Why is the speed of light our "speed limit"?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: EricMartello
Ah, I'm not trying to disprove anything. I'm merely stating that there is no definitive answer, and I am saying that a theory is just that - a theory. My first answer to the OP is still the same: WE DON'T KNOW! But it sure is fun to guess, right? I am sure that stuff that we don't know does matter, but going all religious zealot and "putting faith in theories" when you're working with science is not the way to make progress. Einstein set the limits for his theories, and since we have not been able to test any of those limits, it's only logical that - to date - his theories "check out".

You are still wrong. There IS a definitive answer, and we DO know why there is a speed limit.

Here is a similar example with a different context.

Since you like to claim that relativity is "just a theory", let's look at the 2nd LAW of thermodynamics.

The 2nd law basically states that there is a limit to the efficiency you can achieve with a heat engine that produces work. Many kooks have tried to patent perpetual motion machines which violate the limit, without understanding why they can't work. They believe that the theory may be incomplete, or they have discovered some way of violating it, and they criticize scientists that disprove their invention by saying they are just putting faith in the theory and are unable to accept that it may be wrong.

The 2nd law is basically an extension of an observation that has never been proven wrong because it is based on logic -- that heat cannot flow spontaneously from a cold object to a hot object. The reason why this holds true is because of the rules of nature -- when fast moving molecules of a hot object strike slow moving molecules of a cold object, the fast molecules lose energy to the slow molecules. This is based on newton's laws, e.g. momentum transfer of collisions. The fast moving molecules can never GAIN energy by hitting slower molecules. Therefore a hot object can not gain energy from a cold object (without work input). Based on the mathematical statement of this logic, you can derive the 2nd law.

The explanation of relativity and the speed of light works the same way. It starts with a logical premise, which has been proven over and over with observations and has never been disproved -- that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames. From the mathematical statement of this fact, the relativistic equations which put a speed limit on matter can be derived.

Just because relativity is "only a theory" doesn't mean that it will inevitably be proven wrong at any point. It certainly may be, just like the laws of thermodynamics. We may in the future encounter some situation where conservation of energy is violated, who knows. But since we have countless observations with no disproof of the theory holding true, you have to make a pretty damned good argument to why you think relativity is wrong. [bJust saying "previous scientific theories have been proven wrong in the past" doesn't cut it in this case.[/b]
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: drebo
I don't know...maybe he has a point... By your own admission, the equations for kinetic energy can't explain what happens when v > c, and in fact the results don't make sense in that event (negative energy?). Maybe the equations and our understanding of the constants from which they were derived are incomplete.

If you have -3 apples, or 1/0 apples, or i apples, what does that mean? Maybe our understanding of apples is incomplete. Or maybe they are complete, and it's just that in order to describe some phenomena, we invented a language capable of abstract concepts which don't apply to physical quantities.
 

EricMartello

Senior member
Apr 17, 2003
910
0
0
Originally posted by: PowerEngineer
However, it's not very often that "revolutionary" new theories actually contradict their predecessors. The speed of light was actually set as a constant (regardless of direction) by Maxwell's equations. Relativity was Einstien's explanation of how Newtonian ideas had to be modified to accommodate it. Even so, Newton's equations continue to work very well -- as well today as they did in his time. With this in mind, I suggest that it's very unlikely that some new theory will suddenly make relativity "wrong" or remove the speed of light as a universal maximum.

Your suggestion that relativity hasn't been tested seems strange. Since its publication, scientists have been putting its predictions to the test. So far, it's passed every one. It seems to me that the very existence of nuclear weapons should make you think that Albert must have been on to something.

At this point, NEW data results from testing relativity would either show that it is correct, thereby giving it "law" status...or it would show that something unexpected happens, thus opening up more questions. To date we have not been able to truly test it simply because we do not have the capability to accelerate something to the speed of light. We can get close with some particle accelerators, but even in that instance, it is no secret that 'resistance' to acceleration is exponential - the same holds true for aerodynamics in terms of air resistance.

Your last comment is a logical fallacy. Einstein was a smart guy and did aid (with a bit of assistance) in the development of nukes, however it's worth noting that around the same time, the Japanese atomic bomb research was right around the same level - they actually knew enough to make a functional bomb, but were unable to do so in time. They had no input from Einstein, obviously...my point here being that a "celebrity scientist" isn't the only person capable of making breakthru discoveries.

Originally posted by: Foxery
That's not true. (Emphasis added) This is exactly what Particle Accelerators such as CERN do - we actually have moved small objects at speeds approaching c, and we have observed that they behave as the math predicts.

-Their mass does increase
-The energy required to push them faster does increase exponentially
-Their temporal reference frame does slow down

All of these things have been demonstrated exactly as Einstein said. You can't accuse us of "blindly following theories" when they HAVE been tested.

By the way, when I said you were welcome to prove it all wrong, I wasn't being sarcastic; science encourages new ideas, and you would become very famous if you could do this. So far, however.....

Bolded the key phrase there...speeds approaching c are not speeds equal to or greater than c.

I don't think science should be about proving things right or wrong. It should be able forming ideas based on what we DO know, and testing them to see what happens. This means that learning something should be a step, not a limit.

Here is another question to think about, and something that would support relativity's assertions:

Speed of Light = universal speed limit for matter.

OR IS IT?

- If something is moving, then TIME has to be a factor - because movement is measured with velocity (distance over TIME)?

- Time seems to slow down as c is approached, assuming that moving at c means time has stopped completely?

- It is suggested that accelerating matter to c requires 'infinite' energy.

You know what it sounds like to me? What we are perceiving as "moving at the speed of light" is the opposite. Maybe c represents "absolute lack of velocity". All matter in the universe is in motion at any given moment...that's what creates the illusion of time and space.

Why? If something isn't moving, time is no longer relevant...and it makes more sense that c would be a "limit" because it is not possible to move less than not at all.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
Originally posted by: EricMartello
Speed of Light = universal speed limit for matter.

OR IS IT?

- If something is moving, then TIME has to be a factor - because movement is measured with velocity (distance over TIME)?

- Time seems to slow down as c is approached, assuming that moving at c means time has stopped completely?

- It is suggested that accelerating matter to c requires 'infinite' energy.

Time does not seem to slow down as c is approached. It DOES slow down. This is verified by mathematics and numerous experiments. Hell, even our satellites account for this and correct its reference time with that of Earth. There is no perceptual trickery with this phenomena, its a verifiable fact. Because nothing with mass has ever reached c, we cannot know experimentally if time stops at c but the math, which perfectly supports time dilation and is verified with experimental data, predicts it so.

That same math, predicts it will take infinite energy for a mass to accelerate to c. The energy consumption towards the speed of c is verified experimentally, but once again, the point of c has never been attained because we have not had enough energy to do so.

Even some of the most violent energetic events in the universe have not ejected mass to c.

Also, you suggest that c represents 'lack of speed' in a timeless environment, asserting that if mass simply stopped moving, there would be no time but now you are trading off 1 impossibilty for another. Just because a macro object has stopped moving does not mean it's elementary particles have. Mass stops at absolute zero and that is something that has not happened nor experimentally done and, according to laws and mathematics, impossible.
 

PolymerTim

Senior member
Apr 29, 2002
383
0
0
Originally posted by: EricMartello
To date we have not been able to truly test it simply because we do not have the capability to accelerate something to the speed of light. We can get close with some particle accelerators, but even in that instance, it is no secret that 'resistance' to acceleration is exponential - the same holds true for aerodynamics in terms of air resistance.

I think this brings us back to the question I previously asked. How do you prove a fundamental limit?

As I understand it, we have a theory which has been tested by a multitude of experiments covering speeds ranging from 0 to 0.99c and it has held true over the entire range tested. This theory, using the same fundamental principles and equations, also states that nothing with mass can attain c and no information can be transferred at speed greater than c (I think I've got that straight).

But you seem to be implying that we can not accept this limit because our tests are not sufficient. But I don't think you are arguing with the tests so much as the theory. Either the energy required to get a mass to speed c is infinity or not. If it is infinity, then by definition the mass can never reach the speed c. If it is not then the physics of the system must somehow change between c and 0.99c (or however high it has been tested).

If that is your argument, then I would love to see your reasoning behind it, but I think it is pointless to argue that a fundamental limit can not be proved because you can't exceed it.
 

Super Nade

Member
Oct 5, 2005
149
0
0
He's asking a more fundamental question though. Why 2.9979(whatever)e8 and not half that number? Or twice that number? Why is it what it is?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows why the fine structure constant turns out to be approximately 1/137. It just is. No known theory seems to explain it without running into circular arguments.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: silverpig
Originally posted by: PolymerTim
Originally posted by: Biftheunderstudy
The really deep question is: why is c = 3x10^8?
I mean it doesn't have to be, its just defined that way because of the measurable fundamental constants that give rise to it. Namely the permeativity and the permeability of free space.

Interesting question, but I wouldn't put much into the actual number since it depends on units that researchers contrived out of convenience. It is important to remember what is a real correlation versus one with no meaning. It's kind of like all those doomsayers that predict the end of the world at every millenium/century/decade... You might argue that the year is a natural unit (has a physical basis), but the difference between 1999 years and 2000 years only seems tobe important because of our base ten counting system which, as far as I know, has no natural basis and therefor can not have a causal effect on the outcome.

So I agree with the question, but would reword it to ask how is this constant related to other observables and then learn about the connection between them. The number 3X10^8 really doesn't have any meaning itself since it changes with the units applied to it.

He's asking a more fundamental question though. Why 2.9979(whatever)e8 and not half that number? Or twice that number? Why is it what it is?

One of the fundamental questions of particle physics right now is why do subatomic particles have the masses that they do? Why is a proton 1836 (I hope I got that right) times heavier than an electron? They hope to answer that question with the LHC and Higgs, but the speed of light one is still interesting.

Originally posted by: Super Nade
He's asking a more fundamental question though. Why 2.9979(whatever)e8 and not half that number? Or twice that number? Why is it what it is?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows why the fine structure constant turns out to be approximately 1/137. It just is. No known theory seems to explain it without running into circular arguments.

I think that if we figure this whole "Planck" issue out, that could answer this question.

Here's a theory I came up with myself... I'll be brief; One of my big ideas is that if there is an absolute incremental nature to the fabric of space-time, then in the earliest moments of the universe, this very small distance-increment and time-increment would've been blown up to effect the nature of all the "vibrations" that permeate through our universe and the particles that make it up. If there is a bottom level "grid" to space-time (a universal smallest unit of measurement), then it would make sense that the relationships between particles would be rounded numbers according to our math, since our form of mathematics was a direct result of the universe we inhabit and the effects/particles/processes we observe...

The math that goes into string theory and the like would be directly effected by the first moments of the universe as we know it. According to the equations, strings vibrate in frequencies that show up to us as whole numbers. The vibrational pattern that was decided in the bang for ALL strings (even the theorized, but extinct super long strings, above microscopic length) creates all the known particles that we can play with. Bosons, gravitons, quarks, muons, etc. If the strings themselves vibrate at what appears to us as frequencies ending up as whole numbers, then the particles they create through said vibrational patters would also end up with whole number attributes...

For reference, the "Planck" is a unit of measurement that is believed to be the smallest unit of distance/time you can have. Further study is required, though... Much further study.

How does that sound? Bullshit? Interesting?
 

Super Nade

Member
Oct 5, 2005
149
0
0
I don't know anything about string theory, but AFAIK there is not a single shred of definitive experimental evidence that confirms it.

Regarding the original topic, we accept that the speed of light is a constant (experimentally proven) in vacuum and build our theories around it.

PS# One of the first things one ought to learn as a scientist is that there are many things we do not know and unraveling/understanding nature's secrets takes many lifetimes. Lose sight of this and science/understanding will decline.
 

PolymerTim

Senior member
Apr 29, 2002
383
0
0
Originally posted by: Super Nade
He's asking a more fundamental question though. Why 2.9979(whatever)e8 and not half that number? Or twice that number? Why is it what it is?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows why the fine structure constant turns out to be approximately 1/137. It just is. No known theory seems to explain it without running into circular arguments.

I think sometimes in scientific math we get nice round numbers because the things we are comparing are inherently related. In this case, I'm not really sure. It looks like the meter was originally based on a conveniently chosen fraction of the earths circumference. Even though it has been refined since then to ultimately be determined by the distance light travels in a vacuum, the rough number it approximates has not changed. So now I wonder how there happens to be a relationship between the speed of light and the circumference of the earth. Maybe I missed a step somewhere.

And now I find it funny that the speed of light, which is in part defined by the meter, is now the basis for the definition of the meter.

Of course, in some cases I think it is just coincidence.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,421
1,049
126
Originally posted by: PolymerTim
Originally posted by: Super Nade
He's asking a more fundamental question though. Why 2.9979(whatever)e8 and not half that number? Or twice that number? Why is it what it is?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows why the fine structure constant turns out to be approximately 1/137. It just is. No known theory seems to explain it without running into circular arguments.

I think sometimes in scientific math we get nice round numbers because the things we are comparing are inherently related. In this case, I'm not really sure. It looks like the meter was originally based on a conveniently chosen fraction of the earths circumference. Even though it has been refined since then to ultimately be determined by the distance light travels in a vacuum, the rough number it approximates has not changed. So now I wonder how there happens to be a relationship between the speed of light and the circumference of the earth. Maybe I missed a step somewhere.

And now I find it funny that the speed of light, which is in part defined by the meter, is now the basis for the definition of the meter.

Of course, in some cases I think it is just coincidence.
the mile is based on the length of some guys foot a long time ago. thus the speed of light in miles/sec is based on some guys foot? that is about what your argument is stating.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,659
7,892
126
It looks to me like they picked a time for for light to travel in a vacuum that gave the closest approximation of the earth measure, which was used earlier. Light traveling in a vacuum is reproducible, while the earth is constantly changing size/shape.

The mile was based off the distance of 1,000 paces, with 1 pace=2 steps.
 

Biftheunderstudy

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
375
1
81
To define something like this you need 2 things, distance and time. These two things need some sort of metric so that one can use consistent terminology for them. The choice of the metric is arbitrary but must be consistent, you can measure the speed of light in furlongs/fortnight for all scientists care. Ultimately, since basing the length of the meter off of the speed of light which is constant there is really only one thing which we need to define..namely time. Once you have time you can then get the length of the meter, a measure of volume from that length which you can then define the kilogram and so on. I worked at NRC-INMS in the optical frequency standards department and I remember seeing a table with all of the metric units on it, then there was the same table with all of the units which were not derived from time -- there were about 3 out of about 50. Even a lot of the US system is defined from SI units.
 

ajaidevsingh

Senior member
Mar 7, 2008
563
0
0
Logically it is but if you all know about STARTREKS warp that is a true idea folding space will make an object travel faster than light in p2p but not in the same plane...

Also Speed of light is our limit because if we try and go faster than light the molecules in the object would have lost bond and break apart "Dont confuse this statement with metal strength"
 

Super Nade

Member
Oct 5, 2005
149
0
0
Originally posted by: PolymerTim


I think sometimes in scientific math we get nice round numbers because the things we are comparing are inherently related. In this case, I'm not really sure. It looks like the meter was originally based on a conveniently chosen fraction of the earths circumference. Even though it has been refined since then to ultimately be determined by the distance light travels in a vacuum, the rough number it approximates has not changed. So now I wonder how there happens to be a relationship between the speed of light and the circumference of the earth. Maybe I missed a step somewhere.

And now I find it funny that the speed of light, which is in part defined by the meter, is now the basis for the definition of the meter.

Of course, in some cases I think it is just coincidence.

The fine structure constant is not merely a combination of various fundamental constants in a certain way. It has fundamental significance and has been experimentally measured many many times.
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/alpha.html

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/introduction.html
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |