn't let my wife have a doctorate and me merely a masters! Then, once there, I was shoehorned into the intellectual property field. I had very little insight into the legal market and the marketability of an engineering background. Turns out that I was forced into the right practice area at the right time. Well, several years too late to the good ole days of patent enforcement, but the right time nonetheless.
 
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